Toa Mangai of Ice - Kanohi Rode

[Boidoh]

Greg has a qualm with the poll (take that people who said Greg canonizes anything). He says that he thought that they had given the Rode limited users. 

 

So... erm... Does it? Last I checked, I heard nothing about it. Someone, pull up an obscure quote or something...

[Archon~]

Well I think that if he feels that it has limited users (and I feel like it should, along with the Mask of Charisma) then we should probably either re-do the poll, as it has been messy since it's inception, or pick the next one with most votes.

 

I personaly think it should be redone.

[Boidoh]

We had three tied options for 4th, remember. We can just do a tiebreaker for the Kadin and (I think it was) the Mask of Adaption.

[Archon~]

I mean yeah, but votes of several people that picked the Rode, Kakama, and several other masks are technically nulled since these masks were confirmed that they couldn't be used. So idk, I mean we could redo the tie-breaker too I guess that would be much simpler.

What are the other masks that these 4 Toa posses again?

[Boidoh]

Erm. I think Kaukau, Mask of Conjuring and... erm. I think Calix?

[maxim21]

It doesn't seem the Rode is a unique mask. The only quote I found in the old OGD is quite old (october 2006), but state it's not.

 

 

1.are the Rode, Krahkaan, and Olmak one of a kind?

1)No, probably, and no.

 

[Doctor Makuta]

So which Kanohi have been canonised for the Toa Mangai so far?

[maxim21]

So which Kanohi have been canonised for the Toa Mangai so far?

I think the only one Greg approved so far was the Mask of Healing for the Toa of the Green.

Edited January 11, 2015 by maxim21

[IcarusBen]

Greg should've told us that the Rode was off-limits earlier. That's just rude of him to tell us after we voted it in. 

 

YES. I QUESTIONED THE IMMORTAL GREG. OFF WITH MY HEAD.

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

I say redo it. Open a planning thread first, make sure everything is accounted for, and then start it over again. Really, we're in no hurry, let's take the time to do this right.

[Takhamavahu]

I remember the Mask of Dimensional Gates being ver limited, but I don't remember him ever saying so about the mask of Truth.

 

I'm inclined to trust his judgment, but at the same time, that's too bad; I really liked MOCing toa with that mask. It looks good and it's a useful, but not overpowered ability.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Takhamavahu

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

I take it that masks belonging to the Order of Mata Nui members are pretty rare then? (aside from Umbra's Ruru, but that's just for show anyway).

 

We know there is only two Olmak's in the universe (now none, unless you count Vezon's face since the only remaining one is merged to it) - since Axonn is Brutaka's partner, it would make sense for his Mask to be very limited in supply as well.

 

-NotS

[bonesiii]

I'm fine with a tiebreaker poll being started based on this.

 

Icarus, not sure if you were serious, but it would be unreasonable to expect Greg to remember all masks that are off-limits off the top of his head. That isn't rude, just an understandable oversight.

[Ektris]

Ah-ha! So it wasn't just my preference to keep it special and limited. Greg felt as much as well, and even thought he had said so before. Note that "limited number of users" is not the same as "one-of-a-kind," so while we've found a case of him saying it's not the latter, he still could have said it was the former at one point or another.

 

Go for anything that casts the Rode out and I'd support it. So another tiebreaker with the fourth places or whatever is left from the other tiebreaker would sit best with me.

 

~|ET|~

Edited January 12, 2015 by Ektris

[IcarusBen]

I'm fine with a tiebreaker poll being started based on this.

 

Icarus, not sure if you were serious, but it would be unreasonable to expect Greg to remember all masks that are off-limits off the top of his head. That isn't rude, just an understandable oversight.

 

I know, it's just that (and this applies to every writer) if you say "Okay, fanbase, vote on something and give me something for canon." but then once the results are in you say "Sorry, I don't agree, try again" is just frustrating to me. You give them a poll, but only tell them they can't vote for one thing after they've voted for it. 

 

It's one of the many things that results in my lower-than-average bone density in my forehead and my higher-than-usual total amount spent on repairing my desk.

[bonesiii]

I know, it's just that (and this applies to every writer) if you say "Okay, fanbase, vote on something and give me something for canon." but then once the results are in you say "Sorry, I don't agree, try again" is just frustrating to me.

This is why I've kept reminding people that asking for fan input does not have to be "you guys decide it". That goes two ways -- it means treating a poll-winning option as a shoe-in isn't warranted, as the author can and should reserve the right to consider issues with the winner, and ultimately go with whatever seems best, even if it isn't what was chosen. It also doesn't mean he's just outsourcing the work to us. Input is just that, input.

 

I get what you're saying, but my point is, you can avoid that frustration if you always keep such polls in context as asking for fan input, and the poll format simply helps make the more common answers easier to weigh mathematically. Don't confuse them for votes in the sense of a contest or an election in which there is a "contract" with voters that the majority winner is in. Even though it's in a similar format to those things, it's still just asking for input and advice. It's up to the author to decide whether the advice is to be incorporated as suggested, modified and incorporated, or not incorporated at all.

 

Or shorter answer: Remember to see these polls as more preliminary in the process of fan-collaborative improving of canon, rather than the "final answers." They're useful tools, and it wouldn't be wise to not use them for their helpful qualities just because not every issue is always caught before they start.

[JMSOG]

Simple solution for now, if the solution ends up being new poll: bring the list of the masks that would be included in the poll to greg. He can eliminate whatever masks he needs/wants before we even start.

 

We have an infinite amount of time to do this, i don't see why a new poll would hurt.

[Prowl Nightwolf]

I know I don't have a dog in this fight as I have absolutely no idea what you guys are talking about. Still a few key words caught my interest so thought I'd ask. What is this about a mask that Greg said cannot be used or something? Are we talking fan made or something for the official story? Because if it is the prior based on someone saying MOC, why would Greg care? I know this site is the biggest fansite regarding Bionicle but is it "the" site? Like lego and Greg himself actually comes here or cares what is said.

[IcarusBen]

BZP, to my knowledge, is officially sponsored by The Lego Group (though it's not an official LEGO site). This means that they (to my knowledge) get free sets to review but also Greg has decided to outsource canon to us. We give him stuff to put in, he puts it in, we rejoice.

 

Or, if the other extreme is to be believed, we start protesting. Whatever floats your boat, really.

[fishers64]

BZP, to my knowledge, is officially sponsored by The Lego Group (though it's not an official LEGO site). This means that they (to my knowledge) get free sets to review but also Greg has decided to outsource canon to us. We give him stuff to put in, he puts it in, we rejoice.

 

Or, if the other extreme is to be believed, we start protesting. Whatever floats your boat, really.

No, to my knowledge this website is privately owned by three devoted Bionicle fans. The free sets, etc, are virtue of this place's good connections to the Lego Group, not because TLG gives this place money. 

[Prowl Nightwolf]

BZP, to my knowledge, is officially sponsored by The Lego Group (though it's not an official LEGO site). This means that they (to my knowledge) get free sets to review but also Greg has decided to outsource canon to us. We give him stuff to put in, he puts it in, we rejoice.

 

Or, if the other extreme is to be believed, we start protesting. Whatever floats your boat, really.

 

 

 

BZP, to my knowledge, is officially sponsored by The Lego Group (though it's not an official LEGO site). This means that they (to my knowledge) get free sets to review but also Greg has decided to outsource canon to us. We give him stuff to put in, he puts it in, we rejoice.

 

Or, if the other extreme is to be believed, we start protesting. Whatever floats your boat, really.

No, to my knowledge this website is privately owned by three devoted Bionicle fans. The free sets, etc, are virtue of this place's good connections to the Lego Group, not because TLG gives this place money.

 

So if I am to believe what you are saying that means that this site is like knowing the president's personal tactics advisor? Greg the very story creator himself gets some of his ideas from this very site upon request? Even if he doesn't always like what he reads? Now I think that is really cool.

 

So something is going on with the Toa of Ice and a mask Greg said was a no-go due to some form of exclusivity? That I guess I can understand. I mean it really is his baby after all. We are just babysitters in a sense. 

[fishers64]

So if I am to believe what you are saying that means that this site is like knowing the president's personal tactics advisor? Greg the very story creator himself gets some of his ideas from this very site upon request? Even if he doesn't always like what he reads? Now I think that is really cool.

 

So something is going on with the Toa of Ice and a mask Greg said was a no-go due to some form of exclusivity? That I guess I can understand. I mean it really is his baby after all. We are just babysitters in a sense. 

Something like that - although it's more like we throw ideas at him because he allows us to. We want to give him the ideas, and he can choose to accept or deny them as he sees fit. 

[IcarusBen]

 

BZP, to my knowledge, is officially sponsored by The Lego Group (though it's not an official LEGO site). This means that they (to my knowledge) get free sets to review but also Greg has decided to outsource canon to us. We give him stuff to put in, he puts it in, we rejoice.

 

Or, if the other extreme is to be believed, we start protesting. Whatever floats your boat, really.

No, to my knowledge this website is privately owned by three devoted Bionicle fans. The free sets, etc, are virtue of this place's good connections to the Lego Group, not because TLG gives this place money. 

 

 

That's what I mean by "sponsored." I never said TLG gives us money.

[fishers64]

 

 

BZP, to my knowledge, is officially sponsored by The Lego Group (though it's not an official LEGO site). This means that they (to my knowledge) get free sets to review but also Greg has decided to outsource canon to us. We give him stuff to put in, he puts it in, we rejoice.

 

Or, if the other extreme is to be believed, we start protesting. Whatever floats your boat, really.

No, to my knowledge this website is privately owned by three devoted Bionicle fans. The free sets, etc, are virtue of this place's good connections to the Lego Group, not because TLG gives this place money. 

 

 

That's what I mean by "sponsored." I never said TLG gives us money.

 

Erm, that's what sponsored typically means, though. It's more like a partnership, instead of a sponsorship. 

 

Back on topic, sorry to hear that it was struck down. What I'm confused as is why "limited users" would automatically exclude this Toa. Axxonn is one guy, this one makes two. That's still more rare than, say, a Hau. 

Edited January 12, 2015 by fishers64

[bonesiii]

I think Greg's seeing the Toa Mangai as basically a somewhat average team, important more for the mission they took and the location that made them end up staying at. Even if elite Toa can occasionally have that, it might fit a Toa Hagah better than a Toa of Metru Nui.

Edited January 13, 2015 by bonesiii

[fishers64]

I think Greg's seeing the Toa Mangai as basically a somewhat average team, important more for the mission they took and the location that made them end up staying at. Even if elite Toa can occasionally have that, it might fit a Toa Mangai better than a Toa of Metru Nui.

I'm confused. We're talking about the Toa Mangai. 

[bonesiii]

Lol, meant Toa Hagah. Fix'd.

 

It was Hagah in my head.

[Grungemeister]

I think Greg's seeing the Toa Mangai as basically a somewhat average team, important more for the mission they took and the location that made them end up staying at. Even if elite Toa can occasionally have that, it might fit a Toa Hagah better than a Toa of Metru Nui.

A little unrelated, but this has always kinda been a headcanon and made sense to me. Toa Hagah would defiantly have more powerful/useful masks versus normal Toa, like the Kualsi and Pehkui.

[hawkeye90]

We've only seen one in story before, I don't see how this would hurt the rarity of it. Also I was under the impression that the Toa Mangai were not a team, but simply answered a call for help in regards to the Kanohi Dragon, not really forming a team till then. If that is indeed the case (and even if it isn't, seeing I doubt they were a team right from becoming Toa, like the Toa Metru were), there is no telling what that Toa of ice could have done to have got/earnd that mask. The Olmak there were only two of, Brutaka had one (what did he do to get his I wonder) the only other one belonged to... a Toa! And that mask is a lot rearer and (IMO) more powerful than the Rode is, all I'm saying is that if a Toa can have an Olmak than why not a Rode? Also first post says Greg said limited, a mask being limited does not automatically translates to or means "this character can not have that mask". Why not ask if he has reason not to allow this Toa to be one of those few who has one?

[bonesiii]

We've only seen one in story before, I don't see how this would hurt the rarity of it.

Two ways it could. First, what I said above -- if the Mangai are an "average" team (more or less), and this mask is simply off-limits to Toa of that "rank", giving it to one of them would imply it's much more common.

 

Second, the number of characters seen in-story is a tiny percentage of the number of characters in the MU. A rare mask showing up just once among them fits it being rare... twice? Not so much. Because theoretically (although statistics predicts "bunching" sometimes), a normal scientific sample should roughly approximate the percentage of the population as a whole. There are other masks that are seen as common that haven't even been re-used, at least not their powered versions, so to have two Rode and call them rare becomes much less likely. Not absolute disproof of it due to the statistics rule but it would create a confusing perception to fans.

 

Also I was under the impression that the Toa Mangai were not a team, but simply answered a call for help in regards to the Kanohi Dragon, not really forming a team till then.

That's right.

 

The Olmak there were only two of, Brutaka had one (what did he do to get his I wonder) the only other one belonged to... a Toa!

If you think about it, this argues against doing the same thing with the Rode. Statistical bunching once is fairly likely. Twice, with the masks on the faces of the VN titans, is much less likely. (Though I assume the Rode would be a little more common than the Olmak.)

 

Also, when something is so rare as to have only one, two, or maybe three examples, its value goes up (like the principle behind gold and diamonds being seen as precious beyond their physical traits' advantages), and we start to want to know who has each one, because each of their story importance goes up by virtue of owning such a precious thing. If the Rode is rare, but not "precious", that wouldn't necessarily work. The power itself might also be seen as less valuable to start with, though I'm not sure what to make of that (Olmak is a pretty strong "trump card" power, though, and the main Great Mask that people often suggest should have been Legendary; I don't recall anybody saying that for Rode).

 

all I'm saying is that if a Toa can have an Olmak than why not a Rode?

They can, but making that Toa be one of the Mangai would seriously hurt the perception that Toa who have it are very rare.

 

Keep in mind a few things about that Olmak Toa too. First, Artakha gave it to him specifically to get Jovan's team to Karda Nui to save the Great Spirit. It was hardly normal circumstances. Second, even if we ignore that part, a Makuta arranged to have him killed, apparently because of the mask, to steal it (although the Order somehow got it for a while, but it did end up in the Brotherhood's hands, apparently tied into some device to teleport Destral around). Maybe lots of Toa learned from that lesson and stopped wearing rarer masks, yanno? (This event was well before the forming of the Toa Mangai, so the timing would make sense there.)

Edited January 13, 2015 by bonesiii

[JMSOG]

Wondering how likely it is we'd see another wearer of a rode i see? I'm taking AP Statistics right now. Let's have some fun.

I'm going to make a lot of assumptions that will make my final outcome inacurate and likely larger than the actual answer, but let's try it out. It will give us a ballpark answer.

Sources: my memory and BS01

ASSUMPTIONS:
-Mata Nui has 1000 matoran (cannot find source, remember reading this)
-All Metru Nui matoran made it to Mata Nui
-No matoran transformed into toa on Metru Nui besides the ones we know about
-We know of every kanohi-wearing species
-Toa teams of unknown number had 6 members
-No two Toa Hagah were from the same original team
-Matoran are the most prevelent species in the MU, and and the average population size of the other kanohi wearing species is half the size of the matoran population.
-As greg said, The Rode is rare, let's call it 100 wearers total.
-Every toa that has existed is known to us (I know that is wrong)

Okay. So, out of the roughly 1000 Metru Nui inhabitants, we know that 13 became toa (the metru, the inika, and Takua). Assuming this is representitive of the matoran population as a whole;

(# of matoran turned into toa)/(# of matoran)= Chance of matoran becoming toa = 13/1000 = 1.3% chance

This means roughly 1.3% of the matoran population is represented any toa that has ever existed. Of the toa that transformed naturally, we know of:
-7 toa hagah teams (7x6=42 toa)
-Each original hagah's team (42x5=210 toa)
-the inika (6 toa)
-the metru (6 toa)
-the cordak (8 toa)
-the mangai (11 toa)
-Jovan's team (call it 8)
-Makoki stone guard team (4 toa, not including Lhikan)
-Lhikan's army (300 toa)
-Dume's team (6 toa)
-Orde's team (minus orde) (5 toa)
-Savage's team (6 toa)
-Spinner's team (6 toa)
-Zaria's team (6 toa)
-Chiara (1 toa)
-Krakua (1 toa)
-A team that inprisoned the KD first (6 toa)
-Toa that Chirox experimented on (call it 10 toa)
-Xia defense squad team (6 toa)
-team that fought the dark hunter Poison (6 toa)
-Team from Northern Continent (6 toa)
-Prototype (2 toa)
-14 other toa who are still alive (14 toa)

This comes out to: 42+210+6+6+8+11+8+4+300+6+5+6+6+6+1+1+6+10+6+6+6+2+14=677 toa

since 677 is 1.3% of the matoran population:

100/1.3=76.92307692

76.92307692x677=52077

there are 52,077 matoran ever in existance.

There are other species/individual wearers that naturally wear kanohi as well:

-Brutaka's species (52077x.5=26039 members)
-Axonn's species (26039 members)
-the makuta (call it 50 members)
-Tobduk's species (26039 members)
-Trinuma's species (26039 members)
-Toa Mata (6 members)
-Helryx (1 members)
-Orde (1 members)
-Artahka (1 member)
-Karzahni (1 member)

26039+26039+50+26039+26039+6+1+1+1+1=104,216

Add that number to the number of matoran:

104,216+52077=156293

There are 156,293 natural kanohi wearers in the matoran universe

of these 156,293 individuals, we specifically know the kanohi of:
-Toa Mata (6)
-Toa Metru (6)
-Toa Inika (6)
-Toa Hagah (6)
-10 Mahri/Voya Nui matoran (10)
-10 makuta (10)
-7 av matoran (including Takua) (7)
-73 Metru/Mata nui matoran (73)
-minimum 11 matoran from various comic art (11)
-Vican (1)
-Vultraz (1)
-Mazeka (1)
-Dume (1)
-Jovan (1)
-Lhikan (1)
-A Toa Mangai of the Green (1)
-A Toa Mangai who wore a kakama (1)
-Tuyet (1)
-Varien (1)
-Lesovikk (1)
-Nikila (1)
-Helryx (1)
-Chiara (1)
-Axonn (1)
-Brutaka (1)
-Tobduk (1)
-Trinuma (1)
-Karzahni (1)
-Artahka (1)

(forgive me if i am missing any) Total number of people with their kanohi known is:

6+6+6+6+10+10+7+73+11+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1=145

we know the mask of 145 characters.

We know that of those wearers, 1 wears a rode. What is being proposed and argued is whether to make that number 146 with 2 wearers.

So, here we go: with 100 Rode wearers in this 156,293 member universe, (100/156293=).06398239205% wear a rode. in the proposed sample of characters we know, plus Mr. Rode-Ice-Toa, (2/146=)1.36986301% would wear a rode.

prepare for math: If we were to take a ton of samples of size 146 from the 156,293 population, the average of the percentages of all the rode wearers will equal .06398239205%. What we are proposing will equal 1.36986301%.

So what, right? it's not that far off. What chance is there that a sample would equal 1.36986301%?

Mean = .0006398239205
Standard deviation = sqrt[ .0006398239205 * ( 1 - .0006398239205 ) / 146 ] = .000004379551684

(.0136986301-.0006398239205)/.000004379551684=2981.767798

the probability of 2 rode users appearing to us is 2981.767798 standard deviations from the mean. That appears to be such a small chance of happening that my calculator cannot even handle a number that small. To give you an idea, 3 standard deviations means a less than .3% chance of that value happening.

Feel free to pick apart any of the above calculations, i'm sure there's a mistake somewhere. However, even if I made a major one, I think it is evident that a rode user is unlikely to be something we see again.

Wow, I spent three hours on this...

 

 

 

 

 

TOO LONG/DIDN'T READ VERSION:

If the rode is a very rare mask as greg says, then the liklyhood of us seeing another wearer is INCREDIBLY small. There is a CHANCE, but so small that it doesn't matter. If greg says rare, then the Toa Mangai does not wear a rode, and we have to accept his decision.

Edited January 13, 2015 by JMSOG

[Prowl Nightwolf]

wow, I like math... Still I am not going to pick apart your calculations. Though I am going to ask. Now that you have a possible value and probability of seeing more than one Rode wearer, what does that mean for this topic? Are you saying that due to your calculations there is the reason there Greg does not want us to have another Rode wearer? Or is it more along the lines of saying that even if we do have another official wearer your calculations show it still keeps it's rarity?

 

 

EDIT: wow, I read your whole post yet somehow skipped the last part where you basically answered my question before I even asked it... lol.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Prowl Nightwolf

[JMSOG]

Greg discounted the rode on the grounds that it would be rare. There is the argument, which i saw, of "it's still possible", so I decided to mathmatically prove that, even though it technically is possible, we should still accept greg saying "no" on the Rode.

 

I have no stake in this, I was just bored XD

 

EDIT: so in response to your question, the first option

Edited January 14, 2015 by JMSOG

[bonesiii]

ASSUMPTIONS:

-Mata Nui has 1000 matoran (cannot find source, remember reading this)

FTR, that's right. Source was Greg.

 

-the makuta (call it 50 members)

It was 100.

 

Some of the other species probably were less than 1000 as they were probably limited to one island or whonot, like Tobduk's, but I wouldn't worry about that as the larger number can counter the likely inaccurate assumption earlier that we know all mask-wearing species. Math is probably fairly close in the totals as a result.

 

Your math lost me in places later, but that's because you're taking a class on that subject so unsurprising, heh.

[Prowl Nightwolf]

I've been board from time to time and do random stuff myself. Have at it. I have no stake in this either, just here to try and make sense of it and feel like part of the conversation.

[Takhamavahu]

If Greg is very sure that he previously said Rode was a special and rare mask, or is firm in deciding so now, then fine,

But if he isn't sure (I sure don't remember him ever saying so; I think he is thinking of Olmak) then I'd really rather it not be made so now because Rode is not overpowered and it' awesome for MOCing with, so it would be a shame to lose that potential.

 

If Greg decides once and for all the Rode is a rare mask, that still doesn't mean a Toa can't have it. It just means that one of the Toa of ice in an interesting character now. It opens up possibilities for storytelling now that one of the seven unnamed Toa Mangai has an interesting identifying charachteristic.

 

Why would you want to avoid that? Why would you want to enforc boringness on a character when you know nothing else at all about him?

[fishers64]

We know that of those wearers, 1 wears a rode. What is being proposed and argued is whether to make that number 146 with 2 wearers.

 

So, here we go: with 100 Rode wearers in this 156,293 member universe, (100/156293=).06398239205% wear a rode. in the proposed sample of characters we know, plus Mr. Rode-Ice-Toa, (2/146=)1.36986301% would wear a rode.

 

prepare for math: If we were to take a ton of samples of size 146 from the 156,293 population, the average of the percentages of all the rode wearers will equal .06398239205%. What we are proposing will equal 1.36986301%.

 

So what, right? it's not that far off. What chance is there that a sample would equal 1.36986301%?

 

Mean = .0006398239205

Standard deviation = sqrt[ .0006398239205 * ( 1 - .0006398239205 ) / 146 ] = .000004379551684

 

(.0136986301-.0006398239205)/.000004379551684=2981.767798

 

the probability of 2 rode users appearing to us is 2981.767798 standard deviations from the mean. That appears to be such a small chance of happening that my calculator cannot even handle a number that small. To give you an idea, 3 standard deviations means a less than .3% chance of that value happening.

 

Feel free to pick apart any of the above calculations, i'm sure there's a mistake somewhere. However, even if I made a major one, I think it is evident that a rode user is unlikely to be something we see again.

 

Wow, I spent three hours on this...

Why assume 100 Rode wearers and divide 100 by 156,293?

[Prowl Nightwolf]

I think that particular value was his own choice to emphasis that even if there were 100 wearers of the mask it was still unlikely we'd see even a second. making it still an extremely rare mask. He could of picked any number for that. though the lower the number the even more unlikely to see a second.

 

I have a question though. The Rode is the mask of truth yes? So along with trying to figure out why Greg does not think/want a canonical second wearer has anyone asked the question why this Toa of Ice should have it in the first place? I mean other than it being a good power and I can see the ramifications of always seeing through any deception could become overpowered. Why should this Toa have it at all? Why not one of the other Toa? Why should a Toa have it at all?