Patient Counseling - OOC Topic

[Timageness]

This Halmos must be The Asylum's version of Booker DeWitt #123.

Frankly, I'm surprised nobody's succeeded in killing him yet.

[Nato G]

I'm surprised nobody's succeeded in killing him yet.

 

We've certainly tried. 

[Ghidora131]

Well, we're in the same position if we kill Tridax in corpus.

 

Game Over.

[silo]

Guys, if all of this autohitting, godmodding etc. etc. etc. continues, I have to say I'm out, much as I love Obruent. Sorry.

[The UltimoScorp]

Hardly.

 

There would still be plenty to do in that world, with the Rahkshi dealing with the consequences of killing a Makuta.

[Ghidora131]

That is from your perspective, not the perspective of Ultron.

[Kovika: Visorak Lord]

Would you kindly kill Hamlos?

[Not Quite Dead]

That is from your perspective, not the perspective of Ultron.

 

I am 99.9% sure that Ultron would deal just fine if Tridax were killed.

 

Because he has his RPG plot set up correctly, wherein the story revolves around a whole host of interesting and unique characters where train tracks aren't really required. Also, 135 is dead and I'm done here. I had a bit of fun and wish you good luck in your future RPG endeavors, hopefully you learned a lot here and like the kid learning to ride a bike by crashing, will become a safe and responsible bicyclist with time.

[IcarusBen]

Have a good afterlife.

 

I've decided to call upon a mod to help get things back on track and hopefully allow us to reach a compromise. Hopefully, he'll get back to me soon.

[silo]

Would you kindly kill Hamlos?

I've tried. If Halmos keeps being invincible, I'll probably leave.

Edited May 20, 2015 by 000

[Kovika: Visorak Lord]

No one gets my joke.

[IcarusBen]

No one gets my joke.

A man chooses, an RPer obeys.

 

Get it? Heh...

[Kovika: Visorak Lord]

 

No one gets my joke.

A man chooses, an RPer obeys.

 

Get it? Heh...

 

"Would you kindly head to Hamlos' office and kill the son-of-a-brakas?" -Definitely Not Atlas

[IcarusBen]

Hamlos? As in Peter Porker?

 

Well, it's not as bad as whoever spelt it Nhye.

 

EDIT: Forgot to mention; got a response back from GSR. He said he'll review the problem tonight and get back to me. Hopefully this can all be sorted out in a situation that benefits both parties.

Edited May 20, 2015 by IcarusBen

[Nato G]

The issue here is that instead of adapting your plot to fit with what the players have been doing, you're just bending whatever rules you feel like to keep your staff NPCs alive and railroad your entire playerbase. 

 

Despite having this pointed out to you numerous times, you have done nothing to change your ways. For this reason, I'm going to do something I feel like I should've done lone ago, and leave this game. 

[Snelly]

Yeah I don't do jack in this game anymore anyway. I'm gone too.

[GSR]

Okay.  This is the part where I would like to lay out some magic set of words that fixes everything, forever, and things go on perfectly happy.  But this is a game I don't know all the ins and outs of, that has seen drama in the past, coming to me with a problem halfway through one of the longer weeks I've had in a while.  As such, I do not have a magic set of words that fixes everything, forever.  Here's what I do have:

 

This game has had quite a few bumps in the road that have frustrated players and GMs alike.  On the GMs' side, I hear frustration that planned plots aren't going well; on the players' side I hear complaints of railroading and inconsistent rule application.  I think it's important I'm honest here: Ben, Ghidora, you guys have had a lot of miscommunications over the course of this RP, and it's hurt things.  I'm not asking for perfection (I've heard more than my fair share of horror stories about BZPRPG management), but it seems like we're hitting a breaking point here.

 

At the moment, with tempers inflamed, I don't think anything good is coming of the RP.  I'm going to temporarily lock the IC topic.  Here's what I want from you all: to step back for a moment, take a few deep breaths, and then players and GMs alike - I want to hear what you think the issues with this game are, how to fix them, and where the game can go from here.  It could be that the answer is "it doesn't", which is okay.  Not every RP is a success.  But I want to see an effort from the folks involved to understand what's going on here and how to handle it.  It's not only good for this game, but it's good for everyone involved as RPers to understand where and how problems can arise.

 

Let's talk.

[IcarusBen]

The problem I see is a massive lack of respect and cooperation coming from both sides.

 

On one hand, we (the GMs) have a story planned that requires certain things to happen in advance (solitary blowing up, monster goes dead, Nyhe living, etc.) On the other hand, the players have their own stories planned and of course that's gonna frustrate us. The problem is that we've been unable to compromise at all. Not to mention GMs playing by one set of rules and players playing under another.

 

Of course, I'm going to lay a little bit of the blame on the playerbase for not bothering to show common courtesy. You want to know why it's not a rule that you ask before killing someone? Because it's such common sense that it should'nt NEED to be a rule!

 

Of course, me and Ghidora haven't been doing too hot in communication skills, and we definitely need to work on that.

[Tea-rex]

Of course, me and Ghidora haven't been doing too hot in communication skills, and we definitely need to work on that.

The prime problem right there - there's not enough communication, not just between you and Ghidora, but between you and us. Nobody is satisfied, nobody is happy, all because we don't know what should happen or what will happen.

Truthfully, we shouldn't know what's coming up next, but when you make everything over-convoluted with little-to-no explanation, it doesn't help matters.

 

In short: Good idea, bad execution.

[The UltimoScorp]

I'd like to point out that I didn't ask about killing Halmos in Ko.

 

It still happened because the circumstances.

 

The reason it isn't a rule is because then no one would ever die because we would want to keep playing those characters.

 

As well, I've noticed a Huuuge abuse of GM power with auto hits and unrealistic dodging.

 

All for the sake of trying to tell one story, which is sort of understandable. It's frustrating when your story or plan doesn't go well.

 

That said, it's your responsibility as a GM to help the players tell their story. If that means changing yours to adapt, that's just something you'll have to do because at the end of the day, your characters are no more powerful than any of ours. They have flaws, and reflexes and strengths and weaknesses just like any normal person.

 

When you as Gms don't play them fairly, you're going to lose players. Which you have. Best advice I can offer at this point is to let it go, learn from this, and use it to improve yourself in future projects.

[Perp]

 

When the rules keep changing, I feel like this;

 

 

[Timageness]

Honestly, if I didn't like Sal so much as a character, I'd probably be jumping ship too, because this mess has drastically reduced my interest in seeing this RPG to the end. That being said, I can actually see where both sides of the argument are coming from in some respects, so I can't really say which side is definitively correct.

True, the GMs do have every right to attempt to get their story across, but bending the rules of the game just to keep characters supposedly necessary for the plot is completely unfair and the staff characters should be limited to the same rules that the players are. For example, does Halmos really need to be the warden throughout the entire game if a replacement would be both briefed in running the place and any story relevance his character specifically had could be just as easily discovered via hidden journal entries or something similar? Probably not, and while I'm partial to liking Nyhe a lot more that him, I don't specifically see a reason why she couldn't effectively be killed off either without little to absolutely no harm done to the plot of the game. The thing about creating a story for other people to play through (and hopefully enjoy while they do so) is that sometimes the players are going to attempt something that wasn't originally anticipated during its original outline.

Now I know that Ghidora and Icarus got some flak because they practically came out Day One and said that they were winging the plot, and I appreciate the fact that they're actually trying to take the time to craft a more structured story, but at the end of the day, The Asylum isn't a book, and the story needs to have some more wiggle room in certain areas rather than feeling like it's just trying to push the players through the ridiculously and horribly constructed walls of the worst possible maze in human existence. This could be solved by having each GM govern over a specific area of the game so that we can say goodbye to the conflicting posts, it could be solved by having the GMs take more time to get back to and stay on the same page (both of which should be done anyway, even without taking this particular issue into account), but one thing is for certain, and that is that the problem needs to be solved. Being snide towards the people who are offering you guys suggestions on making both the game they want to play (because let's face it, you guys wouldn't have much of a player-base if we weren't at least somewhat interested in it) and the game you want to keep running (self explanatory) even better isn't exactly helping things either, and showing at least some consideration would be nice even if it doesn't quite work that well.

As for the players, from where I'm standing, we as a group need to be a little bit more lenient as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is Ghidora and Icarus' first time as GMs. Just because they're doing something that you don't necessarily agree with, that doesn't mean that you should be doing it too because like it or not, we've had a part in creating this mess as well. Auto-hitting and flaring tempers shouldn't be a thing no matter what side of the fence you're on. Another mistake that I've realised we've all been making, one I freely admit to doing myself, I might add, is the fact that all of our characters seem to come pre-programmed with the escape mentality as soon as we enter the door. Now don't get me wrong; it's perfectly fine that our characters want to spend as little of their time there as possible, but if 90% of the active players attempt to escape the facility every three or so days IRL, then Ghidora and Icarus are going to have to spend time on the defensive when it would be much better used organising and actually bringing about events that concern the actual plot of the game. Yes, I know that Halmos is a major jerk that doesn't give much consideration towards the patients, but if we keep trying to bash his skull in every in-game hour or so, not only is that going to worsen his IC opinion of the patients (if that's at all possible), but it's also going to detract from your overall experience playing the game because not a lot of interesting stuff (like that idea I had about the Solitary riots, for example) is going to happen in the meantime.

Agree or not with my opinions, that's just my two cents on the entire issue. Hopefully this problem can see some sort of resolution in the near future.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Timageness

[Not Quite Dead]

I see three issues.

 

A) The problem of unlikable plot characters and plot railroading

B) The problem of GM godmodding. ie, powers as the plot demands and new, unexpected developments sans foreshadowing

C) Lack of communication between GMs and players and between GMs.

 

C is an easy fix. Communicate more, pick a GM you get along with and be open about things between each other and with the players.

 

A and B would be tougher to fix in this game, hence my suggestion you let it end. The important thing to do is review the issues you've had and make sure they don't crop up in your future projects.

 

EDIT: In case I sounded pessimistic here, I apologize.

 

But my point and belief is that you both CAN learn and move forward from this and become better as GMs and RPers. I know a lot of people here might have some trepidation regarding projects from either of you for some time, but you know what? Prove them wrong. 

Edited May 21, 2015 by Tiragath

[Kovika: Visorak Lord]

I say let it go, learn from your mistakes. I was going to write a long explaination, but Tima and Tira just summed up what I was going to say.

[IcarusBen]

Honestly, if it wasn't because I've poured five months of my life into this project, I'd be willing to let it go, too. But I've spent a lot of time on this thing, Ghidora has too, and I'm sure neither of us want this thing to end right now in such a bad place in the game.

 

I do really agree with a lot of what you're all saying, except for one thing Tima said. I quote;

 

For example, does Halmos really need to be the warden throughout the entire game if a replacement would be both briefed in running the place and any story relevance his character specifically had could be just as easily discovered via hidden journal entries or something similar? Probably not, and while I'm partial to liking Nyhe a lot more that him, I don't specifically see a reason why she couldn't effectively be killed off either without little to absolutely no harm done to the plot of the game.

To which, I say; could you kill off, say, Lex Luthor, and just replace him with a Captain Ersatz? No.... he's a pretty integral part of the Superman mythos. The same goes for Halmos and Nyhe. Past events are why they need to stay, it's future events tied in with character development, I.E.

 

In part of a PM Ghidora sent me (I won't post it here unless he gives me permission) he stated that if it was a rule that you ask before killing someone, then no one would die. I've killed my characters when people have asked me. Not each and every time, mind you, but when I feel my character has reached his/her/it's conclusion, I'll give him/her/it a proper sendoff. It's when people don't ask that I get a little bit... iffy. I spend months planning this character, and it all goes down the drain because someone didn't have enough courtesy to ask if they could turn my character's head into a rotten tomato.

 

I think I've said what I could. I do feel this thing is beyond hope, but until Ghidora throws in the towel, I'll try and stick around. Hopefully, my next project doesn't go pooey.

[Not Quite Dead]

Ah, but there is your mistake.

 

Lex Luthor can be killed off and the consequences can be dealt with, in fact, events like that are often great for story and character development. The issue comes when you try and replace them with a Cpt Ersatz, not when they need to be replaced. Instead, you need to bring in a new character, hopefully one equally as compelling as the former without being a clone.

[IcarusBen]

Ah, but there is your mistake.

 

Lex Luthor can be killed off and the consequences can be dealt with, in fact, events like that are often great for story and character development. The issue comes when you try and replace them with a Cpt Ersatz, not when they need to be replaced. Instead, you need to bring in a new character, hopefully one equally as compelling as the former without being a clone.

Except the problem comes when a character is essential to a plot because of something that happened to xem that would shape xes future actions.

[Not Quite Dead]

Creating a character like that is a mistake in a game like this.

 

In a book or other static media, it works fine. This is dynamic media that changes based on inputs. Characters like that only ever serve to divide and inflame people. For examples look no further than Heuani from the last BZPRPG arc. He was an example of issue A I brought up and people hated it, they only hated it more when he got taken out by issue B.

[IcarusBen]

Heuani... Heuani...

 

Wasn't he a GM character?

[The UltimoScorp]

Sort of the point, yeah. Heuani from what I've heard....

 

Had plot armor a mile thick.

 

Unrealistically so.

[Not Quite Dead]

Heuani... Heuani...

 

Wasn't he a GM character?

 

Yes, my point is that that doesn't matter. If you make a guy unlikable and unkillable, people will get mad.

[Perp]

Hopefully, my next project doesn't go pooey.

 

This statement irks me a bit.

 

It reeks of the attitude of "Hmm, I'll show some ###### at the wall and see if it sticks" which bothers me because it makes me think you're just a dude that's just doing things without really thinking ahead on the implications of what you're doing in the first place.

 

Whether or not that has any semblance of truth, it is not how one should handle the responsibility of planning and crafting an RPG and subsequently GMing it.

 

Instead of just hoping that whatever you do next works, perhaps you should take the time to, as I have previously said, participate more as a general player in RPGs rather than trying your hand again and again as GM until you've learned enough to sustain an RPG without it potentially falling into chaos.

 

Essentially, I'm telling you to do more research and get more experience first before you go ahead and GM another RPG.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Perplexed

[IcarusBen]

I can't hope my next project doesn't suffer the same fate?

 

And BTW, I'm getting back into the main BZPRPG as well as trying my hand at Bionifight.

[Snelly]

The problem I see is a massive lack of respect and cooperation coming from both sides.

 

Respect is earned. 

 

 

On one hand, we (the GMs) have a story planned that requires certain things to happen in advance (solitary blowing up, monster goes dead, Nyhe living, etc.) On the other hand, the players have their own stories planned and of course that's gonna frustrate us. The problem is that we've been unable to compromise at all. Not to mention GMs playing by one set of rules and players playing under another.

 

Why should player created stories frustrate you? This is an text rpg, you're encouraged to make your own stories for your characters.

 

 

Of course, I'm going to lay a little bit of the blame on the playerbase for not bothering to show common courtesy. You want to know why it's not a rule that you ask before killing someone? Because it's such common sense that it should'nt NEED to be a rule!

 

Obviously you should have put that in the rules, don't assume everyone automatically knows these unwritten rules, obvious or not. 

 

 

Of course, me and Ghidora haven't been doing too hot in communication skills, and we definitely need to work on that.

 

Yeah, start with actually communicating.

[Perp]

I can't hope my next project doesn't suffer the same fate?

 

You shouldn't need to worry about your next RPG failing spectacularly if you invest time in studying up on how regular players interact within an RPG.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Perplexed

[IcarusBen]

 

I can't hope my next project doesn't suffer the same fate?

 

You shouldn't need to worry about your next RPG failing spectacularly if you invest time in studying up on how regular players interact within an RPG.

 

That is a very bad mindset to have. No matter how much prep you do, no matter how hard you try, failing is always a possibility.

[Perp]

Oh, I didn't realize being confident in what you've created is a "bad mindset."

[Kovika: Visorak Lord]

Ben, my advice? Let his madhouse go, get into a good RPG, say, Corpus Rahkshi or BZPRPG, take some time to study RPG's, join in one as a player, interact, ect. Once you've built up enough knowledge and experience on the subject, then try your hand at being a GM again. Who knows, maybe it'll work better in a second attempt?

[Nato G]

 

On one hand, we (the GMs) have a story planned that requires certain things to happen in advance (solitary blowing up, monster goes dead, Nyhe living, etc.) On the other hand, the players have their own stories planned and of course that's gonna frustrate us. The problem is that we've been unable to compromise at all.

 

Now I think we all know that this isn't true. For example: solitary blew up, and came back a few hours later, which had zero significance to the plot, and served only to confuse everyone - player and character both.

 

You're both just making this stuff up as you go along, and you've admitted as much in the past. 

 

Not to mention GMs playing by one set of rules and players playing under another.

 

We, as the players, have followed all of your rules - even the stupid "no one can kill the monster" one - to the letter. You, as the GM's, have been exploiting and abusing every rule you can think of to force the players to adhere to what you want to happen. 

 

Of course, I'm going to lay a little bit of the blame on the playerbase for not bothering to show common courtesy. You want to know why it's not a rule that you ask before killing someone? Because it's such common sense that it should'nt NEED to be a rule!

 

"Common sense" dictates that if a character is put in a position where they should die, then they should die. Unless you make a rule saying otherwise - which you did not - then people will follow that line of thinking. 

 

Also, blaming the players for your inability to play fairly in your own game.... that's really not cool.

 

Honestly, if it wasn't because I've poured five months of my life into this project, I'd be willing to let it go, too. But I've spent a lot of time on this thing, Ghidora has too, and I'm sure neither of us want this thing to end right now in such a bad place in the game.

 

I'm going to be brutally honest here: this game has been living on borrowed time for quite a while now, and I'm honestly surprised it took this long to finally crash and burn. You only got a handful of players when this game started, and that number has been gradually dwindling since the beginning.

 

I spend months planning this character, and it all goes down the drain because someone didn't have enough courtesy to ask if they could turn my character's head into a rotten tomato.

 

As I recall, Eman tried to stick a shiv through Nyhe's neck while she was lying face down on the ground with her lower spine severed. And considering that the room was being attacked by some kind of crazy Vahki monster, and Nyhe was the only qualified doctor present, her chances of realistically surviving the fight were incredibly low anyway. 

 

You put your character in a situation where survival was practically impossible, but instead of accepting that, you chose to pull a random guard NPC out of your butt and have him intervene in a fight with autohits. 

 

Except the problem comes when a character is essential to a plot because of something that happened to xem that would shape xes future actions.

 

I think this is an issue we players have been slightly less vocal about, but you've been treating your staff character and NPCs as if they're the heroes of the story when, from the perspective of every single player character, they're clearly the villains.

 

That named guard was the only person to be attacked by the monster and survive. Halmos seems to possess teleportation abilities that allow him to be wherever the plot demands.  When the monster was attacking Nyhe pulled a giant superweapon out of nowhere (which didn't work anyway, which led to the nonsense post that caused a whole week of players refusing to post).

 

These games are supposed to be about the players, not your GM characters. GM characters exist to shape and nudge the plot where needed, not to tie everyone to the railroad tracks in the path of the oncoming train. 

 

If you're going to make characters whose sole purpose of existing is to imprison, torture and torment every one of the PCs, then you shouldn't be surprised when they try to kill them. And you shouldn't complain when they succeed. 

Edited May 21, 2015 by Locus

[IcarusBen]

Two things, one; Locus, we haven't been trying to treat the GM characters as heroes. Well, maybe Nyhe as an anti-hero who sorta snapped, but definitely not Halmos.

 

I think the best way to describe it is if you're playing Morrowind, and are off to go and stop Dagoth Ur, only to discover that another adventurer was busy killing him already and you've arrived too late.

 

Actually, that's a really, really horrid way of putting it. It's really hard to describe.

 

Two; Ghidora has given me permission to leak a private message to you guys.

 

 

Okay, issue here.

 

While it may make sense to you, asking for permission before killing someone is NOT a rule, nor is it common sense. It has never been in any RPG and never will be. It's more along the lines of Players wanting to do whatever they want because 1) they don't see the main GM characters as authoritative figures and 2) they have little respect for me or my thoughts.

 

Really.

 

Most of it isn't about you, but you happen to also be taking the hits when they throw them at me, making it seem as though they're naturally opposed to you for no reason. And these people have respected the authority of RPG owners from every other RPG except ours, meaning it's based around personal bias from the playerbase.

 

I've told them before, if they don't like the game, Leave. They apparently do, because they're trying to run things their way, by their thought processes, which won't work, because half of them don't know how to run one of these, much less a horror strategy game where all Karz goes loose.

 

To sum it up, asking for permission for death is illogical because then barely anyone would die and there would be no challenge. And the only sensible people playing this game are the ones who will answer logically and reasonably in the OOC Topic from GSR's "question".

 

I don't necessarily agree with everything he says (though he does bring up some good points) but I wanted you guys to see his point of view.