Jump to content

  • Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In   
  • Create Account

Welcome to BZPower!

Hi there, while we hope you enjoy browsing through the site, there's a lot more you can do if you register. The process is easy and you can use your Google, Facebook, or Twitter account to make it even faster. Some perks of joining include:
  • Create your own topics, participate in existing discussions, and vote in polls
  • Show off your creations, stories, art, music, and movies and play member and staff-run games
  • Enter contests to win free LEGO sets and other prizes, and vote to decide the winners
  • Participate in raffles, including exclusive raffles for new members, and win free LEGO sets
  • Send private messages to other members
  • Organize with other members to attend or send your MOCs to LEGO fan events all over the world
  • Much, much more!
Enjoy your visit!


Photo

Various languages in BIONICLE?

matoran agori language species alphabet

  • Please log in to reply
127 replies to this topic

#41 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 11 2013 - 11:16 PM

I should clarify that when I say burden of proof, what I mean is not actually "proof" (since that would be canon information, like you say), but whether I've found a theory sufficiently convincing.

Well, would you agree that the three possibilities are gave are the only options (at least I can't seem to think of any others offhand)? Which would you prefer and why, if any, out of curiosity?

 

Re: x -- good point about ks vs. z. It does seem even less likely that it could mean both those, with the exact same rules as English (although the "infinite variety happenstance" explanation works still), but for example, is Xia Zia or Ksia, or something else?

 

I'm a big fan of the German ch sound, which I usually spell "kh" in fictional languages (so Morbuzakh would rhyme with German Bach in my preferences). Maybe "x" is a spelling of this sound. So it would be Khia. And Vortixx would be a drawn-out kh; Vortikhhh. :P If so, that would make the Krana Kha vs. Za.

 

Or ks would still work there; Krana Ksa. Probably the wisest theory is "strict ks" if we assume that it doesn't have the exact same rules as English, to preserve all the Makuta names like Teridax.

 

There's also the possibility that they don't actually spell all these different things with the same letter in "actual" Matoran, so Xia might be spelled with the Z letter actually. :shrugs:

 

 

But then what seperates Xa from Za?   EDIT: perhaps they are seperated only by the symbol representing them.  Like the homophones Knight/Night. 

 

"kh" for me usually signifies a voicing of the "K', or giving it a little more air than usual.  So "Morbuzakh" would be pronounced /MOR-bu-zak(ha)/ as opposed to just /MOR-bu-zak/.  If that makes sense. 


Edited by darthme, Jun 11 2013 - 11:18 PM.

  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles

#42 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,496 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Jun 11 2013 - 11:22 PM

I meant, maybe the Krana is Ksa, but all other uses could still follow English rules. So "actual x" could be "strict ks" including if it starts a word, while other "apparent initial x"s could be "actual z"s.


  • 0

#43 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 11 2013 - 11:27 PM

I meant, maybe the Krana is Ksa, but all other uses could still follow English rules. So "actual x" could be "strict ks" including if it starts a word, while other "apparent initial x"s could be "actual z"s.

 

Makes sense. It would be easier to pronounce /zia/ for Xia instead of /ksia/.  There aren't even that many word-initial 'X's that I know of in the Matoran Universe anyway. 


  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles

#44 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,496 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Jun 11 2013 - 11:36 PM

Yeah, just from a quick BS01 search, I think the only other one is Kraata Xi (Fragmentation). Wonder if that would be "actual Zi" or "actual Ksi" then. :shrugs:

 

Admittedly my search isn't exhaustive -- the autocomplete for pages gives only Xia, and Xa and Xi are the only ones I saw from glancing through the Languages page. :shrugs:


  • 0

#45 Offline Illuminatus

Illuminatus
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Outstanding BZP Citizens
  • Mask of Light Unveiled

  • 5,178 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Jun 12 2013 - 11:18 AM

Personally, I'm more inclined to support the "strict KS" pattern, regardless of the X's position in a word. Or perhaps it could be a strict "KS/KZ" rule.

 

On a side note, as I am not a native English speaker (though currently indistinguishable from one, mind you, hah), it was quite awkward for me to pronounce Kopeke. I always assumed it was koh-PECK-eh, and not koh-PEEK (like Little Bo Peep). You have to admit, Kopeke (when pronounced "correctly") sounds quite off in comparison to most of the other names we've seen in 2001-2003.


  • 0

illuminati_bionicle_180.png


#46 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 12 2013 - 02:20 PM

I always pronounced it /ko-PEK-ee/, with a long 'e' on the final syllable.  Just like I always though Lewa was /LEE-wa/ instead of /LAY-wa/.  I guess there is no long e sound in Matoran. 


  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles

#47 Offline Master Inika

Master Inika
  • Members
  • Tahnok-Kal Overloaded

  • 4,441 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 12 2013 - 04:34 PM

In the promotional Bohrok-Kal CDs, Xa and Za are both pronounced "za."


  • 0

makusdiary.png

 

99% of BZPower has grown out of this pointless fad. If you're part of the 1% willing

to cling to it out of an irrational pseudo-nostalgia, copy and paste this into your signature!


#48 Offline Atamai

Atamai
  • Members
  • Tohunga

  • 30 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 13 2013 - 12:45 AM

I always assumed it was koh-PECK-eh, and not koh-PEEK (like Little Bo Peep). You have to admit, Kopeke (when pronounced "correctly") sounds quite off in comparison to most of the other names we've seen in 2001-2003.

For the record, your original pronunciation is how it's pronounced in Maori, but BS01 says the latter is correct in our canon. I would come up with a list of meanings for the names in Maori, however I don't know it'd be relevant to the topic.


  • 0

firesword.gif


#49 Offline Illuminatus

Illuminatus
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Outstanding BZP Citizens
  • Mask of Light Unveiled

  • 5,178 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Jun 13 2013 - 02:02 AM

I always assumed it was koh-PECK-eh, and not koh-PEEK (like Little Bo Peep). You have to admit, Kopeke (when pronounced "correctly") sounds quite off in comparison to most of the other names we've seen in 2001-2003.

 

For the record, your original pronunciation is how it's pronounced in Maori, but BS01 says the latter is correct in our canon. I would come up with a list of meanings for the names in Maori, however I don't know it'd be relevant to the topic.

 

Yeah, just like Taipu is pronounced "TAY-poo". Sometimes, I'm sincerely let down with the story team's decisions in this regard.

 

As for that list you mentioned, I was recently considering making an "etymological dictionary" for all the known words in BIONICLE.


  • 0

illuminati_bionicle_180.png


#50 Offline Atamai

Atamai
  • Members
  • Tohunga

  • 30 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 13 2013 - 02:49 AM

As for that list you mentioned, I was recently considering making an "etymological dictionary" for all the known words in BIONICLE.

Maybe I could help you out on that sometime!


  • 0

firesword.gif


#51 Offline Infrared

Infrared
  • Outstanding BZPower Citizens
  • Armored Protector

  • 322 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Jun 13 2013 - 12:46 PM

(Some of this is rehashing, but it might add a new perspective so you can skip the first two paragraphs if you want but feel free to read them as well.)

 

I imagine that a lot of these pronunciation choices have been tailored for an English-speaking audiences, and don't necessarily represent how they would actually be pronounced in Matoran (they have been "half-translated," to use the term from before). I think a good example of this is the name "Orde." I don't know if Matoran has silent letters, but I think it's possible that in actuality it's either spelled "Ord" or it's pronounced "Orday."

 

To think of this (and the "x" pronunciation issue) in real-world terms, look for example at people who speak French as their first language and who learn English later. French has no "hard th" sound (or, if you want to be technical, voiced dental fricative), which is used very commonly in English since it appears in the word "the" and in a lot of pronouns ("this," "that," etc.). This means that they pronounce the hard th sound like a "z," giving rise to pronunciations such as "ze" and "zis" because it's a sound they're used to making. Another example is loanwords; when foreign words are assimilated into a language, the structure of the word remains similar if not the same but the accent and pronunciation rules of the new language change the pronunciation a bit. Matoran might be like this, too: pronunciations have been optimized for English and maybe other Germanic languages, and if you said a Matoran word it might be recognizable to a Matoran, but it'd sound like a foreigner was saying it.

 

Another possibility for "x" that hasn't been brought up is "zh," pronounced like the "j" in "Taj Mahal." That way, there would be Krana-Za and a Krana-Zha. Of course, a consistent "ks" is probably more likely, like in Greek where names like "Xanthias" are pronounced somewhat like "Ksantheeahs," but it's still something to consider.

 

Also, I'd love to help out on the dictionary. I downloaded a search engine plugin a while ago that can find commonalities between words, but I need to populate it with words to search. Could that be of use?

 

Finally, a question on pronunciation: would there be accents in Matoran? For example, would a Matoran from Metru Nui sound markedly different from one on the Southern Continent? (If there is enough interest, I might actually make a separate topic for this question, but I want to see its answer-ability first.)


Edited by Infrared, Jun 13 2013 - 02:34 PM.

  • 0

#52 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,496 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Jun 13 2013 - 01:22 PM

I'm all for an etymological dictionary. The subject comes up a LOT, so it would be nice to have a definitive, exhaustive list to link people to. I would even link it from the useful story resources post in the S&T pinned One-Stop topic. :)


  • 0

#53 Offline Illuminatus

Illuminatus
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Outstanding BZP Citizens
  • Mask of Light Unveiled

  • 5,178 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Jun 13 2013 - 06:13 PM

(Some of this is rehashing, but it might add a new perspective so you can skip the first two paragraphs if you want but feel free to read them as well.)

 

I imagine that a lot of these pronunciation choices have been tailored for an English-speaking audiences, and don't necessarily represent how they would actually be pronounced in Matoran (they have been "half-translated," to use the term from before). I think a good example of this is the name "Orde." I don't know if Matoran has silent letters, but I think it's possible that in actuality it's either spelled "Ord" or it's pronounced "Orday."

 

To think of this (and the "x" pronunciation issue) in real-world terms, look for example at people who speak French as their first language and who learn English later. French has no "hard th" sound (or, if you want to be technical, voiced dental fricative), which is used very commonly in English since it appears in the word "the" and in a lot of pronouns ("this," "that," etc.). This means that they pronounce the hard th sound like a "z," giving rise to pronunciations such as "ze" and "zis" because it's a sound they're used to making. Another example is loanwords; when foreign words are assimilated into a language, the structure of the word remains similar if not the same but the accent and pronunciation rules of the new language change the pronunciation a bit. Matoran might be like this, too: pronunciations have been optimized for English and maybe other Germanic languages, and if you said a Matoran word it might be recognizable to a Matoran, but it'd sound like a foreigner was saying it.

 

Another possibility for "x" that hasn't been brought up is "zh," pronounced like the "j" in "Taj Mahal." That way, there would be Krana-Za and a Krana-Zha. Of course, a consistent "ks" is probably more likely, like in Greek where names like "Xanthias" are pronounced somewhat like "Ksantheeahs," but it's still something to consider.

 

Also, I'd love to help out on the dictionary. I downloaded a search engine plugin a while ago that can find commonalities between words, but I need to populate it with words to search. Could that be of use?

 

Finally, a question on pronunciation: would there be accents in Matoran? For example, would a Matoran from Metru Nui sound markedly different from one on the Southern Continent? (If there is enough interest, I might actually make a separate topic for this question, but I want to see its answer-ability first.)

 

I actually quite like your stance on Matoran words being "adapted" to suit an English-speaking audience. We could easily assume that way that some of the words we know may sound quite differently when pronounced by a Matoran. And the spelling could differ as well. As for the "zh" sound that you brought up (and this is a big deal for me, cause my real-name starts with that sound, hah), I had previously assumed that "J" was occasionally pronounced that way in BIONICLE (e.g. Amaja-Nui). As for Krana Xa, I've always pronounced it "Gza" myself.

 

I'm glad people are interested in the dictionary thing. I might recruit a bunch of you guys to help organize the initiative pretty soon! :)

 

Say, bonesiii, that "ch" sound that you mentioned? Were you referring to the "ck" sound or the more "haha" sound like in "Ahmed"? :D


  • 0

illuminati_bionicle_180.png


#54 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,496 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Jun 13 2013 - 08:21 PM

Look it up online for a pronunciation (as in Bach, or the word for "I", ich). That's the easiest way to know what it sounds like.

 

Definitely not the hard "k", though some pronounce it that way. I've heard Ahmed pronounced with both kh/ch and with a normal h, so not sure about that, but it's not just an h. It's a soft k, just as s is a soft version of t. Some people pronounce it "sh", but it's made farther back in the mouth than that.


  • 0

#55 Offline Exitium

Exitium
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 69 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 13 2013 - 08:43 PM

Quote

I should clarify that when I say burden of proof, what I mean is not actually "proof" (since that would be canon information, like you say), but whether I've found a theory sufficiently convincing.

Well, would you agree that the three possibilities are gave are the only options (at least I can't seem to think of any others offhand)? Which would you prefer and why, if any, out of curiosity? [Edit: I mean of how a Matoran gets their name, in case that wasn't clear.]

Those seem to be the only logical possibilities, and although there's no direct evidence in favor of any them, there's probably some mechanism to ensure that each name is unique.  (My reasoning here is that Matoran is a programming language, and in computer code it is essential that everything has a unique name.)  I personally prefer the idea that characters have some input into naming themselves, just because that's more interesting storywise, although if the GBs named the originals, that would better fit the programming paradigm.  


  • 0

Library

Memory (Memoirs of the Dead Entry)

Nowhere Current Status: Chapter 15

gallery_105736_136_2085.jpg


#56 Offline fishers64

fishers64
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Outstanding BZP Citizens
  • Gahlok-Kal Crushed

  • 4,640 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Jun 13 2013 - 09:37 PM

By an etymological dictionary, do you guys mean a list of real-world etymologies of Bionicle words, or Bionicle in-story etymologies? I'm pretty sure the latter's the stuff of theorizing and would be a real mess, and I know of some resources in other topics I can dig up for the former (but nothing exhaustive). :shrugs:  


  • 0

#57 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,496 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Jun 13 2013 - 09:59 PM

The former -- real-world.


  • 0

#58 Offline fishers64

fishers64
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Outstanding BZP Citizens
  • Gahlok-Kal Crushed

  • 4,640 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Jun 14 2013 - 10:35 AM

@ Etymological Dictionary: I recommend this, from this topic:

Even in 2003, I've been able to find elementally-affiliated meanings for 61 out of the 72 Matoran names included in the game, coming from languages as diverse as English, Hebrew, Japanese, and Slavic. If anyone is interested, I have a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet on my Brickshelf which includes all the meanings I have been able to uncover for 2001-2003 BIONICLE terms, from a mix of online and hard-copy resources. Of the various pages, the Matoran, Toa/Turaga, and Kanohi pages are mostly complete, while the Locations & Miscellaneous page is also fairly substantial but the Rahi & Plantlife page is severely lacking.

 Don't forget Finnish. Many names were taken from Finnish, even after 2003 (Olisi means "would be" and Vastus means "opponent", for example). I can make no sense of the file you uploaded. All the files just produce some kind of code. o_O EDIT: While we're sharing spreadsheets, here's one I made long ago about the names as well. Some Bionicle names have meanings in many languages. Some are just coincidence, though (like Puku meaning a suit in Finnish :P). Check it out, and if you have something to add, I'd be interested in adding to the spreadsheet.

Might save the dictionary makers a few minutes. 

 

Also, I thought my post above might have annoyed some people, so I apologize to any offended parties. I admit to being slightly annoyed that this has come up again, as I think it's an LD topic, not S&T (But that's entirely just me). Anyway...

 

Finally, a question on pronunciation: would there be accents in Matoran? For example, would a Matoran from Metru Nui sound markedly different from one on the Southern Continent? (If there is enough interest, I might actually make a separate topic for this question, but I want to see its answer-ability first.)

 

*does Greg search* *finds nothing* Um, I think there probably are different ways of speaking. After all, chutespeak developed among Le-Matoran, and that was one city. And while accents are more common when speakers of one language learn to speak another (as Surreality mentioned), we have seen regional variations even in the midst of languages (British Accent vs. American, Southern Accents, Canadian, etc) so it's possible to have regional dialects and different sounding Matoran in places. I think it would be more noticeable if a Matoran learned to speak Vortixx or something and had a "Matoran accent" though.  


  • 0

#59 Offline Illuminatus

Illuminatus
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Outstanding BZP Citizens
  • Mask of Light Unveiled

  • 5,178 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Jun 14 2013 - 11:27 AM

Look it up online for a pronunciation (as in Bach, or the word for "I", ich). That's the easiest way to know what it sounds like.
 
Definitely not the hard "k", though some pronounce it that way. I've heard Ahmed pronounced with both kh/ch and with a normal h, so not sure about that, but it's not just an h. It's a soft k, just as s is a soft version of t. Some people pronounce it "sh", but it's made farther back in the mouth than that.

 
Oh, I know what you're talking about, trust me. That sound is common in Bulgarian, and it just so happens to be depicted by the Cyrillic letter "X" (we say "xaxaxaxa" when we laugh). :)

@ Etymological Dictionary: I recommend this, from this topic:

Even in 2003, I've been able to find elementally-affiliated meanings for 61 out of the 72 Matoran names included in the game, coming from languages as diverse as English, Hebrew, Japanese, and Slavic. If anyone is interested, I have a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet on my Brickshelf which includes all the meanings I have been able to uncover for 2001-2003 BIONICLE terms, from a mix of online and hard-copy resources. Of the various pages, the Matoran, Toa/Turaga, and Kanohi pages are mostly complete, while the Locations & Miscellaneous page is also fairly substantial but the Rahi & Plantlife page is severely lacking.


Don't forget Finnish. Many names were taken from Finnish, even after 2003 (Olisi means "would be" and Vastus means "opponent", for example). I can make no sense of the file you uploaded. All the files just produce some kind of code. o_O EDIT: While we're sharing spreadsheets, here's one I made long ago about the names as well. Some Bionicle names have meanings in many languages. Some are just coincidence, though (like Puku meaning a suit in Finnish :P). Check it out, and if you have something to add, I'd be interested in adding to the spreadsheet.

 
Now, those are two real gems you have there. I'm actually glad someone acknowledged "Zemya" as a legitimate Bulgarian word. Though, I'm pretty sure it also exists in numerous other Slavic languages. Just like "Velika" means "great" (except it is the female variation of "Velik").

Edited by Surreality, Jan 12 2014 - 03:49 AM.

  • 0

illuminati_bionicle_180.png


#60 Offline Infrared

Infrared
  • Outstanding BZPower Citizens
  • Armored Protector

  • 322 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Jun 14 2013 - 12:49 PM

I've started a Google Doc that combines the previous spreadsheets into one (I've added/changed a few definitions as well, but most remain the same). You can edit it by following this link (you don't have to sign in), but I do have some requests:

 

- Add your display name when editing so we know who worked on it.

- If a word does not have an etymology, mark its cell red as I have done previously. That way it is easy to find entries that need work.

- Don't worry about alphabetizing the list, removing blank rows, etc. currently, just add new entries to the bottom and I'll format it later.

- Google Docs has a chat feature that, as far as I am aware, cannot be disabled. Please respect BZPower's policies and do not use it.

 

Thanks!


Edited by Infrared, Jun 14 2013 - 12:51 PM.

  • 0

#61 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 14 2013 - 08:52 PM

Say, bonesiii, that "ch" sound that you mentioned? Were you referring to the "ck" sound or the more "haha" sound like in "Ahmed"? :D

 

It's like that, but softer. 

 

Also, think about how these names must be pronounced in Denmark, where they were most likely conceived!  I'm sure they sound different there. 


Edited by darthme, Jun 14 2013 - 08:53 PM.

  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles

#62 Offline skratchR

skratchR
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 66 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 15 2013 - 06:50 PM

 

Like Gali, it could also mean "water" or something else related. After all, "mahri" means "ocean" and "garai" means "gravity" while "Ga-" and "Ba-" each mean "water" and "gravity," respectively.

I would think that just as there are multiple words used to refer to the same thing in our world, there would be in theirs also.

 

Actually, i believe that garai is the word for gravity, and ba- means 'of gravity'. Also, ga- would mean 'of water', etc.


  • 0

#63 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 16 2013 - 11:25 AM

 

 

Like Gali, it could also mean "water" or something else related. After all, "mahri" means "ocean" and "garai" means "gravity" while "Ga-" and "Ba-" each mean "water" and "gravity," respectively.

I would think that just as there are multiple words used to refer to the same thing in our world, there would be in theirs also.

 

Actually, i believe that garai is the word for gravity, and ba- means 'of gravity'. Also, ga- would mean 'of water', etc.

 

So maybe the Garai would be called such only in its Mahri version (as it is underwater), but would be called the Barai elsewhere?  That seems a little complicated. 


  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles

#64 Offline Infrared

Infrared
  • Outstanding BZPower Citizens
  • Armored Protector

  • 322 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Jun 17 2013 - 03:32 PM

Something interesting arose on BS01 that I thought might be useful: the inscription on the Mask of Light as it appeared in the movie novelization that, if canon (which it might not be), would shed some light on the Matoran language.

 

"Mapaku una-kanokee wehnua-hakeeta ah-keelahe hanoni rahun-ahk toa-nak panokeeta makuta-tahkee ohnah-koo."

 

Now, the Avohkii's inscription was written in an ancient dialect of Matoran, which calls into question how similar it is to the modern language (I imagine they could be as close as late Middle English is to modern English [more or less readable to an English speaker], but it could also be as far off as Old English is to modern English [vaguely similar, but takes more thought for an English speaker to understand]). As such, it shouldn't be taken as a definitive example of Matoran, but it does nonetheless have some noteworthy features:

 

- "Whenua" is spelled "wehnua" (assuming they are the same word), indicating that names can have definitions and that either a spelling shift took place over time or "Whenua" is semi-translated as discussed previously

- There is a heavy use of dashes, some of which connect new words to ones we already know, which could be a sign that more adjectives use dashes than the ones we have already seen

 

This is, of course, not necessarily canon, as I stated above, but it does show that at least some thought was put into what Matoran looked like on C.A. Hapka's part if nobody else's (if this is actually what Nokama says in the movie, it might indicate that it was not just Hapka's idea).


Edited by Infrared, Jun 17 2013 - 03:36 PM.

  • 0

#65 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 17 2013 - 04:19 PM

Something interesting arose on BS01 that I thought might be useful: the inscription on the Mask of Light as it appeared in the movie novelization that, if canon (which it might not be), would shed some light on the Matoran language.

 

"Mapaku una-kanokee wehnua-hakeeta ah-keelahe hanoni rahun-ahk toa-nak panokeeta makuta-tahkee ohnah-koo."

 

This is basically what I always imagined Matoran to look like.  Can we presume that it is a Verb-Subject-Object language like Hawaiian?


  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles

#66 Offline Master Inika

Master Inika
  • Members
  • Tahnok-Kal Overloaded

  • 4,441 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 17 2013 - 09:33 PM

In the movie, you just hear Nokama say few words in the background. I don't know if they're the same as the book. Btw, I'm the one who put it on BS01.
  • 0

makusdiary.png

 

99% of BZPower has grown out of this pointless fad. If you're part of the 1% willing

to cling to it out of an irrational pseudo-nostalgia, copy and paste this into your signature!


#67 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 18 2013 - 12:00 AM

I should note that if this is indeed ancient Matoran, then it would be a much more analytical and informationally-packed language.  Ancient Matoran was what the Great Beings used to program the Matoran and the Matoran Universe, and as such would have to be an information-heavy advanced language.  Natural languages simplify over time (take Latin with its many cases and declensions transforming into the modern day Romance languages, which are nowhere near as complex), so if that small excerpt is canon, it probably means a lot more than what it looks like at face value and is very different in structure from the modern Matoran language. 


  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles

#68 Offline Damaracx Caratas Xarian

Damaracx Caratas Xarian
  • Members
  • Emerging Defender of Mata Nui

  • 2,011 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 18 2013 - 04:25 AM

[color=#ff0000;]Zyglak also had a language.[/color]


  • 0

#69 Offline Illuminatus

Illuminatus
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Outstanding BZP Citizens
  • Mask of Light Unveiled

  • 5,178 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Jun 25 2013 - 05:20 PM

BTW, anybody have a clue as to how "Matoran" the word "protosteel" is?


  • 0

illuminati_bionicle_180.png


#70 Offline Infrared

Infrared
  • Outstanding BZPower Citizens
  • Armored Protector

  • 322 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Jun 25 2013 - 08:07 PM

BTW, anybody have a clue as to how "Matoran" the word "protosteel" is?

I would imagine that it would actually be "proto[matoran word for iron]." Probably something to the effect of "protofe[rest of word for Iron]" given that "Fe-" is its prefix.


  • 0

#71 Offline fishers64

fishers64
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Outstanding BZP Citizens
  • Gahlok-Kal Crushed

  • 4,640 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Jun 25 2013 - 09:16 PM

BTW, anybody have a clue as to how "Matoran" the word "protosteel" is?

I would imagine that it would actually be "proto[matoran word for iron]." Probably something to the effect of "protofe[rest of word for Iron]" given that "Fe-" is its prefix.
Wouldn't that easily be confused with actual iron? You would think there would be a difference between proto-iron and protosteel.

  • 0

#72 Offline VeoiTheRascal

VeoiTheRascal
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 84 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 25 2013 - 10:37 PM

 

 

BTW, anybody have a clue as to how "Matoran" the word "protosteel" is?

I would imagine that it would actually be "proto[matoran word for iron]." Probably something to the effect of "protofe[rest of word for Iron]" given that "Fe-" is its prefix.
Wouldn't that easily be confused with actual iron? You would think there would be a difference between proto-iron and protosteel.

 

 

On top of that, is Protosteel actually steel? Or is it a different type of metal altogether? 


  • 0
Posted Image

#73 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,496 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Jun 26 2013 - 05:22 AM

 

 

 

BTW, anybody have a clue as to how "Matoran" the word "protosteel" is?

I would imagine that it would actually be "proto[matoran word for iron]." Probably something to the effect of "protofe[rest of word for Iron]" given that "Fe-" is its prefix.
Wouldn't that easily be confused with actual iron? You would think there would be a difference between proto-iron and protosteel.

 

 

On top of that, is Protosteel actually steel? Or is it a different type of metal altogether? 

 

It's protodermis that mimics the physics of steel (somehow). So no, technically it's not actually steel, just like no protodermic material is actually the material of its namesake.

 

And proto-iron and protosteel are definitely two separate things. Iron is fairly strong but tends to rust while steel is much stronger (usually an alloy involving the nonmetal carbon) and does not rust (generally). So if there is the specific type of protometal called iron in the MU (which might not be confirmed, but I tend to assume so, especially because the idea is obviously known since it's used poetically for metal in general), that would be something different.

 

Also, it's questionable whether it would make sense to call it proto-[insert Bionicle word probably starting with fe] or the like. Protodermis is a "translated" word, or so I think, as is steel, but the elemental prefixes are actual Bionicle words. You could do it but since steel is English, it makes sense to simply use "iron" for the theoretical type in question here.


  • 0

#74 Offline alpha123

alpha123
  • Members
  • Descending into Protodermis

  • 1,040 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 26 2013 - 01:57 PM

 

Something interesting arose on BS01 that I thought might be useful: the inscription on the Mask of Light as it appeared in the movie novelization that, if canon (which it might not be), would shed some light on the Matoran language.

 

"Mapaku una-kanokee wehnua-hakeeta ah-keelahe hanoni rahun-ahk toa-nak panokeeta makuta-tahkee ohnah-koo."

 

This is basically what I always imagined Matoran to look like.  Can we presume that it is a Verb-Subject-Object language like Hawaiian?

 

I would say no on the basis of "Manas zya", given that zya is the verb there.

Also, that sentence is probably extremely archaic given that it doesn't contain the 'av' syllable, which I figured would probably feature on the back of the Mask of Light. I think the relationship between modern Matoran and ancient Matoran that requires a Rau to translate is probably similar to Old English (think Beowulf) vs modern English - there are some similarities especially regarding grammar but for the most part it sounds extremely foreign to modern speakers and the vocabularies are fairly distinct.

 

I think this guy is really on to something when it comes to the Matoran language. My personal theory is that because Matoran is a programming language, they are exchanging data structures with each other in some serialization format. This would mean the Matoran language that gets spoken and written down is a subset of the Matoran programming language, sort of like the relationship between JSON and JavaScript. Anyway, that means Matoran is probably very compact - I like Dual Matrix's approach since the syllables could represent bytes in the serialized format.


  • 0


If the Kanohi masks are a type of technology and most of the MU citizens are Biomechanical beings then how would a Kanohi mask recognize the difference between a Matoran and a Toa?

 

Muffin button


#75 Offline BioGio

BioGio
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Outstanding BZP Citizens
  • Submerged!

  • 1,192 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Jun 26 2013 - 02:36 PM

[font="georgia, serif;"][color=#000000;]Is Tolkien (the member) still around?  He has some great personal headcanon ideas on the Matoran language which he explained in his blog.  Plus, he's actually a linguist, so he's much more qualified to talk about this stuff than any of us are.[/color][/font]

 

So maybe the Garai would be called such only in its Mahri version (as it is underwater), but would be called the Barai elsewhere?  That seems a little complicated. 

 

[font="georgia, serif;"][color=#000000;]There are actually several possibilities here, none of which are very complicated.[/color][/font]

 

[font="georgia, serif;"][color=#000000;]The first is that the Southern Continent/Mahri Nui developed a slightly different variety of the Matoran language, sort of like the differences between Vulgar Latin on the Iberian Peninsula and the Vulgar Latin of Italy.  Perhaps the Ancient Matoran prefix for "gravity" was /ɡʷa/- (i.e., a labialized voiced velar stop followed by a low vowel), which could have developed into /ɡa/- in most regions and /ba/- in others.  This only makes sense if we allow Matoran to follow the basic principles of linguistic evolution, so this hypothesis is predicated on another important assumption.[/color][/font]

 

[font="georgia, serif;"][color=#000000;]The second is a suppletive root.  You know how one can either say "fatherly" or "paternal"?  One word is based on the English "father" + "-ly," while the other takes a Latin root:  "pater-".  It's possible that "Garai" isn't based on the root "Ga-" but on some other root "Gar-," which root may have the meaning of "Gravity."[/color][/font]

 

[font="georgia, serif;"][color=#000000;]The third is that "Garai" does not directly translate to "Gravity."  Perhaps it means "Pressure" or "Compacting" or anything along those lines.  Whether due to dialectical variation (i.e., Southern Continent Matoran prefer "Pressure" to "Gravity," just like some areas of the USA use "soda" rather than "pop") or simply a generic use of synonyms, this would just mean that "Garai" is just one word for "Gravity," and not the only one.[/color][/font]

 

[font="georgia, serif;"][color=#000000;]Just my two cents/attempt to provide alternative explanations which ought to be linguistically sound.[/color][/font]

 

[font="georgia, serif;"][color=#000000;]--BioGio[/color][/font]


  • 0

dig


"You're a scientist? The proposal you make violates parsimony; it introduces extra unknowns without proof for them. One might as well say unicorns power it."


#76 Offline Master Inika

Master Inika
  • Members
  • Tahnok-Kal Overloaded

  • 4,441 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 26 2013 - 04:44 PM

So, Gravity would also be known as Pressure? Like Lightning and Electricity?


  • 0

makusdiary.png

 

99% of BZPower has grown out of this pointless fad. If you're part of the 1% willing

to cling to it out of an irrational pseudo-nostalgia, copy and paste this into your signature!


#77 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 26 2013 - 05:01 PM

[font="georgia, serif;"][color=#000000;]Is Tolkien (the member) still around?  He has some great personal headcanon ideas on the Matoran language which he explained in his blog.  Plus, he's actually a linguist, so he's much more qualified to talk about this stuff than any of us are.[/color][/font]

 

[font="georgia, serif;"][color=#000000;]--BioGio[/color][/font]

 

Hey, I'm an aspiring linguist! :P (I want to study linguistics in college)

 

But I see what you are saying there.  It would make sense for there to be dialects of the Matoran language, especially because we see the Metru Nui Matoran using circles for writing their alphabet and the Voya Nui ones using hexagons. 

 

So, Gravity would also be known as Pressure? Like Lightning and Electricity?

 

Makes sense.  But lightning is just a specific form of electricity.  I would imagine that a Toa of Electricity would command Lightning as their elemental power (like, shooting bolts of lightning)


  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles

#78 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,496 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Jun 26 2013 - 09:50 PM

So, Gravity would also be known as Pressure? Like Lightning and Electricity?

I doubt "pressure" is exactly the right word (as that has to do with compression, usually of air), but I agree Garai vs. Ba is probably comparable to Lightning and Electricity -- both label the same thing but in different senses.

 

I've theorized before that the Garai should be more properly called the Mask of Weight.


  • 0

#79 Offline The Legendary TNT

The Legendary TNT
  • Members
  • Scavenger Va

  • 651 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 26 2013 - 10:01 PM

 

So, Gravity would also be known as Pressure? Like Lightning and Electricity?

I doubt "pressure" is exactly the right word (as that has to do with compression, usually of air), but I agree Garai vs. Ba is probably comparable to Lightning and Electricity -- both label the same thing but in different senses.

 

I've theorized before that the Garai should be more properly called the Mask of Weight.

 

So would "Garai" imply a connotation of "artificial" origin or control and "Ba-" imply a connotation of "natural" origin or control?


  • 0

new_sig_legacy.png


#80 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 26 2013 - 11:45 PM

 

 

So, Gravity would also be known as Pressure? Like Lightning and Electricity?

I doubt "pressure" is exactly the right word (as that has to do with compression, usually of air), but I agree Garai vs. Ba is probably comparable to Lightning and Electricity -- both label the same thing but in different senses.

 

I've theorized before that the Garai should be more properly called the Mask of Weight.

 

So would "Garai" imply a connotation of "artificial" origin or control and "Ba-" imply a connotation of "natural" origin or control?

 

 

Perhaps if the Matoran language distinguishes between those things.  And it might, too.  Many Native American languages make a distinction between Animate and Inanimate nouns. 


  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles




0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users