Toa Mangai of Ice Kanohi Poll

[Ektris]

It's not even been a week. That is absolutely too early.

 

It baffles me that the Mask of Conjuring, one of the most convoluted masks to get made up all those years ago, is holding any sort of position. Numbers with your positions would be beneficial for those of us who have not voted (yet).

 

I won't, however, be voting for a Rode, if I do. I would much prefer it to remain the unique and rarer mask it is implied to be by being in the possession of an important member of the Order of Mata Nui.

 

~|ET|~

[Boidoh]

I'll have it be a week then.

[Archon~]

No you won't. YOU won't have it anything. However the COMMUNITY will agree when the poll should be locked down. I personaly say 3 weeks or a month.

 

Remember, just because you started this movement of canonization along with this topic, it doesn't give you the right to run rampant through it and be the voice of people who actually might agree and are ok with things that you, and I and many others, are lobbying for.

[Boidoh]

You do what you want with these polls here-on-out. I'm finished with them.

 

At this point, I look back and say, "Hey, why did I even do this." At this point I don't care which Kanohi wins, I don't care what weapon the Mangai of the Green gets, and I don't even care if canonization gets banned. I just thought, "Hey, let's have some fun", but at this point, my main purpose I made these for has turned into a mass riot, and I'm washing my hands clean off of these.

 

Retracted...

Edited December 11, 2014 by Boidoh

[ALVIS]

No you won't. YOU won't have it anything. However the COMMUNITY will agree when the poll should be locked down. I personaly say 3 weeks or a month.

 

Remember, just because you started this movement of canonization along with this topic, it doesn't give you the right to run rampant through it and be the voice of people who actually might agree and are ok with things that you, and I and many others, are lobbying for.

 

 

Yikes, that was a little harsh.

[fishers64]

I'm of the opinion that some sort of balance has got to happen, but still. Poll mismanagement is not an excuse to beat up on Boidoh. He's a follow member like everyone else. 

 

And running a poll for three weeks is ridiculous. Not even BZPower contest polls run for that long. A week is enough. 

[Voltex]

This isn't a poll to determine the winner of a fan contest, though - it's a poll to make a decision regarding making something canon, which is a bit of a bigger deal, I think. Perhaps not "three weeks long poll" big deal, but maybe "two weeks long poll".

 

Anyway, I voted no on all three accounts. I don't want anything else made canon.

[bonesiii]

Right, I should have said "would likely care enough", not necessarily exactly. The makeup of the poll would obviously different, but just one restart is likely to get us close enough to the original without distorting the vote percentage, but enough to make sure the proper changes are made. I wouldn't ask for any more than that.

Thing is, close enough is arbitrary. Let's think about what would actually happen. If the results stayed the same, the only way to know it's close enough* is that the results stayed the same. If the results change, this could be evidence of two possibilities -- that people did change their minds... or that the second poll lost some people who voted in the first so it wasn't close enough. This could actually leave us with just as much a mess as the original.

 

*Unless everybody in the original poll posted their results, barring the unlikely scenario of dishonesty. But if we're counting that way there's no need for another poll as everybody's Rahi Control vote could be counted.

 

It baffles me that the Mask of Conjuring, one of the most convoluted masks

Well, my response to this may (perhaps somewhat fairly) be disregarded as due to bias (except obviously some others do like it), but I disagree with "convoluted" or the suggestion that the power shouldn't exist in Bionicle. (If it was that, I obviously wouldn't have suggested it.)

 

First, it's based on some important behind-the-scenes reveals like that the Matoran language is a coding language and that the artificial version of protodermis that the Great Beings made is what generates powers. It makes sense that in addition to random mixing of powers, intentional coding is possible especially since the Great Beings did create some powers themselves. In fact, most likely the intentional programming of a power is the original way and they designed the power mixing system to sort of "hide" the inner workings of the Matoran's reality from them so they couldn't mess it up too easily if things went wrong with them.

 

I would say it's fair to call the evidence that went into this reasoning little-known. Some might use "mocking tone fallacy" to describe it as "obscure." But this reasoning also need not be known at all to accept that the power exists. Tons of super-power stories have powers like this. There's a whole group of these "adaptable" powers, such as absorbing powers you see (Peter Petrelli for example), and wizarding stories especially will have the ability to speak a spell and a specific effect will happen based on the wording (the chosen name for the power alludes to this). The Matrix featured basically this except in a (deadly) virtual world, and simpler versions of various options of forcefields and the like responding to instructions are common in things like Star Trek.

 

Undoubtedly some might find it too sci-fi-ey. Others just might find it too fantasy-ey, though, lol, due to the name and it doing the same basic thing as a magician's spellbook, like the one in Narnia: Dawn Treader. So I wouldn't take that too seriously as it's actually (I'd say, myself anywho) a good instance of science fantasy being present in a single thing in that sense.

 

And some might claim it's overpowered but would be missing the downsides including the one Greg added about the mental backlash. Actually that's part of what makes it so interesting to me; it seems likely those who have the mask would probably rarely use it (so there's a lot of potential for stories where they rely on other means to win battles), and if they do, they might actually carry around a guidebook (or a tablet short list) of spells that are well known to be phrased properly.

 

Also implies that they would have to be something like a warrior-scholar, like how Brutaka was described, very adept at linguistics and grammar. So it says a lot about the personality of somebody who would choose that power, probably more than for most powers!

[maxim21]

Does anyone think we should close this now (And NO, I'm not just saying this because I like to rush or whatever so don't even type that in the reply box)? It seems that this poll has gone on longer than the Toa Mangai of the Green's Kanohi Poll.

Without even considering time, I think this poll should be closed after the one for the Kakama, since it can change the results.

 

Otherwise, two weeks would seem reasonable to me.

[Boidoh]

 

Does anyone think we should close this now (And NO, I'm not just saying this because I like to rush or whatever so don't even type that in the reply box)? It seems that this poll has gone on longer than the Toa Mangai of the Green's Kanohi Poll.

Without even considering time, I think this poll should be closed after the one for the Kakama, since it can change the results.

 

Otherwise, two weeks would seem reasonable to me.

 

 

Or.... We give Greg the top 3, then when the Kakama poll is done we give the final Toa of Ice's mask, and the wearer of the Kakama. (It's gonna be Earth and you know it.)

 

 

I've reconsidered and I'll continue the polls.The next and final one's will be the Toa of Stone and Naho's Kanohi.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Boidoh

[Dorek]

(It's gonna be Earth and you know it.)

That's not a particularly constructive attitude to be coming back with =/. Just let the polls take their course... a week or two seems reasonable to me (I'd say two, personally).

[Boidoh]

It just has a lot more votes than every other option. It's like how it was obvious that the Mask of Healing was going to win...

[Iblis]

It just has a lot more votes than every other option.

 

I'm not sure that less than a hundred is really much given how big the Fandom is, but I don't see how your perspective on the Toa of Earth winning is destructive either ^{(well, that isn't what Dorek said either)}

*shrugs*

[Dorek]

I'm just saying the deterministic sort of attitude is exactly what people are rebelling against. Imposing a strict and exclusionary vision on the canon doesn't sit well with a lot of people.

 

Maybe Earth will win, maybe there will be a surge of alternative votes, maybe "no" will win out (since it's a lot closer, and only has one mistaken vote so far =P), who knows? Letting people have their say is the most important part.

[Boidoh]

So I'm not allowed to have an opinion as a member of the community?

[Iblis]

So I'm not allowed to have an opinion as a member of the community?

 

Wait.

What.

 

 (It's gonna be Earth and you know it.)

That's not a particularly constructive attitude to be coming back with =/. Just let the polls take their course... a week or two seems reasonable to me (I'd say two, personally).

 

He's not saying you can't have any opinion, or that you can't think that X will win, but

 

I'm just saying the deterministic sort of attitude is exactly what people are rebelling against. Imposing a strict and exclusionary vision on the canon doesn't sit well with a lot of people.

 

So maybe he's saying that you can't share your opinion that a certain thing will be X and you know it.

But. I'll let him speak for himself (as well)

But he didn't say you couldn't have an opinion exactly...

Edited December 11, 2014 by Iblis

[Dorek]

So I'm not allowed to have an opinion as a member of the community?

You're absolutely allowed an opinion. An opinion would be "I hope it's a Toa of Earth who wears the Kakama". A statistical prediction would be "based on the votes, Earth looks like it might win". "It's gonna be Earth and you know it." isn't really an opinion, it's an in-your-face attitude.

 

(regardless, this all belongs in the other topic anyway. I still haven't even voted in this one...)

[Katuko]

It's not even been a week. That is absolutely too early.

I agree. This is not a fan-contest. This is canon. It even irks me if a canonization option wins with a mere 14 votes for it total. Like, does half the site even know about this poll? It's a community vote about canonization an aspect of the old story. Put it on the site's front page in bold letters, for crying out loud. And keep it open long enough that people have a chance to notice it!

 

It baffles me that the Mask of Conjuring, one of the most convoluted masks to get made up all those years ago, is holding any sort of position. Numbers with your positions would be beneficial for those of us who have not voted (yet).

I agree. In my personal opinion it's pretty much a "I want this power, mommy" mask except with obvious rule patches on top of it, and it runs counter to pretty much every other mask, which have a single, pre-defined power each. Not that we can't have a Conjuring mask, but it appears to be bogged down by rules and restrictions just so that it can be available to everyone. I prefer Creation because it's a big-name mask with a big "do anything" power, but it doesn't try to hide that fact.

 

Yikes, that was a little harsh.

If it keeps us from canonizing stuff with 10 votes after a few days worth of non-voting, I say go ahead. Not hating on anyone in particular here, but I agree that a lot seems to be rushed.

 

 

It baffles me that the Mask of Conjuring, one of the most convoluted masks

Well, my response to this may (perhaps somewhat fairly) be disregarded as due to bias (except obviously some others do like it), but I disagree with "convoluted" or the suggestion that the power shouldn't exist in Bionicle. (If it was that, I obviously wouldn't have suggested it.)

 

I'd call that last sentence a fallacy if I ever saw one. I think you know why.

 

First, it's based on some important behind-the-scenes reveals like that the Matoran language is a coding language and that the artificial version of protodermis that the Great Beings made is what generates powers. It makes sense that in addition to random mixing of powers, intentional coding is possible especially since the Great Beings did create some powers themselves. In fact, most likely the intentional programming of a power is the original way and they designed the power mixing system to sort of "hide" the inner workings of the Matoran's reality from them so they couldn't mess it up too easily if things went wrong with them.

I agree with this, but I still see it as too complicated a power to use for a mask. If it was a power/machine/interface used to create and then load powers into a final mask, I might find it more fitting, but as it is it's mostly just a wish-fulfilling power in my book.

 

I would say it's fair to call the evidence that went into this reasoning little-known. Some might use "mocking tone fallacy" to describe it as "obscure." But this reasoning also need not be known at all to accept that the power exists. Tons of super-power stories have powers like this. There's a whole group of these "adaptable" powers, such as absorbing powers you see (Peter Petrelli for example), and wizarding stories especially will have the ability to speak a spell and a specific effect will happen based on the wording (the chosen name for the power alludes to this). The Matrix featured basically this except in a (deadly) virtual world, and simpler versions of various options of forcefields and the like responding to instructions are common in things like Star Trek.

I agree with this as well, but we already have that mask - the Mask of Emulation, which is designed to copy a power it sees being used. As for magic spells, the mask themselves are the incantation - they have been produced with a "program" in them. While it makes some sense that there would exist system development packages for Matoran Kanohi, I don't see the worth in having a mask for it. We already have Mask makers, the Mask of Emulation, the Mask of Creation, and so forth.

 

Giving any schmuck the ability to speak the word and create a new power for themselves - especially when you have to add limitations such as them have to follow strict rules etc. for no reason except to keep the mask power from being overpowered in the grander scheme of the story ... I think that just fails to speak well for the mask that it is so intricate. Having to take your time with making a power is OK, but at the same time it's a magic genie that is worn on your face. That is my main issue with it, I think. Its power is such that it should probably just be a fantastical Super-tier mask once used by the GBs to test-run their universe, but in the process of making it available to the common folk it's "dumbed down" with long cast times and vague "it has to have a weakness" restrictions.

 

 

 

So yeah, I voted for more simple masks that I imagine could be useful for fighting a dragon, like Strength and Flight. I tossed in Healing as well.

 

 

EDIT: I had trouble posting this due to momentary Internet failure. If it suddenly shows up multiple times for some reason I apologize.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Katuko

[bonesiii]

I agree. In my personal opinion it's pretty much a "I want this power, mommy" mask except with obvious rule patches on top of it, and it runs counter to pretty much every other mask

By that reasoning, Peter Petrelli runs counter to pretty much every other power. But variety allows for some things which themselves have more potential for variety. Also, only one of the rules, the one Greg mentioned, could really be seen as a patch. (And by that logic, the Hau is pretty much a "I don't want to be in danger, mommy" mask except with the patch on top of it. All powers need to have both upsides and downsides, which incidentally the Conjuring definition mentioned. )

 

If you don't like this category of powers, that's fine, but I don't think it's fair (hey maybe biased though) to make it sound like it's somehow inconsistent. IMO it's a likely choice of one of the earliest powers the Great Beings would make, since they had a permanent version of it that they would use when creating beings like Umbra to have powers they assign him. Why not just say it's not to your personal likes?

 

It's also similar to the original idea of masks as being swappable. If this is bad, then a Suva must be bad by the same basic logic. While I think Suva make sense to be rare, they could and did exist. It's just that instead of collecting physical masks with the risks associated with its storage, you collect spells with the constant risks of misspeaking, being overheard and anticipated, being slower than a mask that already has its power defined, etc.

 

 

I'd call that last sentence a fallacy if I ever saw one. I think you know why.

This is a common misconception. I wasn't using it in the fallacious sense as proof, but the sense of a rule I follow, so it's less likely that it wouldn't make sense (versus somebody just making up random powers with no evidence). Matters in this case because all of those powers were based on canon evidence, including (especially) Conjuring.

 

as it is it's mostly just a wish-fulfilling power in my book.

Yes it is, just like the Genie in Aladdin fulfills wishes. This again looks like taste talking; it may feel self-evident to you due to a taste against this type of power (with its downsides), but stories can and do feature wishes. It's also like any number of stories where wizards cast spells, and even more limited than usual! If Harry Potter says a spell wrong it will not likely make him go insane. (Admittedly I wish I'd thought of that one myself. But that's a great example of why Greg is such a good choice for his position; he has that kind of imagination!) Though in some cases doing that kind of spell wrong could have otherwise disastrous results.

 

I agree with this as well, but we already have that mask - the Mask of Emulation, which is designed to copy a power it sees being used.

Yes, that's the literal Peter Petrelli mask. But Bionicle can have functionally infinite possible powers; it makes sense there would be multiple powers in this basic category.

 

As for magic spells, the mask themselves are the incantation - they have been produced with a "program" in them. While it makes some sense that there would exist system development packages for Matoran Kanohi, I don't see the worth in having a mask for it.

See, this is a great example of the mistake of failing to think in-story. Not all Toa would agree with this. If one had a personality like the one I described where they felt it was worth the risk, the obvious benefits would be something they would desire (as with any power with its pros and cons). It seems to me you do see the worth to them -- wish fulfilment. It's just that for out-story reasons (a personal dislike of this variety of wish fulfilment) you don't see the worth to the story from your perspective as a fan (of your tastes). But that doesn't really work as the story is aimed at multiple tastes.

[Spell_ICUP]

You guys pick really odd masks.  The Kadin for a Ice Toa?  What? 

[JMSOG]

You guys pick really odd masks.  The Kadin for a Ice Toa?  What? 

...to be fair...Kadin for an earth toa was pretty odd.

[Katuko]

All powers need to have both upsides and downsides, which incidentally the Conjuring definition mentioned.

The difference is that one is a finished power - even the one that copies other powers - that works a certain way. The other is a power which has its effects made up on the spot whenever it is convenient.

 

If you have the Hau, you always have the shield. If you add the Kakama to the Suva, then you have speed. But if you have Conjuring, then you could potentially be walking around with every power imaginable at once, and because that is such an obvious game breaker you add some heavy downsides to it -- but those same downsides means that the masks' usage is suddenly convoluted. Convoluted in that you have to make a full description of the new power any time it is used, mind, not that it is hard to understand. Compare to Emulation, which also takes time to scan and copy, but which does not require any lengthy design speech. Heck ,the description for Conjuring even says that you must mention weaknesses, which heavily implies that you can't just leave obvious ones unspoken. It's like... it's like the more recent TF2 weapons: a lot of stats and gimmicks applied to a weapon to make it interesting, but a good concept does not necessarily make it good in execution.

 

If you don't like this category of powers, that's fine, but I don't think it's fair (hey maybe biased though) to make it sound like it's somehow inconsistent. IMO it's a likely choice of one of the earliest powers the Great Beings would make, since they had a permanent version of it that they would use when creating beings like Umbra to have powers they assign him. Why not just say it's not to your personal likes?

I did not say I did not like the category of the power. I said I do not like this particular way of having it in the story. I even gave examples - I'd like it as a Legendary mask for the GBs with less restrictions, I like its version in the Mask of Emulation, and I like it as a potential machine that produces masks according to instructions. But I do not like a portable power-making factory strapped to someone's face, because the obvious balancing factors added to it makes it "meh" -- and that is personal opinion, yes.

 

It's also similar to the original idea of masks as being swappable. If this is bad, then a Suva must be bad by the same basic logic. While I think Suva make sense to be rare, they could and did exist. It's just that instead of collecting physical masks with the risks associated with its storage, you collect spells with the constant risks of misspeaking, being overheard and anticipated, being slower than a mask that already has its power defined, etc.

A Suva is bad in that you can deliberately load it with plot-solving powers, but a Suva is still a pre-defined limit. It sotres X number of masks, and you can use one at a time. A great power boost to those that have it, and it does not try to hide that fact. The Suva is designed to boost your abilities with 5 extra powers. Once you have chosen your powers, you generally stick with them, at least, so that the writers end up solving problems in new scenarios through clever use of established powers, rather than inventing new ones on the spot. The Faxon was already borderline for this. Heck, the Faxon is another one that could replace Conjuring, because it already has an ill-defined power pool, but is not bogged down by extra flair that adds nothing except strict numbers.

 

And yes, I know the speed is an issue with Conjuring, but as I said, it appears to either be a do-anything mask, or a do-nothing mask. I'd prefer to have just the "do anything" part, but pump it up a tier on the scale of Kanohi. As it is, it is just slow magic that is both too undefined and way too defined at the same time. It's like it tries to be a mysterious magic mask, but at the same time it's bogged down by too much description about its technical aspects. 15 min duration, must state weaknesses out loud, etc. It feels forced. If a Toa can command the thing to activate with their brain, they should be able to formulate the power in their brain as well.

 

I believe it would have been much simpler to say that it allows the user to imagine a power, but it takes time and concentration to manifest it. Leave all the technical details of the exact power structure and weaknesses less blatant. It makes sense that if you imagine "I want a giant laser", that it will have either a charge-up time, or a cooldown between uses, or it tires you out, or something. You can do these considerations in your mind. It then also makes more sense that messing up will mess with your brain rather than just the mask.

 

Having a character stand upright and clearly state:

 

"I want a [GIANT LASER], that is, a [bEAM] of [PHOTONS AND/OR ELECTRONS], which will fire at [A TARGET] within [LINE OF SIGHT] and [CAUSE GREAT HARM] to my it ii. As a downside to this [iNCREDIBLY STRONG ATTACK], it must spend [A GIVEN AMOUNT OF TIME] on [CHARGING ENERGY], so that it will [NOT DRAIN MY OWN ENERGY] (or [DRIVE ME INSANE] with [bACKLASH], please)."

 

...is rather stupid. No offense to the mask's creator, I hope. I get the distinct feeling that is you, though.

 

Yes it is, just like the Genie in Aladdin fulfills wishes. This again looks like taste talking; it may feel self-evident to you due to a taste against this type of power (with its downsides), but stories can and do feature wishes. It's also like any number of stories where wizards cast spells, and even more limited than usual!

I do not have a direct problem with wish-fulfilling powers in particular, but I do have a problem with this particular version of a wish-fulfilling power. It's both too open and too closed at the same time. The main power makes it appear overpowered if not restrained, but the restraints makes it appear too forced, as if someone desperately wanted to cram the power into BIONICLE but were not sure how.

 

See, this is a great example of the mistake of failing to think in-story. Not all Toa would agree with this. If one had a personality like the one I described where they felt it was worth the risk, the obvious benefits would be something they would desire (as with any power with its pros and cons). It seems to me you do see the worth to them -- wish fulfilment. It's just that for out-story reasons (a personal dislike of this variety of wish fulfilment) you don't see the worth to the story from your perspective as a fan (of your tastes). But that doesn't really work as the story is aimed at multiple tastes.

No. I can imagine several scenarios in my head where Conjuring can be used to good effect in a story, but I then see them as muttering a spell-like incantation to themselves, and without stating the obvious, if you will. I just don't think its "speak aloud and with clear pros/cons" description works all that well with BIONICLE. The concept is alright, but the execution is - to say it again - thoroughly "meh" to me.

 

It boils down to preferences, yes, but as you say yourself I could say the same for your preferences as to what fits and doesn't fit the series. You already have an immense amount of effort put into the Expanded Multiverse, and we've discussed aspects of that in the past, but it boils down to that half of the EU stuff is rather at odds with BIONICLE as a whole, depending on who you ask. Don't try to push too much of it into main canon without refining it.

 

 

EDIT: I might be bogging down the actual vote discussion. If you wish to take this to PM instead, tell me so.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Katuko

[Boidoh]

Kaukau, Pakari, Rode and Conjuring are all tied with 11... 

 

Someone do more campaigning for Conjuring...

[Katuko]

Someone do more campaigning for Conjuring...

Please, if we are to have a community vote, at least don't use your own topic to ask people to vote for your personal preferences.

 

I'll try to spread the link to this topic around, though, so that we can at least have more votes total. I'll say it again: Canonizing something with 11 votes and calling it a community effort is really stretching the term. As it is, the poll might actually be better off hosted by Greg on the official LEGO boards.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Katuko

[Ektris]

Kaukau, Pakari, Rode and Conjuring are all tied with 11... 

 

Someone do more campaigning for Conjuring...

Or we could not treat it as a contest.

 

If you've actually gone out and requested people to vote for your choice (which is the implication of doing "more" campaigning), that should completely invalidate any outcome here because of ballot stuffing. I like to think that you haven't, but all the same... let the outcome be what it is.

 

~|ET|~

Edited December 11, 2014 by Ektris

[Boidoh]

It seems as if every word I say here is used against me... Can't anyone here take a joke?

[Katuko]

If I can't be serious about a toyline that ended years ago - and for which I am way past its target group - then my life no longer has meaning. I am a cold hard shell of a man, who is only filled with warmth when fictional lasers get fired at the heads of equally fictional cyborgs.

 

If I appear to be cold towards you, that is merely a result of being jaded from years of watching BIONICLE kind of slowly spiral downwards towards its eventual doom, followed by years of people trying to twist answers out of Greg and getting their personal fan theories and ideas canonized.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Katuko

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

I was summoned by the sound of someone who possibly hates the properties of the mask of conjuring as much as me.

[Iblis]

I was summoned by the sound of someone who possibly hates the properties of the mask of conjuring as much as me.

 

As was I, although apparently I've hit my vote quote for the day, anyhow, I'm really surprised by some of the choices on this poll;

Mainly the Kaukau being so popular here o.O

[fishers64]

If I can't be serious about a toyline that ended years ago - and for which I am way past its target group - then my life no longer has meaning. I am a cold hard shell of a man, who is only filled with warmth when fictional lasers get fired at the heads of equally fictional cyborgs.

Lol. 

 

Although I may point out that the Mask of Conjuring is canon regardless of the result of yonder poll. I now feel like using it in a fanfic just to stick my tongue out at all of yon haters. After all, if a Toa of Psionics or Toa of Sonics used it, they could distort how the sound of their voice is or how it is perceived, turning something useless into something plausibly useful. It's also rather useful in a loud chaotic battle. 

[Katuko]

I was summoned by the sound of someone who possibly hates the properties of the mask of conjuring as much as me.

Ah, well, I don't hate it completely. I just dislike its design as-is. I'm more concerned about this voting at large because it has so very few voters in total. I've given the link to Reddit and a couple of friends of mine, but I can't help but think that only a miniscule fraction of the community - even the BZP community - knows about this poll's existence.

 

 

If I can't be serious about a toyline that ended years ago - and for which I am way past its target group - then my life no longer has meaning. I am a cold hard shell of a man, who is only filled with warmth when fictional lasers get fired at the heads of equally fictional cyborgs.

Lol. 

 

Although I may point out that the Mask of Conjuring is canon regardless of the result of yonder poll. I now feel like using it in a fanfic just to stick my tongue out at all of yon haters.

 

I mentioned it to bonesiii above: I can think of several uses for it, I just don't like the way it is designed/described. I could very well end up including it in a fanfic, but I'd be axing the precise description of time limits, and I'd definitely ignore the speak-out-loud clause in favor of being rendered immobilized and effectively blind to your surroundings while concentrating deeply on the power to be. I'd also just let the mask handle the limits of the power intrinsically, instead of having you stand there and state them out loud.

 

I mean, as a programmer myself I'd probably be delighted to have it on my Suva, but I do not think it makes for a good story the way it is right now.

 

"I need the power to look through solid objects, with the downside of--"

 

No. Why. Spoken Matoran = mental Matoran. Just let the wearer focus deeply in silence instead, and have a lapse in concentration spell out mental backlash and a failed power instead. Fulfills the same limits in practice, but is less silly when written.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Katuko

[bonesiii]

"The difference is that one is a finished power - even the one that copies other powers - that works a certain way. The other is a power which has its effects made up on the spot whenever it is convenient."

Both the power to copy other powers and to cast spells to write other powers are themselves powers.

"If you have the Hau, you always have the shield."

Nobody's arguing differently -- this is missing the point of the argument. The point is that "this has X gain and the downsides that make it not OP are patched-on" logic fails when tested with examples you do accept, so shouldn't be used against ones you don't personally enjoy.

I must say, though, it seems unlikely any of those opposing it would really dislike a story featuring it (if written well etc.). It opens up interesting risks and possibilities other powers don't. If you really know somehow beforehand that you wouldn't like any such story, okay, but it's not very believable to me that you wouldn't, on some level. I used to think that way about the copying others' power but Peter Petrelli nuked that assumption for me.

I can't help but suspect this is coming more out of an anti-canonization preference and had the same power been made by LEGO directly these arguments would be much more unlikely.

"I even gave examples - I'd like it as a Legendary mask for the GBs with less restrictions"

Maybe... although Legendary Powers usually do have severe restrictions, right? All three canon ones do. I think a Legendary version would likely just have the spells cast have more oomph than a Great (or Noble) version.

Anyways, thanks for agreeing it's a matter of taste, though. Not much objection then, but I'll comment a tad further for clarity's sake. (Remember my reason for responding was to the suggestion that because one person had a taste to not like it, they felt that others shouldn't either, which is not fair.)

"it appears to either be a do-anything mask, or a do-nothing mask"

Anything you know how to code right. Given the risk, in practice that means, except in extreme circumstances (where it just might be necessary), likely memorizing a few proven spells (maybe more if you have a book or the like). But yes, in a lot of situations it would (either way) be a last-resort power, which personally I like as I like stories where powers aren't an option, sometimes, yanno?

"I'd prefer to have just the "do anything" part, but pump it up a tier on the scale of Kanohi."

A fair taste to have. Just remember that the mask image was meant to be on a Matoran's face, and Matoran don't as far as we know normally make Matoran masks in the shape of Legendary Kanohi.

"is both too undefined and way too defined at the same time."

That doesn't really work, yanno. Where it really should be defined, it is.

"15 min duration, must state weaknesses out loud, etc. It feels forced. If a Toa can command the thing to activate with their brain, they should be able to formulate the power in their brain as well."

The duration is based on similar statements for other canon masks, and the fact that even with ones where it wasn't stated, it's understood that most do have a duration, and then a time to recharge. It also makes more sense for this one because it emphasizes its not being overpowered, that it's a small amount of time.

Telepathic command could be possible, but the power was inspired by Matoran being a programming language, and it's normally spoken. Thought-based control also seems less confined to exact syntax and the like, so I think that would make its risk of that downside larger.

Plus, this way there's a clear method of thinking through what you're going to say first to make sure it's right and then speaking it, so you can't accidentally "think too hard" and go insane.

"I believe it would have been much simpler to say that it allows the user to imagine a power, but it takes time and concentration to manifest it."

I wouldn't mind that, but if a carefully limited definition is going to get dislikes, I'd think one that sounds more open to the risk of being OP could get them all the more.

"Leave all the technical details of the exact power structure and weaknesses less blatant."

Normally I would agree, but the whole idea of the theme for that mask was to place emphasis on precision, based on this being necessary in programming languages.

"Having a character stand upright and clearly state:

"I want a [GIANT LASER], that is, a [bEAM] of [PHOTONS AND/OR ELECTRONS], which will fire at [A TARGET] within [LINE OF SIGHT] and [CAUSE GREAT HARM] to my it ii. As a downside to this [iNCREDIBLY STRONG ATTACK], it must spend [A GIVEN AMOUNT OF TIME] on [CHARGING ENERGY], so that it will [NOT DRAIN MY OWN ENERGY] (or [DRIVE ME INSANE] with [bACKLASH], please)."

...is rather stupid."

Here again you're going beyond just taste, though. Again, it may feel self-evident to you that this is 'stupid' but really that just means you don't like it. It need not be seen that way at all. You don't really present any reason to think that; the only apparent reason is your preferences.

(By the way, posture has nothing to do with it. )

And yes, that one was my idea. That's why I was talking about the obvious perception that I might be biased, at the start.

"I do not have a direct problem with wish-fulfilling powers in particular, but I do have a problem with this particular version of a wish-fulfilling power. It's both too open and too closed at the same time."

It really would be better to call it a spell-casting power (hence the name). See above re: the latter point.

"The main power makes it appear overpowered if not restrained, but the restraints makes it appear too forced,"

That's again a taste-based argument, where it may feel that way to you but only because of your preferences. Actually the restraints are what they are for good reasons. They make sense with the basic idea of it being inspired by Matoran being a programming power.

I can especially relate to it personally having taken classes on programming, and done some on the side (like programming for my RPG computer game). You quickly learn that the precision concept isn't forced at all.

Keep in mind you don't really need to know some of the limits, like that it could be overheard or that it takes time; those can be deduced and were explained just so people wouldn't confuse it for being OP. The timing I think in this case you would need to know, and the need for precision. The mental backlash, I would not call essential, but it's a cool addition IMO and it helps make it even clearer it isn't OP.

This still leaves it as more complex of a definition than other powers, but again, that fits the precision theme.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

 

I was summoned by the sound of someone who possibly hates the properties of the mask of conjuring as much as me.

Ah, well, I don't hate it completely. I just dislike its design as-is. I'm more concerned about this voting at large because it has so very few voters in total. I've given the link to Reddit and a couple of friends of mine, but I can't help but think that only a miniscule fraction of the community - even the BZP community - knows about this poll's existence.

 

I don't hate it either, a mask that lets you have a number of powers briefly makes sense, but it's also being all complicated and dodgy about it, instead of :

A: making it a supermask,

B: making it grant the downside for any power called. (instead you have to... say your weakness? what?)

or C: making the description less technobabbly. xb

[Boidoh]

IIRC, you have to say the weakness out loud, so the enemy knows what it is.

[Katuko]

Both the power to copy other powers and to cast spells to write other powers are themselves powers.

Again: One is a script that does one thing. The other is a script you write yourself. There is a clear difference, as you make clear. As said, though, the issue is not with the power itself, it is with the somewhat technobabbly description that we could do well to fix.

 

Nobody's arguing differently -- this is missing the point of the argument. The point is that "this has X gain and the downsides that make it not OP are patched-on" logic fails when tested with examples you do accept, so shouldn't be used against ones you don't personally enjoy.

I mean that the downsides are patched on by the character him/herself, but this does not really work with either the magic stance (where they should be able to "feel" that something was wrong before it lashed out) or from the programming perspective (where you would either get a failure to run, or a crash on run, but not a crash before you were even finished writing). In a real programming language you would either get a script that doesn't run that all, or a script which runs but crashes. Making a mistake while writing the script itself would not instantly hit you with bad effects. It would only do so if you tried to run the failed program. And how are you supposed to know what the mask will consider a "fitting" downside, for instance? If I say "death laser with 5000 degrees Celsius output and 5 second energy charge-up", is that too much?

 

My taste issues comes from this trying to be magic and tech in one, but I don't feel it fulfills either.

 

I must say, though, it seems unlikely any of those opposing it would really dislike a story featuring it (if written well etc.).

I've said as much. But keep in mind that when you write that story, you evidently do not wish to include all the details about exact time limit etc. Why include the numbers in the mask, then, is my question?

 

I also like wizards who pull spells and cool powers out of their rears, but that is usually a different setting with a different tone, or at least it's established that any character does it. Here it's more... BIONICLE started getting more and more silly powers tacked on. Like, you run out of options eventually, when you make powers rigid and also generic concepts, but I do not think the solution is to make the new masks have less rigid or more extravagant powers. That is just compounding the issue.

 

I can't help but suspect this is coming more out of an anti-canonization preference and had the same power been made by LEGO directly these arguments would be much more unlikely.

I have disliked several canon powers as well, but right now this is mostly about Conjuring. Still, here goes:

- I dislike the Zatth because it is too random. One time it pulls out a useless fish, the other it grabs a leviathan, you have no way of knowing. A tiny change would let this mask fit better in: Let the user pick the nearby Rahi to summon, so that the limits are on range and focus, not on utter predictability.

- The Mohtrek. Why does it have to introduce all the silly timeline continuity issues by pulling clones from the past ad then sending them back afterwards? Have it work like so many other fictional powers and just clone the user on the spot (Naruto and Dragonball, plus plenty of video games, do this). That way you can still have them linked to the same form, and you can still have the injuries of one be mirrored on the others.

- The Mask of Undeath. We have discussed this one before. Do we really need an autopilot zombie in BIONICLE? I don't really think so. It's one of those odd things that are just tacked on.

 

Anything you know how to code right. Given the risk, in practice that means, except in extreme circumstances (where it just might be necessary), likely memorizing a few proven spells (maybe more if you have a book or the like). But yes, in a lot of situations it would (either way) be a last-resort power, which personally I like as I like stories where powers aren't an option, sometimes, yanno?

I'm guess I prefer the type of stories where either everyone has predefined powers ("Guys, you know I'm a vampire, I must wait until the sun goes down!") or the ones where they have purely equipment-based powers ("Sure, my thermal vision goggles are cool, but I can't use them in direct sunlight") or the ones where most people have established wizard magic ("If you give me a day to research the sun I can make a spell to shield you from sunburn"). BIONICLE has been a series in which you have a mix of one and two, and I'm reluctant to accept that any old Toa - who already have so many powers to choose from, options to exchange powers (Suva, Mask of Emulation) and options to recieve powered equipment... that they should even get a power that allows them to make more powers then and there.

 

A fair taste to have. Just remember that the mask image was meant to be on a Matoran's face, and Matoran don't as far as we know normally make Matoran masks in the shape of Legendary Kanohi.

Yes, and this is one reason why I don't like that we are sticking powers onto masks that appeared for a single frame in the comics - especially the ones that were just rough background objects. I'm a bit cynical at times, and I can't help but imagine that we eventually end up as Vrahno predicts here.

 

"is both too undefined and way too defined at the same time."

 

That doesn't really work, yanno. Where it really should be defined, it is.

It defines that you must state weaknesses out loud. It does not cite any examples, which makes it just as much up in the air as just saying that "the finished power will have certain limits and weaknesses based upon its design".

 

The duration is based on similar statements for other canon masks, and the fact that even with ones where it wasn't stated, it's understood that most do have a duration, and then a time to recharge. It also makes more sense for this one because it emphasizes its not being overpowered, that it's a small amount of time.

Yes. Understood, but never put into pure numbers.

 

Telepathic command could be possible, but the power was inspired by Matoran being a programming language, and it's normally spoken. Thought-based control also seems less confined to exact syntax and the like, so I think that would make its risk of that downside larger.

Their brains operate in the same language. When programming I restrain myself to the syntax and the inherent limitations of the program I am making. They can also manipulate the finer aspects of other powers with their thoughts, such as the Mask of Mind Control.

 

Plus, this way there's a clear method of thinking through what you're going to say first to make sure it's right and then speaking it, so you can't accidentally "think too hard" and go insane.

I'd assume that you would think it through, then mentally activate the "record" button, concentrate on the power you want, and then have the mask fix it up. Like VBA, when you turn on the code helper. It helps you with the exact syntax, but that does not mean you can't still mess it up royally.

 

"I believe it would have been much simpler to say that it allows the user to imagine a power, but it takes time and concentration to manifest it."

 

I wouldn't mind that, but if a carefully limited definition is going to get dislikes, I'd think one that sounds more open to the risk of being OP could get them all the more.

People will debate the OPness of anything anyway, so we might as well make it simpler in the first place.

 

Like Dragonball: The writer introduced characters who could read the "power level" of others with a scouter device. It displayed the power in numbers, leading to wild and unnecessary doting about numbers whenever characters fought. Soon enough the numbers became ridiculous, and the scouters were dropped from the series -- a good change in the mind of most fans. One character even joked about it later: "One does not predict or calculate power such as ours", he says to an android which tries to analyze him. He proceeds to destroy it easily after it told him he was obviously too weak to have any chance at winning.

 

I'd say this is such a case: We can debate the power itself until the world ends, but ditch the numbers.

 

Normally I would agree, but the whole idea of the theme for that mask was to place emphasis on precision, based on this being necessary in programming languages.

I enjoy programming, and I greatly enjoy powers with clear rules and limits, but this one is... well, not clear. It's pretty much the opposite of clear. I feel that it either needs a full library of functions and parameters, or it needs to be a tiny bit more "magic science" and a tiny bit less "do this and this and this, out loud".

 

Here again you're going beyond just taste, though. Again, it may feel self-evident to you that this is 'stupid' but really that just means you don't like it. It need not be seen that way at all. You don't really present any reason to think that; the only apparent reason is your preferences.

But you do see why I think it is silly, do you not? Speaking out loud to yourself to create a mentally activated power? What does the mask care? How does it even recieve and interpret the sound, for instance? If the mask had earphones and a mic I might be more open for this way of doing it.

 

That's again a taste-based argument, where it may feel that way to you but only because of your preferences. Actually the restraints are what they are for good reasons. They make sense with the basic idea of it being inspired by Matoran being a programming power.

Well, I am a programmer, and I know that text-to-speech interpretation is far more prone to errors than direct digital input (in this case Matoran mindwaves) would be. There is no reason to design a system which goes via the human's way of speaking if you can do it directly in the machine's way of speaking. Matoran is a programming language, yes, but again: If you can speak and it happens, then the system should also be smart enough to add the limits to the power by itself.

 

I can especially relate to it personally having taken classes on programming, and done some on the side (like programming for my RPG computer game). You quickly learn that the precision concept isn't forced at all.

Please, bones. I've taken programming classes and done games as well, I know what you are talking about. If you have a link to your game I'd be interested, by the way.

 

Keep in mind you don't really need to know some of the limits, like that it could be overheard or that it takes time; those can be deduced and were explained just so people wouldn't confuse it for being OP. The timing I think in this case you would need to know, and the need for precision. The mental backlash, I would not call essential, but it's a cool addition IMO and it helps make it even clearer it isn't OP.

 

This still leaves it as more complex of a definition than other powers, but again, that fits the precision theme.

I guess I'll just sum it up and say I'd prefer it to be based on deep mental concentration with appropriate limits added semi-automatically, the same way that you can program whatever you like but end up with lag, or something that does something else than what you thought. Taking the "safety label" off - such as making a death laser with no charge time and no cooldown - would just make it backfire on you. Edited December 11, 2014 by Katuko

[bonesiii]

"One is a script that does one thing. The other is a script you write yourself. There is a clear difference"

Yes, there's a difference; they're two separate powers, and intended to be. The point was, it's a power that enables Conjuring to work. It's a power to accept spoken scripts versus a power to accept absorbed 'scripts'. Each comes with upsides and downsides.

"it is with the somewhat technobabbly description that we could do well to fix"

Here we have the same issue of taste. As that's just subjective, it isn't something to 'fix'. Again, the whole idea was based on the fact that Matoran is a programming language, so a tech-like focus makes sense. But that connection is background anyways.

Reading ahead, I'm seeing a lot of overthinking and I don't want to lend undue credence to the claim that it's complicated by acting like a response must be complicated to defend it. You're bringing up multiple, largely irrelevant tangents that would make that conversation complicated, but you could do that for anything.

Like, to continue the analogy, discussing the exact sheild strength of the Hau, and what counts as being surprised, how (pun lol) the shield works (do unexpected things slip through and why? Or does the shield snap on like movie form, etc.?). Note that complex discussions about that have happened! And since it's basically a Star Trek shield (by description anyways) with an extra weakness "patched on", it's also "technobabbley".

But I will try to hit several points briefly:

-Yes, the backlash presumably hits once you finish the erroneous definition and the spell 'runs.'

-What's a fitting downside works the same way we as fans would judge these things for any power to make sure they're not OP. Use your imagination in specific cases.

-The time limits are stated since they're so short, and just saying they're unusually short begs the question of how short, so it's better to just define it. If people want to headcanon a different amount of time they can. I don't see that as essential.

-Yes, different stories are different. And each is different from the other.

-I don't agree about Zatth; plenty of stories have "summon a monster" powers.

-I kinda agree about the Mohtrek. I am a fan of temporal mechanics, but since Greg made "no time travel" a rule, it feels like breaking a rule. Although he did say the Vahi could technically do it, so I suppose it works, as an out-story rule rather than in-story (and it does make some sense in a story about destiny).

-Undeath -- let's just save that for discussions about the power. Suffice to say that again, in-story it does make sense, and it seemed poetically appropriate for the dead-eyed Matoran shown wearing that shape in World.

-Defining powers for the other shapes (of the clear ones) that were seen in-story makes sense as explained in past topics, esp. for a worldbuilding story like this. We had noticed that these were being neglected, and it was inconsistent with 2001 defining every mask that was seen. You can dislike it if you want, but fact remains it made things more consistent. In hindsight (as this was before the canonization reforms of the Story Squad), should have thought of letting other fans suggest powers, but hindsight 20/20. We -were- planning a Kanohi contest to give people that chance, and Greg seemed open to it, but we ran out of time before he had to leave BZP.

-No, it doesn't cite examples of spells, but people should be able to think of them on their own.

-With respect, all those "it could still be mental-only" ideas, while possible, seem like way overcomplicating things unnecessarily since 1) it was based on the concept of a spoken language that is a programming language, and 2) we already have "think it first then speak it when you're sure" to do the same thing, plus it adds another necessary way to not be OP that mental-only wouldn't.

-Simpler isn't always better. Nothing wrong with that, but this is one power out of many. People can handle a little bit of variety, yanno? But again, it's not so complex as you're making it out to be. This also kinda contradicts the complicated mental thingamabob you're talking about, when just talking is simpler.

-No, I don't see why it would be silly to have a power based on one of the more interesting reveals, that Matoran are always speaking a programming language, and have it be spoken for the power. Again, this is the kind of thing that personal tastes often cause -- it feels obvious to you because you're looking within yourself to judge that, and finding your own tastes inside you. Others don't. Speaking a 'spell' was the whole idea.


"I guess I'll just sum it up and say I'd prefer it to be based on deep mental concentration with appropriate limits added semi-automatically, the same way that you can program whatever you like but end up with lag, or something that does something else than what you thought."

I think you're missing that you're coming up with this because the power as I defined it is inspiring you to think of it as an alternate version. But I wanted all these powers to be inspired closely by Bionicle concepts, like Biomechanics and Rebounding (2001 MNOG disks), where possible. If we'd done that, we'd be taking it farther away from its original inspiration for seemingly no constructive reason. It's another valid version of the concept, but that's arbitrary.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

what's odd here is you're saying it's not hard to grasp, but it never takes you less than two paragraphs to describe it. hmmm...

[Boidoh]

Erm.. Doesn't he always do that for everything?

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Erm.. Doesn't he always do that for everything?

 

Yeah, but if he wants to come across as simple, logical, and objective like he says. it'd probably help if he spoke simply, logically, and objectively more often?

 

*shrugs*

[Katuko]

Like, to continue the analogy, discussing the exact sheild strength of the Hau, and what counts as being surprised, how (pun lol) the shield works (do unexpected things slip through and why? Or does the shield snap on like movie form, etc.?). Note that complex discussions about that have happened! And since it's basically a Star Trek shield (by description anyways) with an extra weakness "patched on", it's also "technobabbley".

If you are aware of the incoming danger, it is blocked. If you are not aware - such as because you do can't see it - it goes through. That's it. Simple in concept, simple to describe. We've seen it illustrated multiple times. The shield always turns on in time. This is not technobabble.

 

It would be technobabble if we started describing the radius of the shield, or the number of seconds you can keep blocking a continuous beam, or the amount of force in tons which it could resist before breaking.

 

-What's a fitting downside works the same way we as fans would judge these things for any power to make sure they're not OP. Use your imagination in specific cases.

Of course, but here we assume that it is the character who comes up with their own weakness and state it out loud in clear terms, not that they are working with an intrinsic "feel" of what doesn't work (such as a laser requiring too much energy).

 

-Yes, different stories are different. And each is different from the other.

Indeed.

 

-I don't agree about Zatth; plenty of stories have "summon a monster" powers.

But most I have seen has "summon specific monster" or "summon chosen monster" or "summon monster of a certain size". The Zatth is completely out of the user's control.

 

-I kinda agree about the Mohtrek. I am a fan of temporal mechanics, but since Greg made "no time travel" a rule, it feels like breaking a rule. Although he did say the Vahi could technically do it, so I suppose it works, as an out-story rule rather than in-story (and it does make some sense in a story about destiny).

I believe he explicitly said the Vahi could not time travel, because that's when he was first asked about time travel. But I'm glad we can agree on something.

 

-Undeath -- let's just save that for discussions about the power. Suffice to say that again, in-story it does make sense, and it seemed poetically appropriate for the dead-eyed Matoran shown wearing that shape in World.

I'm sure it could also have been a Mask of Power Scream, befitting it's open mouth.

 

-Defining powers for the other shapes (of the clear ones) that were seen in-story makes sense as explained in past topics, esp. for a worldbuilding story like this. We had noticed that these were being neglected, and it was inconsistent with 2001 defining every mask that was seen. You can dislike it if you want, but fact remains it made things more consistent. In hindsight (as this was before the canonization reforms of the Story Squad), should have thought of letting other fans suggest powers, but hindsight 20/20. We -were- planning a Kanohi contest to give people that chance, and Greg seemed open to it, but we ran out of time before he had to leave BZP.

See, if there'd been a contest, I would likely be more willing to accept some of these things, because then there would have been a period of discussion and votes for each entry. As it is, it's just another random fan-made power that honestly feels tacked on. I know I am not alone in thinking this. See other members in this topic, as well as the comic I linked.

 

-No, it doesn't cite examples of spells, but people should be able to think of them on their own.

We do, but evidently we all think of different things.

 

-With respect, all those "it could still be mental-only" ideas, while possible, seem like way overcomplicating things unnecessarily since 1) it was based on the concept of a spoken language that is a programming language, and 2) we already have "think it first then speak it when you're sure" to do the same thing, plus it adds another necessary way to not be OP that mental-only wouldn't.

How is that over-complicating it? You are adding spoken commands, whereas mental commands would already be inherent in literally every single other mask power. The Komau, in particular, transmits mental commands of sorts to the target, or some equivalent.

 

-Simpler isn't always better. Nothing wrong with that, but this is one power out of many. People can handle a little bit of variety, yanno? But again, it's not so complex as you're making it out to be. This also kinda contradicts the complicated mental thingamabob you're talking about, when just talking is simpler.

You like to act as if thinking it is more complicated than speaking it with a specific syntax, don't you? In a series where mental commands to activate powers already happen all the time but vocal commands do not.

 

-No, I don't see why it would be silly to have a power based on one of the more interesting reveals, that Matoran are always speaking a programming language, and have it be spoken for the power. Again, this is the kind of thing that personal tastes often cause -- it feels obvious to you because you're looking within yourself to judge that, and finding your own tastes inside you. Others don't. Speaking a 'spell' was the whole idea.

They should not need a mask to do it if they are really speaking a programming language - the commands would already be valid software for the hardware they are running. Again, it's personal taste on your part as well.

 

I think you're missing that you're coming up with this because the power as I defined it is inspiring you to think of it as an alternate version. But I wanted all these powers to be inspired closely by Bionicle concepts, like Biomechanics and Rebounding (2001 MNOG disks), where possible. If we'd done that, we'd be taking it farther away from its original inspiration for seemingly no constructive reason. It's another valid version of the concept, but that's arbitrary.

The concept is a not a new one. As you say, other series also allow people to invent their own spells and tech and powers. But what you feel is inspired by BIONICLE is different from what others feel is inspired by BIONICLE. To me, speaking a power definition out loud is not BIONICLE in any way, because every power in BIONICLE is based upon mental activation, or else forging a tech object and triggering it. Great Beings used programming speech, but then they used it directly to the beings they had created. Beings which communicated in this language, making it programming (a set of instructions) for the beings, but not for the powers they wield. The beings activated their powers through internal, not external, commands; something which makes sense. Spoken powers appear in other series I like, but I do not think we need them in BIONICLE when the existing system of mental commands will suffice. Edited December 12, 2014 by Katuko