Rumor: Bionicle's return in 2015

[Jakura Nuva]

 

Dude, it's not sexist. Saying women in general are gentler is a fact.

 

aaaaaaaaaaaaaand you're done. after that I don't think many people in this topic are going to back your claims.

I beg your pardon, but I edited my post.

And I can believe what I want, it doesn't make me sexist.

 

As a break from this annoying subject, hey, Eljay's on! Hi, Eljay!

Edited July 18, 2014 by Jakuura

[believe victims]

 

 

Dude, it's not sexist. Saying women in general are gentler is a fact.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaand you're done. after that I don't think many people in this topic are going to back your claims.

I beg you pardon, but I edited my post.

And I can believe what I want, it doesn't make me sexist.

 

 

You editing your post does not change the fact that you said that, you clearly believe that, that belief is sexist, and by extension so are you.

[-Windrider-]

And I can believe what I want, it doesn't make me sexist.

You can indeed believe whatever you want. But the administration and I will hold you accountable for your words. You need to be aware of the BZPower Rules and Guidelines, especially the points on intolerance and discrimination, before continuing to participate in this topic.

 

BZPower does not condone intolerance. If a member treats another member with disdain or contempt because of race, religious preference, gender, sexual orientation, national origin, or a similar quality or belief, the member will face administrative action up to and including banning if severe enough.

Edited July 18, 2014 by -Windrider-

[Jakura Nuva]

See Windrider's post above.

 

~Makaru

Edited July 18, 2014 by Makaru

[Lime Paradox]

While I agree that there is a distinction between Bionicle canon and what happens in the real world, using the words truth and fact to distinguish them is confusing, because in the real world they are often synonymous. Also your wording implies that truth does not exist in the real world, and while we are not allowed to get into that debate, I find the implication to be false. 

 

I'm going to have to agree with this bit solely because when bonesiii's topic was referred to as "truth" I assumed it was some sort of subtle SICK BURN regarding his "truthseeking" stuff so the actual explanation is kind of confusing and disappointing =(

[Mesonak]

So here's a random thought; I bet Makuta will be back if BIONICLE 2015 is a thing

 

Perhaps reincarnated as a spider

 

Makuta Arachnidax, if you will

 

-Mesonak

Edited July 18, 2014 by Meso Zehvor

[doodleloot]

So here's a random thought; I bet Makuta will be back if BIONICLE 2015 is a thing

 

Perhaps reincarnated as a spider

 

Makuta Arachnidax, if you will

 

-Mesonak

 

No thank you

[believe victims]

So here's a random thought; I bet Makuta will be back if BIONICLE 2015 is a thing

 

Perhaps reincarnated as a spider

 

Makuta Arachnidax, if you will

 

-Mesonak

 

If they bring back Makuta after we got an oversaturation of him written as sloppily as possible, I will be extremely disappointed.

[Eljay: Toa of Mangosteen]

 

 

Dude, it's not sexist. Saying women in general are gentler is a fact.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaand you're done. after that I don't think many people in this topic are going to back your claims.

I beg your pardon, but I edited my post.

And I can believe what I want, it doesn't make me sexist.

 

As a break from this annoying subject, hey, Eljay's on! Hi, Eljay!

 

 

Hi!

 

I swear, this topic is just the funniest thing on BZPower right now. If there is one thing the staff know how to do real well, it's let a topic get so far off topic because they support one side of an argument that it's quite literally entertaining to watch.

 

So, Bionicle. I wonder what would make people think that it's coming back next year... Interesting rumors, huh?

 

I would like to apologize for my former comments, as they were made in poor judgement and shouldn't have been posted. I sincerely apologize.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Eljay: Toa of Mangosteen

[Noxryn]

 

 

 

Dude, it's not sexist. Saying women in general are gentler is a fact.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaand you're done. after that I don't think many people in this topic are going to back your claims.

 

I beg your pardon, but I edited my post.

And I can believe what I want, it doesn't make me sexist.

 

As a break from this annoying subject, hey, Eljay's on! Hi, Eljay!

 

 

Hi!

 

I swear, this topic is just the funniest thing on BZPower right now. If there is one thing the staff know how to do real well, it's let a topic get so far off topic because they support one side of an argument that it's quite literally entertaining to watch.

 

So, Bionicle. I wonder what would make people think that it's coming back next year... Interesting rumors, huh?

 

 

Quite frankly, Eljay, I'm getting extremely tired of posts like this.

 

Just because you, personally, do not think a subject of discussion is valid does not make it so. It is completely and utterly germane to the topic at hand, and as a OBZPC, I'd expect a lot better from you when it comes to understanding that everyone in this community is allowed to discuss aspects of the series they have come to enjoy -- especially when pointing out flaws it had, and hopes for the future version to fix at least some of it (which this topic is about; Bionicle in 2015).

 

I'm not staff anymore, but I'm simply astounded by the complete and utter disregard for our other community members by your observation and attempt to invalidate their opinions.

 

Furthermore, you are not staff of this forum. You do not decide what is and is not appropriate for this topic: they do.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Kitania

[Makaru]

I swear, this topic is just the funniest thing on BZPower right now. If there is one thing the staff know how to do real well, it's let a topic get so far off topic because they support one side of an argument that it's quite literally entertaining to watch

I am getting sick of this.

 

Check back for all the many MANY posts that, while they disagree they are neither punished or amended. We have stated many MANY times WHY gender is allowed to be debated. And minus a few particular individuals (yes on BOTH SIDES) everyone has kept a calm head.

 

If you think I am not doing my job to the letter I am required, you are free to contact my boss and let him know.

 

Both a forum moderator AND a global moderator have asked that everyone follow the rules and remain civil. This is the last warning.

 

 

Say what you will about this discussion, this is the first time I've seen SERVER BUSY in forever.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Makaru

[Mesonak]

 

So here's a random thought; I bet Makuta will be back if BIONICLE 2015 is a thing

 

Perhaps reincarnated as a spider

 

Makuta Arachnidax, if you will

 

-Mesonak

 

If they bring back Makuta after we got an oversaturation of him written as sloppily as possible, I will be extremely disappointed.

 

 

I'll agree with that. A new villain is pretty much a requirement at this point, even if it was a reboot. We've had enough of Makuta.

 

-Mesonak

[Maphrox: Toa of Polygons]

I think Bionicle is pretty cool

 

I also think changing things up in an established franchise is pretty cool

 

Simple logic then dictates that Bionicle + changing things up = pretty cool + pretty cool = 2(pretty cool) which is roughly equal to cool.

 

So basically, I hope they do a reboot.

[Lielac]

No more Makuta! Except maybe Makuta Miserix, he's pretty cool. But Teridax? No. He's dead. He's dead, he was crushed, whatever was left of his antidermis was so scattered that it couldn't have coalesced, ding dong Makuta's dead let's get somebody else to be evil next time.

 

... even if on some level I think it would be amusing to think that the reason Lewa wasn't teleported out of the GSR control room with the group was because Makuta wanted to hijack his body as a backup plan. Because "Lewa getting hijacked by the enemy" is a running gag... buuuuuut I'm happy to see Teridax dead for good. So no. No more TerryMak, please. Except as a legendary figure in a reboot's mythology... but not an actual present force to be fought.

[doodleloot]

Now I know this probably won't happen, but..

If the new Bionicle was to be a continuation of the old series and start right back where we left off, I think something along the lines of an Agori-Matoran war could be kind of cool. According to the serials they didn't exactly trust each others after the reunion.

Edited July 18, 2014 by doodleloot

[GSR]

While I agree that there is a distinction between Bionicle canon and what happens in the real world, using the words truth and fact to distinguish them is confusing, because in the real world they are often synonymous. Also your wording implies that truth does not exist in the real world, and while we are not allowed to get into that debate, I find the implication to be false. 

 

In this case, however, the Bionicle story suggests that the group of women as a whole is expected to be more gentle than the group of men as a whole. Does a lack of familiarity with a stereotype make it less hurtful to the group that it's targeting? I'd argue that any explicit generalization of a group around a supposed tendency or trait is a stereotype, regardless of whether or not it is commonly considered to be one.

stereotype

[...]

3. a set form; convention.

4.

Sociology . a simplified and standardized conception or image invested with special meaning and heldin common by members of a group: 

The cowboy and Indian are American stereotypes.

Operative focus on the term group. A group has to consider it a conception. However, how big is the group? In theory four people could create a conception, argue that it is offensive, make it a stereotype, and then argue that everyone should skate around them because whatever it is is a stereotype and they don't like it, even though they invented it!

 

One person getting offended and getting four people to agree with them is NOT a stereotype. For it to be a stereotype, a group must build the convention about another group of people, and think it's true.

 

Now in this case, you can argue that the stereotype was made by the Great Beings of female Toa. But they made female Toa to be what they were, so they would know exactly who they are. That's "truth" according to my friend Makaru.

 

But the Great Beings didn't type human females as gentle, only female Toa. To suggest that they have typed us is ridiculous - they don't even know we exist. They didn't even type female Agori, but rather female Toa, which they made.

 

Now, back in the realm of "fact": Greg does not qualify as a group. He's one guy. Most of the arguments in this topic have accused him of typing human females using this example, but since the stereotype didn't exist before he wrote the scene, it's not a stereotype.

 

Also, stereotypes by definition don't have to be offensive to the typed party. It's just that they often are. Being offended =/= stereotyping.

 

And there's nothing wrong with wanting more female characters or evener ratios in a Bionicle return or even getting mad at how gender was handled previously, as unproductive as it is. But appealing to stereotypes to try to shove your emotions in other people's faces is not based in truth, fact, or whatever term you all wish to use for it. 

 

While I see what you're trying to say, fishers, I think you're missing the forest for the trees here.

 

It's true that if you look directly at what was shown in Bionicle, you don't explicitly get "human women are worse than human men"; you get "the Great Beings judged female Toa to be gentler than male Toa." 

 

But that reading's shallow, for lack of a better term.  It ignores other portrayals of females in Bionicle (often gentle healers, "tough-girl" attempts to subvert that, or in one or two cases "temptresses") that inform gender dynamics as a whole, and more importantly it ignores real-world context.  It's true there are no humans in Bionicle, but just as LEGO expects boys who enjoyed the line to identify with male Toa/Matoran/whatever, it's safe to say they also expected girls who enjoyed the line to identify with the female characters.

 

With that in mind, the representations of female characters suddenly do matter that much more, and they begin to echo real-world stereotypes.  The Great Beings might not explicitly be stereotyping real-world girls, but they are stereotyping their reference point in Bionicle.  And remember - the Great Beings aren't some immobile, observed truth (or fact, or whatever).  They were written by Greg and the story team.  Greg and co. had a choice in how they wrote the work, and they chose to write "the GBs thought females were gentler."  And that is a pretty common trope and stereotype in real life, as applied to real girls.

 

Maybe you can argue the intended reading was "the GBs thought females were gentler, and that was wrong", and Chiara's protests to the contrary about being 'gentle' might support that.  But when taken in context with the rest of how Bionicle depicted females - flat, tropey, and underrepresented - that's kind of difficult to believe.  In my opinion, it reads much more like Chiara's line was a quick attempt to write another "tough-girl" character that could be pointed to and said "see? Our women are strong!" without actually addressing the myriad other stereotypical female tropes that were on display again and again throughout Bionicle as a whole.

Edited July 18, 2014 by GSR

[Sumiki]

There were enough hints in the little bit of that serial we got to indicate that the issue of gender - at least in that one particular instance - would be subverted. Alas, the serial ended before we got the chance to see where it would go, leaving us with overtones of sexism.
 
I'm fully convinced that the question of Orde would be different if Greg had been able to continue the serial.

[believe victims]

There were enough hints in the little bit of that serial we got to indicate that the issue of gender - at least in that one particular instance - would be subverted. Alas, the serial ended before we got the chance to see where it would go, leaving us with overtones of sexism.

 

I'm fully convinced that the question of Orde would be different if Greg had been able to continue the serial.

 

The problem with that is that Greg, through his own admission, does not plan ahead; he made up the serials as he went, with no plans of where they were going.

[Fry]

 

Dude, it's not sexist. Saying women in general are gentler is a fact.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaand you're done. after that I don't think many people in this topic are going to back your claims.

They can also be excessive. Bionicle isn't sexist. If you want a tough character than obsess over Kina or whoever she was

Edited July 18, 2014 by Makaru
no

[Makaru]

 

 

Dude, it's not sexist. Saying women in general are gentler is a fact.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaand you're done. after that I don't think many people in this topic are going to back your claims.

They can also be excessive. Bionicle isn't sexist. If you want a tough character than obsess over Kina or whoever she was

If you want your opinion listened to in terms of what is sexist and what is not, don't use the word I just deleted out of your post.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Makaru

[Sumiki]

 

There were enough hints in the little bit of that serial we got to indicate that the issue of gender - at least in that one particular instance - would be subverted. Alas, the serial ended before we got the chance to see where it would go, leaving us with overtones of sexism.

 

I'm fully convinced that the question of Orde would be different if Greg had been able to continue the serial.

 

The problem with that is that Greg, through his own admission, does not plan ahead; he made up the serials as he went, with no plans of where they were going.

 

I never got the impression that Greg was a bad person, just a poor writer - espcially when it came to structure. Unless he's secretly a misogynist (and I have no reason to believe he is; the gender ratio was nothing more than a marketing decision), I really couldn't see him using his own little soapbox to perpetuate harmful stereotypes.

 

Unfortunately for this scenario, the serial ended before that could happen.Perhaps I'm wrong about his motives, but I like to assume the best about people.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Sumiki

[believe victims]

 

 

Dude, it's not sexist. Saying women in general are gentler is a fact.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaand you're done. after that I don't think many people in this topic are going to back your claims.

They can also be excessive. Bionicle isn't sexist. If you want a tough character than obsess over Kina or whoever she was

 

 

Kiina was a character that tried too hard to be ~not like other girls~ but in the end she ended up exactly like girls in similar positions do: in a cage, needing the Male Protagonist to save her.

 

 

 

 

There were enough hints in the little bit of that serial we got to indicate that the issue of gender - at least in that one particular instance - would be subverted. Alas, the serial ended before we got the chance to see where it would go, leaving us with overtones of sexism.

 

I'm fully convinced that the question of Orde would be different if Greg had been able to continue the serial.

 

The problem with that is that Greg, through his own admission, does not plan ahead; he made up the serials as he went, with no plans of where they were going.

 

I never got the impression that Greg was a bad person, just a poor writer - espcially when it came to structure. Unless he's secretly a misogynist (and I have no reason to believe he is; the gender ratio was nothing more than a marketing decision), I really couldn't see him using his own little soapbox to perpetuate harmful stereotypes.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong about his motives, but I like to assume the best about people.

 

 

I'm definitely not saying he's a bad person; I just don't think he had any plans to expand on the Orde thing, because he doesn't have any plans at all. When I read it, I never got the impression he was being willfully misogynistic. He was trying to be the opposite, but he fell flat on his face, probably because he doesn't plan ahead.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Octodad

[Noxryn]

 

 

There were enough hints in the little bit of that serial we got to indicate that the issue of gender - at least in that one particular instance - would be subverted. Alas, the serial ended before we got the chance to see where it would go, leaving us with overtones of sexism.

 

I'm fully convinced that the question of Orde would be different if Greg had been able to continue the serial.

 

The problem with that is that Greg, through his own admission, does not plan ahead; he made up the serials as he went, with no plans of where they were going.

 

I never got the impression that Greg was a bad person, just a poor writer - espcially when it came to structure. Unless he's secretly a misogynist (and I have no reason to believe he is; the gender ratio was nothing more than a marketing decision), I really couldn't see him using his own little soapbox to perpetuate harmful stereotypes.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong about his motives, but I like to assume the best about people.

 

 

tbh i would doubt he intended to do so, but that it was an unintended consequence of poor writing.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Kitania

[Maphrox: Toa of Polygons]

How to fix gender ratios in Bionicle:

-Reboot

-Have two more Toa referred to as "she" per team

-Remove element restrictions

-Otherwise leave personalities unchanged.

-Win at gender ratios and strong female characters.

[Lielac]

Now I know this probably won't happen, but..

If the new Bionicle was to be a continuation of the old series and start right back where we left off, I think something along the lines of an Agori-Matoran war could be kind of cool. According to the serials they didn't exactly trust each others after the reunion.

Yeah, but all we saw was the very beginnings of their acclimation to each other. It could go either way, but I think with level-headed people like Ackar and Gali and basically every Turaga around, the end result would be the two groups living in harmony. I mean, rocky times initially? Heck yeah. Considering MU natives see the Great Beings as even more sacred than Mata Nui, while Spherus Magnans hate the GBs' guts, insults and fists would fly. But I think there would be enough reasonable, open-minded people on both sides that it wouldn't get past the petty squabbles stage.

 

... Probably. I hope. What can I say? I don't like the idea of civil war. I much prefer grudging alliances to beat up on a common enemy, and then learning to like each other while fighting side-by-side.

 

I also don't think a Bionicle reboot/continuation/what-have-you would pick up from where we left off anyway, because "where Bionicle left off" was a convoluted mess of tangled plot threads that was ludicrously difficult to get into if you hadn't been following it from the start or near enough to. Reboot in an alternate universe, reboot in the far-flung future of Spherus Magna when everyone we know and love has gone on to the "legend" bit of Matoran-Toa-Turaga-Legend, whatever.

 

 

... As for gender ratios, what Maphrox said. If nothing else (but I would love more), remove elemental gender restrictions. Although that happened with Spherus Magnans and look where that got us. Hi Tarix, hi Berix, I like you both but you're blue so i was slightly confused when you weren't ladies. (Oh, who am I kidding, I got used to that around Takadox.)

Edited July 18, 2014 by Lielac

[boston100]

What even makes a female bionicle female? MU inhabitants have no reproducing organs. 

[Makaru]

 

 

There were enough hints in the little bit of that serial we got to indicate that the issue of gender - at least in that one particular instance - would be subverted. Alas, the serial ended before we got the chance to see where it would go, leaving us with overtones of sexism.

 

I'm fully convinced that the question of Orde would be different if Greg had been able to continue the serial.

 

The problem with that is that Greg, through his own admission, does not plan ahead; he made up the serials as he went, with no plans of where they were going.

 

I never got the impression that Greg was a bad person, just a poor writer - espcially when it came to structure. Unless he's secretly a misogynist (and I have no reason to believe he is; the gender ratio was nothing more than a marketing decision), I really couldn't see him using his own little soapbox to perpetuate harmful stereotypes.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong about his motives, but I like to assume the best about people.

 

I wouldn't even say he's a bad writer. Just.... ungraceful. The man has a lot of really good ideas. While he's the brainchild behind Tuyet, he also wrote Challenge of the Hordika's Krahka.

 

There needs to be a more diverse and unified story TEAM though. Maybe a team of SIX??????

[Noxryn]

What even makes a female bionicle female? MU inhabitants have no reproducing organs. 

 

the pronouns used to refer to them; ownership or absence of specific organs does not define who is what gender.

 

edit: and canonically males and females exist in the bionicle universe regardless, so i dont see much of a point here (though i wouldn't mind seeing characters that don't adhere to that binary honestly, but i sadly doubt it'd really happen :/)

Edited July 18, 2014 by Kitania

[GSR]

 

 

There were enough hints in the little bit of that serial we got to indicate that the issue of gender - at least in that one particular instance - would be subverted. Alas, the serial ended before we got the chance to see where it would go, leaving us with overtones of sexism.

 

I'm fully convinced that the question of Orde would be different if Greg had been able to continue the serial.

 

The problem with that is that Greg, through his own admission, does not plan ahead; he made up the serials as he went, with no plans of where they were going.

 

I never got the impression that Greg was a bad person, just a poor writer - espcially when it came to structure. Unless he's secretly a misogynist (and I have no reason to believe he is; the gender ratio was nothing more than a marketing decision), I really couldn't see him using his own little soapbox to perpetuate harmful stereotypes.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong about his motives, but I like to assume the best about people.

 

 

I'm definitely not saying he's a bad person; I just don't think he had any plans to expand on the Orde thing, because he doesn't have any plans at all. When I read it, I never got the impression he was being willfully misogynistic. He was trying to be the opposite, but he fell flat on his face, probably because he doesn't plan ahead.

 

 

Right - I should clarify, I don't mean to say LEGO or Greg were trying to be misogynistic, or sexist, or any of that - I'm just saying that I find it difficult to divorce the in-story treatment of females from a lot of existing tropes and stereotypes, and it certainly feels like the writers fell into those holes a lot.  (I'm not even saying that Greg's a bad writer - he had his flaws, but the hate he gets seems awfully vicious at times.)

 

I could be wrong on my reading here - it's been a while since I read the serial, so Sumiki could be right in that down the road it would've nicely subverted these issues.  And I'm hopeful that if Bionicle were to return, it would have better gender representation and less flat characters all-around.

Edited July 18, 2014 by GSR

[Lielac]

{Lielac snipped lots of stuff because she's really only replying to one sentence}

  And I'm hopeful that if Bionicle were to return, it would have better gender representation and less flat characters all-around.

 

Yes. In. DEED. More rounded characters! More ladies! More well-rounded lady characters!

[Azani]

While I agree that there is a distinction between Bionicle canon and what happens in the real world, using the words truth and fact to distinguish them is confusing, because in the real world they are often synonymous. Also your wording implies that truth does not exist in the real world, and while we are not allowed to get into that debate, I find the implication to be false.

 

 

 

In this case, however, the Bionicle story suggests that the group of women as a whole is expected to be more gentle than the group of men as a whole. Does a lack of familiarity with a stereotype make it less hurtful to the group that it's targeting? I'd argue that any explicit generalization of a group around a supposed tendency or trait is a stereotype, regardless of whether or not it is commonly considered to be one.

stereotype

[...]

3. a set form; convention.

4.

Sociology . a simplified and standardized conception or image invested with special meaning and heldin common by members of a group:

The cowboy and Indian are American stereotypes.

Operative focus on the term group. A group has to consider it a conception. However, how big is the group? In theory four people could create a conception, argue that it is offensive, make it a stereotype, and then argue that everyone should skate around them because whatever it is is a stereotype and they don't like it, even though they invented it!

 

One person getting offended and getting four people to agree with them is NOT a stereotype. For it to be a stereotype, a group must build the convention about another group of people, and think it's true.

 

Now in this case, you can argue that the stereotype was made by the Great Beings of female Toa. But they made female Toa to be what they were, so they would know exactly who they are. That's "truth" according to my friend Makaru.

 

But the Great Beings didn't type human females as gentle, only female Toa. To suggest that they have typed us is ridiculous - they don't even know we exist. They didn't even type female Agori, but rather female Toa, which they made.

 

Now, back in the realm of "fact": Greg does not qualify as a group. He's one guy. Most of the arguments in this topic have accused him of typing human females using this example, but since the stereotype didn't exist before he wrote the scene, it's not a stereotype.

 

Also, stereotypes by definition don't have to be offensive to the typed party. It's just that they often are. Being offended =/= stereotyping.

 

And there's nothing wrong with wanting more female characters or evener ratios in a Bionicle return or even getting mad at how gender was handled previously, as unproductive as it is. But appealing to stereotypes to try to shove your emotions in other people's faces is not based in truth, fact, or whatever term you all wish to use for it.

 

I've realized that I was looking at all of this from a bad angle, one that I had assumed that others would share. I had equated the stereotyping of female Toa with the stereotyping of female humans, incorrectly assuming that others would make that jump and consider it self-evident that offense should be taken. I'm not even female myself, and I suggested that I'd know what would offend one best. Sorry about that.

 

How to fix gender ratios in Bionicle:

-Reboot

-Have two more Toa referred to as "she" per team

-Remove element restrictions

-Otherwise leave personalities unchanged.

-Win at gender ratios and strong female characters.

Just to clarify, are you saying that you'd want there to be two more female Toa per team in addition to the average of one female member of each team already? That sounds like an awesome way of amending the gender ratios to me. I do want to add, though, that leaving the personalities of the new female characters as they would have been if all or most of them were male isn't what many of us might have had in mind. It's completely natural for their to be some differences in the personalities of male and female characters, and in fact doing otherwise is often considered to be a form of stereotyping in itself. A good amount of variety in personalities and traits seems the most intuitive and realistic way to create female characters in a franchise which is dominated by males.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Artakha's Nephew

[Maphrox: Toa of Polygons]

 

How to fix gender ratios in Bionicle:

-Reboot

-Have two more Toa referred to as "she" per team

-Remove element restrictions

-Otherwise leave personalities unchanged.

-Win at gender ratios and strong female characters.

Just to clarify, are you saying that you'd want there to be two more female Toa per team in addition to the average of one female member of each team already? That sounds like an awesome way of amending the gender ratios to me. I do want to add, though, that leaving the personalities of the new female characters as they would have been if all or most of them were male isn't what many of us might have had in mind. It's completely natural for their to be some differences in the personalities of male and female characters, and in fact doing otherwise is often considered to be a form of stereotyping in itself. A good amount of variety in personalities and traits seems the most intuitive and realistic way to create female characters in a franchise which is dominated by males.

 

Yup, add two, that makes it three. Doesn't have to be set in stone either, as long as it's 3 on average. So there could be one with two females, but then there'd have to be one with four females.

 

As for natural differences between males and females that's a huge can of worms but since it's already been opened I'd argue that the elemental stereotypes and typical roles in a six-person hero team should have more weight on the personalities of the characters than their pronoun and... whatever else it is that differentiates male and female Toa.

[shadow pridak money gang]

i have heard this is a thread for the return of the lego original franchise "bionicles" and i would like to voice my support for ~trans girl tamaru defender of the jungle~

 

play well bzpower dot com family

 

-Tyler

[Lielac]

 

 

How to fix gender ratios in Bionicle:

-Reboot

-Have two more Toa referred to as "she" per team

-Remove element restrictions

-Otherwise leave personalities unchanged.

-Win at gender ratios and strong female characters.

Just to clarify, are you saying that you'd want there to be two more female Toa per team in addition to the average of one female member of each team already? That sounds like an awesome way of amending the gender ratios to me. I do want to add, though, that leaving the personalities of the new female characters as they would have been if all or most of them were male isn't what many of us might have had in mind. It's completely natural for their to be some differences in the personalities of male and female characters, and in fact doing otherwise is often considered to be a form of stereotyping in itself. A good amount of variety in personalities and traits seems the most intuitive and realistic way to create female characters in a franchise which is dominated by males.

 

Yup, add two, that makes it three. Doesn't have to be set in stone either, as long as it's 3 on average. So there could be one with two females, but then there'd have to be one with four females.

 

As for natural differences between males and females that's a huge can of worms but since it's already been opened I'd argue that the elemental stereotypes and typical roles in a six-person hero team should have more weight on the personalities of the characters than their pronoun and... whatever else it is that differentiates male and female Toa.

 

Basically just pronouns, yeah. Even with humans there are more variations within the genders than there are between them, so. Lady Tahu? Identical. The only differences people would probably see would be their own ideas of how women "should" act coloring how they'd read her.

 

i have heard this is a thread for the return of the lego original franchise "bionicles" and i would like to voice my support for ~trans girl tamaru defender of the jungle~

 

play well bzpower dot com family

 

-Tyler

 

YES. YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS yes yes yes yes yes lady Tamaru please yes yes yes yes yes yes yes ahem yeah. Scoot scoot, elemental gender restrictions, you limit the awesome people can do while staying within canon's rules, please don't be around if/when Bionicle comes back!

[Burnmad]

What even makes a female bionicle female? MU inhabitants have no reproducing organs. 

 

the pronouns used to refer to them; ownership or absence of specific organs does not define who is what gender.

 

So, their gender is defined by which pronoun is used to refer to them, and which pronoun is used to refer to them is, presumably, determined by which gender they are.

 

 

-

[Noxryn]

 

What even makes a female bionicle female? MU inhabitants have no reproducing organs. 

 

the pronouns used to refer to them; ownership or absence of specific organs does not define who is what gender.

 

So, their gender is defined by which pronoun is used to refer to them, and which pronoun is used to refer to them is, presumably, determined by which gender they are.

 

 

-

 

 

gender is what the character expresses themself as (in extension human beings, though i am keeping this Bionicle related) -- what pronouns they prefer to use, how they prefer others to see them. (Bionicle characters don't have reproductive organs either way so i seriously fail to see what point you're trying to make, if one at all)

 

but yeah, that bit of condescension there's doing wonders. 

Edited July 18, 2014 by Kitania

[Lielac]

 

What even makes a female bionicle female? MU inhabitants have no reproducing organs. 

 

the pronouns used to refer to them; ownership or absence of specific organs does not define who is what gender.

 

So, their gender is defined by which pronoun is used to refer to them, and which pronoun is used to refer to them is, presumably, determined by which gender they are.

 

 

-

 

I, uh, don't see the problem? If someone asks to be referred to with she/her pronouns, they (usually) identify as female. If someone asks to be refer to with he/him pronouns, they're usually male. They/them pronouns, neither (or both).

[Azani]

As for natural differences between males and females that's a huge can of worms but since it's already been opened I'd argue that the elemental stereotypes and typical roles in a six-person hero team should have more weight on the personalities of the characters than their pronoun and... whatever else it is that differentiates male and female Toa.

You're right, and I'm glad that it was pointed out; it is a huge discussion that leaves plenty of room open for disagreement. I didn't want to give anyone the idea that I believed that all females were different from all males in certain ways; rather, I believe that the most natural way of writing any group of characters is to have them all be different from one another to some degree, with no thought to the genders of any of the characters unless the story or a part of the story concerns it. That's what a complete absence of stereotyping would look like to me.

[shadow pridak money gang]

i see it's groundhog day on bzp again

 

if ignorance rears its head and see that more than two people have liked its inane, uneducated, and often hurtful posts that totally fail to grasp the identity of other human beings we get six more years of bonkles !!!

 

if not then we get a single mata nui hero factory XXL build and N O    M O R E   B O N K L E S

 

-Tyler

[Lielac]

 

As for natural differences between males and females that's a huge can of worms but since it's already been opened I'd argue that the elemental stereotypes and typical roles in a six-person hero team should have more weight on the personalities of the characters than their pronoun and... whatever else it is that differentiates male and female Toa.

You're right, and I'm glad that it was pointed out; it is a huge discussion that leaves plenty of room open for disagreement. I didn't want to give anyone the idea that I believed that all females were different from all males in certain ways; rather, I believe that the most natural way of writing any group of characters is to have them all be different from one another to some degree, with no thought to the genders of any of the characters unless the story or a part of the story concerns it. That's what a complete absence of stereotyping would look like to me.

 

Well, yeah. Write the character first, and in a universe like this where gender is essentially flavor text, add that bit at the end because it's not really important. In a universe where being a certain gender does color people's personality due to societal pressures, then it would be relevant to decide on a gender before the end of character creation, but Bionicle isn't really that kind of universe to me. At least, not intentionally, and not for Matoran. (For Vortixx, though...)