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Is the original BIONICLE story as good as we think?

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Hello there!

 

I'm new to the BIONICLE community and was wanting to start a discussion on the story of the original BIONICLE.

 

So, first off, i wanted to address a view things: 1) While this topic title may seem like a hate on the original line, when in fact it is not. I really like the original, you'll soon find out the truth. 2) If, WHEN, i offend someone, please be mature and not act on rage but instead be civil thank you.

 

Alright, lets begin:

 

Have you ever wondered why the original BIONICLE storyline seemed a bit odd a times? Or, have you wondered why the somethings became different as BIONICLE continued as the line progressed? Well, your not alone.

 

As I have dug deep in the wikis and the numerous youtube accounts and videos dedicate to BIONICLE, I have amassed an opinion on the line and wanted to create blogs and other sources around my opinion on the line and address my thoughts on it.

 

The first point of topic is on the first thing BIONICLE told us: The story of Mata Nui: The rocks.

 

So what I mean is when you play MNOG you can see the story of Mata Nui and Makuta with rocks. From this, we learn of Mata Nui and his brother Makuta, or is it that? As BIONICLE  progressed, they didn't maintain this idea of the two being brothers. Makuta: The name became a race of beings, and he himself is Teridax. 

 

My first opinion is here:

 

Q: Why change it?

 

This change would be one of the worst changes. From the beginning, Makuta has been the brother of Mata Nui for years until one thing changed it all, 2008. Here he was named Teridax and the name Makuta became a race. But here is the major thing: It didn't need to be changed. There was no point in doing so. I really liked the idea of these two brothers descending from the heavens to guide and help the Matoran have a purpose. However, Makuta felt unloved by his own deeds and became forgotten and feared, so he devised a plan out of jealousy and a need for be loved and want to receive these things. It paints the Makuta as a tragic hero in this story and all of that is gone in the following years after 2003.

 

My second topic: The Great Beings

 

Q: Why do they exist?

 

This is where things became, unneeded or to be of existence. I felt like the fans asked to many questions or the creators had to big of a since of lore. The great beings are a terrible addition to the lore. I would have been fine if they didn't include them, after all, Mata Nui could have been the creator of the all the races. My following thoughts on this will be included in the next topic.

 

My Third Topic: The Great Spirit Robot

 

Q: Why does he take this form?

 

This is my least favorite part of BIONICLE, and the worst thing ever. Why does the entire universe exist inside a giant robot?! You see, in the first three years of BIONICLE, we had a very tribal and mystical vibe from BIONICLE. It was AMAZING! It was so unique and brilliant. I love how they combined the environment with the lore and the characters. It was so unique. It also works for the story: Elemental wielding characters that live in this environment that fits their element. However, as BIONICLE continued, this concept is destroyed. 2004 began the downfall of BIONICLE, but some years would mainain a good tribal vibe: 2006 and 2007. But 2008 was the death of BIONICLE. It destroyed all that we learned about BIONICLE. IT created a sense of artificialness. Heres what I mean: Robot-like beings living in a organic environment: 2001 - 2003, and 2006-2007. Robot-like beings that live in a robotic environment the entire story. It also destroys the concept of the Mata Nui being a great spirit.

 

Heres what the whole topic is about.

 

The entire story of BIONICLE is one big

 

RETCON

 

If BIONICLE was meant to be what was revealed in 2008, then why trick and lie to the fans from 2001-2010? You have us believe one thing, then completely shift it another way. Characters we once believed to be bigger then life are downgraded to nothing but insects. The world we knew and loved became artificial. The mystical story we loved became a lie. You see, thats why i hate theses changes, they destroyed and made everything a lie. But it was all a retcon. Changes made to make the story to appeal to the Great Spirit reveal.

 

So, in more opinion, the original story is trash

 

But not the concepts.

 

This is why i will be writing a story called: BIONICLE: The Spiritual Story

 

This writing holds on to the concepts that we were told in 2001 and maintains those concepts. I will be rewriting a lot of the story as well in order to maintain the concepts.

 

So, how to you feel about my opinion? Tell me your thoughts.

 

Sorry if I have offended anyone, but i have been wanting to talk about this opinion of mine for awhile.

 

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While this topic title may seem like a hate on the original line, when in fact it is not.

So, in more opinion, the original story is trash

:P

 

Anyways, I think some of the stuff you mentioned is what makes Bionicle awesome. We could never have seen Mata Nui, or it could have been some cheesy "Mata Nui is inside you" business, but instead he's a giant robot with an island for a face. That's pretty hardcore. The twists and turns and different vibes of the different generations of the story make it interesting. You say 2004 broke the mold in a bad way, I think it's for the better. We saw the same dudes for three years, and then we saw what it was all like a thousand years ago, on a different island no less.

 

Bionicle was great because it never just gave you what you expected. It had a formula but there were always a few ingredients that could be substituted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Except for the name-drop for Teridax, that was a bad idea. :P

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Regarding the point about Mata Nui and Teridax being brothers:
You see, just because they were established as brothers doesn't mean they were. You learned the story through the eyes of a Matoran. Because of their limited understanding of how their world worked, the Matoran developed stories and myths to explain what cannot be explained, similar to our world's religions. As the story goes on, you learn more and more about the true nature of their universe, until the curtain of myth is pulled back to reveal the factual truth behind it all. The reveal of Teridax's true nature was all part of the storytelling process, not a deterioration of the original concepts.

Edited by Irrie: The Loremaster
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bZpOwEr

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I think you're misguided on some of these. I'll grant that the Great Beings were not necessary given that we never got that far in the story.

 

For Makuta and Mata Nui being actual brothers, well, there were no "actual" brothers in Bionicle. But these two were brothers, if not in name. They became equals and duked it out in the finale.

 

From my perspective, I still think the story is pretty good. As much as it was awkwardly steered by the sale of new toys, it did a great job. There were some good character moments... Although that wasn't the appeal for me. The world building, is what did it for me.

 

Also, I LOATHE Giant Robot.

Not Mata Nui being a really big guy. The phrase GIANT ROBOT. Robot means servant droid. The MU was a shell with a conscience. He was just as real as the people inside him, for whom the word "robot" seems ridiculous. They couldn't have thought of a better general term for "the robot"?

Edited by Zestanor
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Since I belong to that admittedly small category of people who actually think Bionicle had the best story out of any stories out there (if only due to the established culture and lore rather than the actual story arcs), I feel I should address some of your points.

 

 

If, WHEN, i offend someone, please be mature and not act on rage but instead be civil thank you.

 

I'll do my best.

 

 

From the beginning, Makuta has been the brother of Mata Nui for years until one thing changed it all, 2008. Here he was named Teridax and the name Makuta became a race. But here is the major thing: It didn't need to be changed. There was no point in doing so. I really liked the idea of these two brothers descending from the heavens to guide and help the Matoran have a purpose. However, Makuta felt unloved by his own deeds and became forgotten and feared, so he devised a plan out of jealousy and a need for be loved and want to receive these things. It paints the Makuta as a tragic hero in this story and all of that is gone in the following years after 2003.

 

I originally had a hard time accepting Makuta as a species too, and I still think it could've been handled better. But I do think that expanding on Teridax was necessary, and the way he turned out was actually more interesting to me, since it gave him more character depth and a history of his own. Also, he still has the same motivations as his earlier form. He was jealous to Mata Nui, even though he wasn't his brother, and his ultimate goal to become the Great Spirit was brilliant, since he actually got exactly what he wanted from him. He was jealous towards what Mata Nui had, and he succeeded in getting all of it.

 

Well, save for the allegiance of the Matoran, of course.

 

 

The great beings are a terrible addition to the lore. I would have been fine if they didn't include them, after all, Mata Nui could have been the creator of the all the races.

 

Someone had to create the gigantic body of Mata Nui, didn't they? If not, we would all be wondering how a giant robot could have come into being in the first place. Though I agree that especially in the later years, the idea of the Great Beings was taken way too far, and in an inconsistent manner.

 

 

This is my least favorite part of BIONICLE, and the worst thing ever. Why does the entire universe exist inside a giant robot?! You see, in the first three years of BIONICLE, we had a very tribal and mystical vibe from BIONICLE. It was AMAZING! It was so unique and brilliant. I love how they combined the environment with the lore and the characters. It was so unique. It also works for the story: Elemental wielding characters that live in this environment that fits their element. However, as BIONICLE continued, this concept is destroyed. 2004 began the downfall of BIONICLE, but some years would mainain a good tribal vibe: 2006 and 2007. But 2008 was the death of BIONICLE. It destroyed all that we learned about BIONICLE. IT created a sense of artificialness. Heres what I mean: Robot-like beings living in a organic environment: 2001 - 2003, and 2006-2007. Robot-like beings that live in a robotic environment the entire story. It also destroys the concept of the Mata Nui being a great spirit.

 

It's understandable that this divides opinions, since it came as a surprise to all of us when it was revealed. However, the story team knew all along, and it's essentially the core concept of Bionicle. Without this red thread, Bionicle wouldn't be... well... Bionicle. I was originally disappointed with the concept, but when I began finding out more about all the planning and work that had gone into creating this, I realized how essential it was to the overall story, and how well it connected all the dots. That was the factor that made me regard Bionicle as the best story I have ever had the pleasure to experience, as over-the-top as it may sound. It wasn't just the reveal, it was also how well it had been foreshadowed in previous years, all the while keeping it a secret. It's also quite an original and fascinating concept, which I truly appreciate.

 

Though, as Zestanor already pointed out, they could've called it something other than "giant robot". That term is just way too blunt and really doesn't capture the awe and wonder of Mata Nui's form.

 

 

The entire story of BIONICLE is one big

 

RETCON

 

This is simply untrue. The only things ever retconned in Bionicle were minor details established by Greg Farshtey, and in those cases he was also the one to retcon them. The main story elements stayed consistent until the end.

 

 

If BIONICLE was meant to be what was revealed in 2008, then why trick and lie to the fans from 2001-2010? You have us believe one thing, then completely shift it another way. Characters we once believed to be bigger then life are downgraded to nothing but insects. The world we knew and loved became artificial. The mystical story we loved became a lie. You see, thats why i hate theses changes, they destroyed and made everything a lie. But it was all a retcon. Changes made to make the story to appeal to the Great Spirit reveal.

 

You clearly prefer the "Golden Years" of Bionicle (2001-2003), and that's ok. I mostly prefer those years as well (though I love the Metru Nui saga). But bear in mind that the whole purpose of those years was to establish the lore and then start to slowly uncover all the secrets it introduced. 2001-2003 were years filled with mystery, which was precisely what made them so awesome. But you cannot truly appreciate that, IMO, until you learn the answers to those mysteries. That is what allows you to go back to these original stories and realize just how intricate the plot was, and how well-developed the secrets were. It makes you appreciate the Golden Years even more, since you find out that they actually had an idea and purpose behind them, instead of just being there for their own sake.

 

Lastly:

 

While this topic title may seem like a hate on the original line, when in fact it is not.

So, in more opinion, the original story is trash

 

Bonkle already pointed out this kinda humorous contradiction earlier, but I just had to repeat it, since it's so glaring. :P

 

 

This is why i will be writing a story called: BIONICLE: The Spiritual Story. This writing holds on to the concepts that we were told in 2001 and maintains those concepts. I will be rewriting a lot of the story as well in order to maintain the concepts.

 

This is a very good idea. In cases where you don't agree with the way the Bionicle story progressed, there is no better option than to create your own stories. After all, that is the essence of Bionicle. It has inspired so many people over the years and has fed the creativity of millions of people around the world. However you feel about the story LEGO told us, we can always create our own, and replace "official" canon with our own ideas. :) (That's what allows me to discard the most ridiculous story aspects like alternate dimensions and the Red Star being a machine to cheapen the deaths of all beings in the MU :P )

Edited by Toatapio Nuva
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I think someone's opinion of later BIONICLE years is heavily influenced by when they joined the story - I see a lot of 'Golden Years' veterans disliking the 2008-2010 arcs, whereas many 2004-introduced fans like myself enjoy the more technical-focused aspects. Sure, the story took some odd twists and turns along its journey, but I think Greg and the rest of the story team did the best they could with the limited creative freedom they had.

'Makuta' becoming a species rather than a single being isn't what bothers me, per se, rather, I dislike the way Makuta were cheapened following the Phantoka's introduction. Before 2008, multiple Toa teams had difficulty subduing one Makuta, but then one Toa team can fend off up to 8 Makuta at a time? Granted, I think it goes to show how much of an elite Teridax was, but I can't help but feel the Conservation of Ninjitsu is in full effect.

And, like others above, I do take issue with the choice of words describing the Mata Nui Robot - perhaps the Great Spirit Colossus would have been more fitting?

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Mata Nui being a giant robot under the island was the driving force behind the entire BIONICLE story from day one. It wasn't just a story of mysticism and spirits, it's an allegory for disease. The Toa are medicine capsules sent to cure this sleeping giant of his illness.

 

Christian Faber has several posts on his blog Faber Files about the subject. It's a great read, not only for the insight into the process but also for all the amazing concept art.

Exactly that. Faber shows that the giant robot is hinted at from day one. The layer of giant metallic unbreakable strata below Onu-Koro in MNOG? Kapura talking about Mata Nui falling from the sky? Lewa mentioning how weird it is all their fights end up underground? The twin suns of Metru Nui closing as Mata Nui falls asleep? It was implied multiple times from day one, and Faber's blog shows it all.

 

If anything it is my Favorite part of old Bionicle, that Lego dropped hints about it for 7 years, and no one figured it out until 2008 itself. Genius I say.

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'Makuta' becoming a species rather than a single being isn't what bothers me, per se, rather, I dislike the way Makuta were cheapened following the Phantoka's introduction. Before 2008, multiple Toa teams had difficulty subduing one Makuta, but then one Toa team can fend off up to 8 Makuta at a time? Granted, I think it goes to show how much of an elite Teridax was, but I can't help but feel the Conservation of Ninjitsu is in full effect.

And, like others above, I do take issue with the choice of words describing the Mata Nui Robot - perhaps the Great Spirit Colossus would have been more fitting?

 

I do have to say this is probably my opinion on the subject too, they build them up as being so powerfull with all those rahkshi powers n whatnot (actually, habing all the rahkshi powers is one of the few things i dislike about the makuta but whatever) and then when they show the eight makuta in karda-nui they're practically pushovers!

 

I just warmed up to the karda-nui Makuta pretty quickly because they're vampires, bionicle vampires. u:

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I know this has probably been said numerous times by now, but I think the twists in Bionicle's story wouldn't have been so jarring if it weren't for the fact that the story became so huge and sprawling. Yes the Matoran living in Mata Nui's body may have been hinted at from the beginning, but  having to wait through seven years of story with several drastic shifts in tone and setting before we get any payoff to those hints takes something out of it, no? I know many people here like how extensive the Bionicle universe became, but I find myself thinking I would have liked it much better as a shorter, more tightly focused narrative.

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Well, every single one of those complaints you had is perfectly valid, as long as you understand it's coming from your personal preferences (well, probably mostly), and will be shared only by those who happen to, for whatever reasons, have similar tastes as you. You're not wrong on this -- and none of these are new complaints. However, you're also not universal on them. I liked most of the things you mentioned, for example, especially the giant.

 

It also can help to try to understand where they were coming from, though, I find -- in terms of why they made the choices they made. Even if some were liked, though, they could still be overall a mistake. It can help, even then, to understand why they kind of "had" to make that mistake. (Didn't know better at the time, weren't experienced enough, etc.) :shrugs: How much this helps you depends on a lot of things, no real way to predict.

 

For example, robotic-seeming beings (biomechanical) barely surviving on a tropical island -- this makes sense with the background of coming from someplace where such beings would be expected. It was awesome because it was so odd, but it was sort of inevitable we'd get some kind of clarity on why, and it's preferable it would be a fascinating, original explanation. Having them be the crew comparable to cells in a body of a giant spaceship that is comparable to a person who is sick with cancer and needs cured is frankly brilliant and of the possible sensible explanations of "robots got stranded on an island", it's probably the best anybody could ever think of. (Imagine the alternatives. They're just the crew of a garbage scow that breaks down randomly... they're mechanical soldiers who were shot down... not all of these would be bad... but what we got was amazing.)

 

Something that always gets me is that as you learn more and more about quality storytelling, you can begin to fear that old simpler stories you used to like will be revealed to be not so good, and even the ones you now think are good could later seem bad compared to some hypothetical perfect story in the end. Worrying about this too much IMO misses the point of all of them; the answer is that it can be enjoyable in a different way to watch stories that have identified mistakes. You can enjoy seeing the mistake too, and get something new out of it, ironically (though probably not intended by the authors lol).

 

For example, recently watched all of A-Team on Netflix. A car just happening to flip on every single episode even when there's no visible reason... from a practical perspective alone is laughable, but I enjoyed the watch anyways, you know? (Maybe that one WAS intentional... not sure. There's also the "shooting from the hip" which actual elite soldiers would never do... according to Mythbusters.)

 

So... the answer to your title question can be YES -- Bionicle is as good as we think, if we keep in mind no story is perfect, and we can learn from the mistakes, and enjoy the good sides of all of it, etc. It's exactly as good as we think, because we don't think it's better than it really was. :P If you will.

 

(Though technically, a "no" is more accurate -- for any story -- because the chances that we have a perfect understanding either of what makes a perfect story... or of any particular story itself for that matter... are slim. Simply because there's always probably room for improvement.)

 

 

Edit: To replies, just one note -- the Makuta in 2008 were faking their opposition to the Toa. Their being "pushovers" was intentional on their part because the Plan required the Toa to win. This was made crystal clear. (Of course, those Makuta didn't know "Makuta" (Terry) was betraying them to their deaths in the process.) So no, that didn't cheapen Makuta as a species.

Edited by bonesiii
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'Makuta' becoming a species rather than a single being isn't what bothers me, per se, rather, I dislike the way Makuta were cheapened following the Phantoka's introduction. Before 2008, multiple Toa teams had difficulty subduing one Makuta, but then one Toa team can fend off up to 8 Makuta at a time? Granted, I think it goes to show how much of an elite Teridax was, but I can't help but feel the Conservation of Ninjitsu is in full effect.

And, like others above, I do take issue with the choice of words describing the Mata Nui Robot - perhaps the Great Spirit Colossus would have been more fitting?

 

I do have to say this is probably my opinion on the subject too, they build them up as being so powerfull with all those rahkshi powers n whatnot (actually, habing all the rahkshi powers is one of the few things i dislike about the makuta but whatever) and then when they show the eight makuta in karda-nui they're practically pushovers!

 

I just warmed up to the karda-nui Makuta pretty quickly because they're vampires, bionicle vampires. u:

 

 

I feel it's worth pointing out that the 2008 story explicitly acknowledged and explained this. The Makuta were only holding back because they needed the Toa Nuva alive to awaken Mata Nui so that the Plan could succeed. Once Mata Nui was awake, the Makuta could have killed them without issue, but of course the Energy Storms made that impossible. I recall the Toa Nuva wondering throughout that year about the fact that they were still alive and that the Codrex still existed (and therefore the key to awakening Mata Nui) despite the Makuta's power and obvious capability of destroying them and their hopes of awakening the Great Spirit. 

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There's no such thing as a perfect story, hon. Perhaps I'm more mellow about this kind of thing than others, but I have zero problem with the majority of Bionicle these days. It's hard to explain, but I've come to love stories for their cons as much as their pros.

I don't really have anything more to add since most of the above posts pretty much cover it, but it was nice to hear your thoughts!

 

For example, robotic-seeming beings (biomechanical) barely surviving on a tropical island -- this makes sense with the background of coming from someplace where such beings would be expected. It was awesome because it was so odd, but it was sort of inevitable we'd get some kind of clarity on why, and it's preferable it would be a fascinating, original explanation. Having them be the crew comparable to cells in a body of a giant spaceship that is comparable to a person who is sick with cancer and needs cured is frankly brilliant and of the possible sensible explanations of "robots got stranded on an island", it's probably the best anybody could ever think of. (Imagine the alternatives. They're just the crew of a garbage scow that breaks down randomly... they're mechanical soldiers who were shot down... not all of these would be bad... but what we got was amazing.)


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For me personally, yes. That being said, even as a child, I recognized Bionicle's story for what it was, something made in order to sell toys. I liked the toys and the fact that there was a crazy expanded universe to it was just icing on the cake. The basic story was fine, although I remember avoiding the serials to be honest. The story had more than its fair share of issues even as a kid I could see how silly some story arcs were done, but I always thought of it in relation to Transformers or other lines that were basically made for toys. I think it's just as good as I remember it, which is to say when it was happening I knew it was cheesy and silly at times, but that didn't stop me from enjoying it for what it was, it was never meant to be the grand scifi epic some people make it out to be, but it was a lot of fun, and it really opened my imagination for coming up with my own characters which in a way started my creative thinking which eventually made me a writer.

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Regarding the point about Mata Nui and Teridax being brothers:

You see, just because they were established as brothers doesn't mean they were. You learned the story through the eyes of a Matoran. Because of their limited understanding of how their world worked, the Matoran developed stories and myths to explain what cannot be explained, similar to our world's religions. As the story goes on, you learn more and more about the true nature of their universe, until the curtain of myth is pulled back to reveal the factual truth behind it all. The reveal of Teridax's true nature was all part of the storytelling process, not a deterioration of the original concepts.

 

That comparison you made to reglion/mythologies is a brilliant way to put it.

 

I think you're misguided on some of these. I'll grant that the Great Beings were not necessary given that we never got that far in the story.

 

For Makuta and Mata Nui being actual brothers, well, there were no "actual" brothers in Bionicle. But these two were brothers, if not in name. They became equals and duked it out in the finale.

 

From my perspective, I still think the story is pretty good. As much as it was awkwardly steered by the sale of new toys, it did a great job. There were some good character moments... Although that wasn't the appeal for me. The world building, is what did it for me.

 

Also, I LOATHE Giant Robot.

Not Mata Nui being a really big guy. The phrase GIANT ROBOT. Robot means servant droid. The MU was a shell with a conscience. He was just as real as the people inside him, for whom the word "robot" seems ridiculous. They couldn't have thought of a better general term for "the robot"?

 

+1. The world building is my favorite part about Bionicle too.

 

The term "giant robot" kinda bugs me too. For instance, (going a bit off-topic here) I would not describe Unicron from the Transformer series as a mere "giant robot". Although he technically is one indeed, he is way more larger-than-life, peculiar, unfathomable and terrifying ("awe-inspiring" instead of terrifying in the case of the Great Spirit) than "giant robot" would suggest.

 

Since I belong to that admittedly small category of people who actually think Bionicle had the best story out of any stories out there (if only due to the established culture and lore rather than the actual story arcs), I feel I should address some of your points.

 

 

If, WHEN, i offend someone, please be mature and not act on rage but instead be civil thank you.

 

I'll do my best.

 

 

From the beginning, Makuta has been the brother of Mata Nui for years until one thing changed it all, 2008. Here he was named Teridax and the name Makuta became a race. But here is the major thing: It didn't need to be changed. There was no point in doing so. I really liked the idea of these two brothers descending from the heavens to guide and help the Matoran have a purpose. However, Makuta felt unloved by his own deeds and became forgotten and feared, so he devised a plan out of jealousy and a need for be loved and want to receive these things. It paints the Makuta as a tragic hero in this story and all of that is gone in the following years after 2003.

 

I originally had a hard time accepting Makuta as a species too, and I still think it could've been handled better. But I do think that expanding on Teridax was necessary, and the way he turned out was actually more interesting to me, since it gave him more character depth and a history of his own. Also, he still has the same motivations as his earlier form. He was jealous to Mata Nui, even though he wasn't his brother, and his ultimate goal to become the Great Spirit was brilliant, since he actually got exactly what he wanted from him. He was jealous towards what Mata Nui had, and he succeeded in getting all of it.

 

Well, save for the allegiance of the Matoran, of course.

 

 

The great beings are a terrible addition to the lore. I would have been fine if they didn't include them, after all, Mata Nui could have been the creator of the all the races.

 

Someone had to create the gigantic body of Mata Nui, didn't they? If not, we would all be wondering how a giant robot could have come into being in the first place. Though I agree that especially in the later years, the idea of the Great Beings was taken way too far, and in an inconsistent manner.

 

 

This is my least favorite part of BIONICLE, and the worst thing ever. Why does the entire universe exist inside a giant robot?! You see, in the first three years of BIONICLE, we had a very tribal and mystical vibe from BIONICLE. It was AMAZING! It was so unique and brilliant. I love how they combined the environment with the lore and the characters. It was so unique. It also works for the story: Elemental wielding characters that live in this environment that fits their element. However, as BIONICLE continued, this concept is destroyed. 2004 began the downfall of BIONICLE, but some years would mainain a good tribal vibe: 2006 and 2007. But 2008 was the death of BIONICLE. It destroyed all that we learned about BIONICLE. IT created a sense of artificialness. Heres what I mean: Robot-like beings living in a organic environment: 2001 - 2003, and 2006-2007. Robot-like beings that live in a robotic environment the entire story. It also destroys the concept of the Mata Nui being a great spirit.

 

It's understandable that this divides opinions, since it came as a surprise to all of us when it was revealed. However, the story team knew all along, and it's essentially the core concept of Bionicle. Without this red thread, Bionicle wouldn't be... well... Bionicle. I was originally disappointed with the concept, but when I began finding out more about all the planning and work that had gone into creating this, I realized how essential it was to the overall story, and how well it connected all the dots. That was the factor that made me regard Bionicle as the best story I have ever had the pleasure to experience, as over-the-top as it may sound. It wasn't just the reveal, it was also how well it had been foreshadowed in previous years, all the while keeping it a secret. It's also quite an original and fascinating concept, which I truly appreciate.

 

Though, as Zestanor already pointed out, they could've called it something other than "giant robot". That term is just way too blunt and really doesn't capture the awe and wonder of Mata Nui's form.

 

 

The entire story of BIONICLE is one big

 

RETCON

 

This is simply untrue. The only things ever retconned in Bionicle were minor details established by Greg Farshtey, and in those cases he was also the one to retcon them. The main story elements stayed consistent until the end.

 

 

If BIONICLE was meant to be what was revealed in 2008, then why trick and lie to the fans from 2001-2010? You have us believe one thing, then completely shift it another way. Characters we once believed to be bigger then life are downgraded to nothing but insects. The world we knew and loved became artificial. The mystical story we loved became a lie. You see, thats why i hate theses changes, they destroyed and made everything a lie. But it was all a retcon. Changes made to make the story to appeal to the Great Spirit reveal.

 

You clearly prefer the "Golden Years" of Bionicle (2001-2003), and that's ok. I mostly prefer those years as well (though I love the Metru Nui saga). But bear in mind that the whole purpose of those years was to establish the lore and then start to slowly uncover all the secrets it introduced. 2001-2003 were years filled with mystery, which was precisely what made them so awesome. But you cannot truly appreciate that, IMO, until you learn the answers to those mysteries. That is what allows you to go back to these original stories and realize just how intricate the plot was, and how well-developed the secrets were. It makes you appreciate the Golden Years even more, since you find out that they actually had an idea and purpose behind them, instead of just being there for their own sake.

 

Lastly:

 

While this topic title may seem like a hate on the original line, when in fact it is not.

So, in more opinion, the original story is trash

 

Bonkle already pointed out this kinda humorous contradiction earlier, but I just had to repeat it, since it's so glaring. :P

 

 

This is why i will be writing a story called: BIONICLE: The Spiritual Story. This writing holds on to the concepts that we were told in 2001 and maintains those concepts. I will be rewriting a lot of the story as well in order to maintain the concepts.

 

This is a very good idea. In cases where you don't agree with the way the Bionicle story progressed, there is no better option than to create your own stories. After all, that is the essence of Bionicle. It has inspired so many people over the years and has fed the creativity of millions of people around the world. However you feel about the story LEGO told us, we can always create our own, and replace "official" canon with our own ideas. :) (That's what allows me to discard the most ridiculous story aspects like alternate dimensions and the Red Star being a machine to cheapen the deaths of all beings in the MU :P )

 

I agree with all your points here. One note about the Great Beings though: I might be in the minority here but I love the concept of having a group like the Great Beings in Bionicle. A mysterious, ancient, knowledgeable, technologically advanced, powerful race of beings capable of shaping worlds... That always keep my curiosity running wild. Too bad they are no longer featured in the current Bionicle storyline, but other than feeling a little let-down that the stories of the Great Beings aren't told in full, I don't feel particularly disappointed about their exclusion.

 

I think someone's opinion of later BIONICLE years is heavily influenced by when they joined the story - I see a lot of 'Golden Years' veterans disliking the 2008-2010 arcs, whereas many 2004-introduced fans like myself enjoy the more technical-focused aspects. Sure, the story took some odd twists and turns along its journey, but I think Greg and the rest of the story team did the best they could with the limited creative freedom they had.

'Makuta' becoming a species rather than a single being isn't what bothers me, per se, rather, I dislike the way Makuta were cheapened following the Phantoka's introduction. Before 2008, multiple Toa teams had difficulty subduing one Makuta, but then one Toa team can fend off up to 8 Makuta at a time? Granted, I think it goes to show how much of an elite Teridax was, but I can't help but feel the Conservation of Ninjitsu is in full effect.

And, like others above, I do take issue with the choice of words describing the Mata Nui Robot - perhaps the Great Spirit Colossus would have been more fitting?

 

 

 

'Makuta' becoming a species rather than a single being isn't what bothers me, per se, rather, I dislike the way Makuta were cheapened following the Phantoka's introduction. Before 2008, multiple Toa teams had difficulty subduing one Makuta, but then one Toa team can fend off up to 8 Makuta at a time? Granted, I think it goes to show how much of an elite Teridax was, but I can't help but feel the Conservation of Ninjitsu is in full effect.

And, like others above, I do take issue with the choice of words describing the Mata Nui Robot - perhaps the Great Spirit Colossus would have been more fitting?

 

I do have to say this is probably my opinion on the subject too, they build them up as being so powerfull with all those rahkshi powers n whatnot (actually, habing all the rahkshi powers is one of the few things i dislike about the makuta but whatever) and then when they show the eight makuta in karda-nui they're practically pushovers!

 

I just warmed up to the karda-nui Makuta pretty quickly because they're vampires, bionicle vampires. u:

 

 

I feel it's worth pointing out that the 2008 story explicitly acknowledged and explained this. The Makuta were only holding back because they needed the Toa Nuva alive to awaken Mata Nui so that the Plan could succeed. Once Mata Nui was awake, the Makuta could have killed them without issue, but of course the Energy Storms made that impossible. I recall the Toa Nuva wondering throughout that year about the fact that they were still alive and that the Codrex still existed (and therefore the key to awakening Mata Nui) despite the Makuta's power and obvious capability of destroying them and their hopes of awakening the Great Spirit. 

 

 

Thanks for pointing this out. It is interesting how they are basically commanded by Teridax to feign it, putting up a weak fight on purpose.


Your left brain contains nothing right, while your right brain contains nothing left.

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For example, robotic-seeming beings (biomechanical) barely surviving on a tropical island -- this makes sense with the background of coming from someplace where such beings would be expected. It was awesome because it was so odd, but it was sort of inevitable we'd get some kind of clarity on why

I don't see why this was inevitable at all. It could be viewed as such given how the Bionicle story was originally conceived, but it could just have easily been the creators saying "Hey, let's create a world where robotic/biomechanical beings live in a tribal setting on a tropical island, because that would be really cool" and then that being all there was to it. Chima didn't have an inevitable clarification of why there were sapient animal tribes; it was just a part of the original conceit that this was the nature of the characters.

 

~B~

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The original Bionicle story IS, most certainly as good as we think 

Well, most of the guys have summed up my argument. So I'll keep it short as possible (and try not to reiterate what has been said before).

 

 LEGO never lied to us. Mata Nui as the sleeping behemoth beneath the island was there from inception. It just got a late reveal. The Mata-Nui/Golden Years (2001-2003) were most certainly superb - I'll argue with anyone who disliked them - but they had, compared to the rest of the Years, were rather simple when it came to plot and morality. This was because of the ingenious Matorans-eye point of view (MPOV), which was shaped by what the Turaga told them.

 

 From 2004 onwards, we got characters with highly questionable morality, tonnes of intrigue and power-play, a generous dash of darkness, complex interlocking plots, and some surprisingly savage violence. As time went by, it was revealed that Makuta Teridax and his brethren have exactly the same motives as Teridax was introduced as having - except far more bitter. They did everything to keep the Matoran safe (though why don't we make a few aggro Rahi and release them into the city during a civil war? Ho ho ho) and were never recognised - instead, the Great Spirit, (who they know as just a big slob "The Gods Must Be Lazy"), is thanked for everything, when they do all the hard work. I thought the species aspect of the Brotherhood of Makuta was a rather good idea.

 

The story shot up to some amazing highs, and the revelation that our belov'd heroes were naught but insects in a universe within a universe - so small that their Great Spirit ignored them and studied other species - was a rather good usage of the Cosmic Horror Story trope. We got scenes and places that would have never happened if the story had stayed on the island of Mata-Nui. Tell me, would the story have lasted a decade if it had been confined to one island? How many threats can Makuta pull out of his gauntlets?   

 

 Mata Nui is a flawed character, who nonetheless tries to atone for his mistakes in the 2009-2010 arc. The '09-'10 era is (probably) my personal favourite - the serials and podcasts were top-notch, Raid on Vulcanus is one of the greatest BIONICLE books, we had some great characters and one of the most complex villains we ever saw (Tuma), and Greg did his best to make the (not-very-good) Legend Reborn seem good in his novelisation. The only big problems with it was the two year development, some characters (Perditus, the Kaxium Duo) getting under-developed and, of course, The Legend Reborn 's bad moments. The tribal setting itself was a sly homage to 2001-2003 arcs.

 

 2010 wasn't the best resolution, but it did a great job considering its boundaries (gotta disagree on the sets however. There were hardly any of them, and they were all too small, and lime-green Gresh just wasn't good enough considering his 2009 set). The Great Beings were - though not necessary until 2006 - an important part of the story who really enhanced its enigmatic feel. They are the ultimate grey morality - those who have seen it fit to create and destroy life as they see fit, and never truly caring for the fate of the small guy.

 

 If you took a really good look at it, you would discover that there are hardly any Retcons, and those that exist are mostly minor (such as the debate whether Sidorak and Carapar are alive or dead on the Red Star, or the Matoran romance - because they do not affect the plot overly. [i can totally see hundreds of angry Romance-Revivalists sharpening their blades and girding themselves for war against Erasmus Graves right now. Guys, it's OK. I understand how you feel, it's just that it didn't affect the plot very much...] .)

 

  In conclusion, the original BIONICLE story IS as good as we think as it is. 

 

If anyone wants to disagree with me by saying the '09 era was bad: 

First, read Raid on Vulcanus, read the serials and listen to the podcasts.

Then come at me bro.   :afro:          

Edited by Erasmus Graves

"Mutiny, Booty and Entropy"  - The Three Vices of the Frostelus

[flash=250,100]http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/sprxtrerme/BANNERS/thornax.swf

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one of the most complex villains we ever saw (Tuma)

How was Tuma a complex villain?

Compared to every other villain in the franchise, whose motivation was being BBEG/Pawn of the Year? Tuma wanted to save his people. He would've been a hero were we looking through the Skrall's eyes. Unfortunately, he was against Designated Hero Mata Nui and the worse foe of Limited Screen Time.

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:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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yawn.

 

tbh, the original bionicle story isn't as good as a lot of folks think, and it's not really anyone's fault, there's jsut this weird thing called "nostalgia" that can impact people's ability to see certain, glaring flaws in the way something was handled in their immediate past. o:

 

it is, admittedly, still a fine and dnady story, especially for a kids' toyline! but, to be brutally honest, it often times tried to be something it wasn't, and that hurt it, a lot. :0

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Corpus Rahkshi characters: Snap, Teeth ,Rose,Kaita

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It seems to me that very few fully accept the Bionicle storyline - everybody has his/her own headcanons. What one hates, the other loves. There are details of the canon story I don't like either, but coming up with my own version is some kind of "creative challenge", and I like it. Also, I find interesting reading others' versions, what they kept from the original, what are their headcanons.

What I really liked (and still like after all these years) about Bionicle isn't the story "as it is", but the possibilities it gives. More or less like the sets themselves, that can be tweaked or used for original creations.

 

I just wish GregF answered a little less questions, there are too many technical details that kinda sound like Retcons.
Also, I tend to consider the Bionicle sagas as "separate stories", so in the 2001-2003 saga Makuta is Mata Nui's brother, some kind of evil spirit, while in the 2006-2008 saga he is a member of a species.


hidron_nuva_idea.png

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For example, robotic-seeming beings (biomechanical) barely surviving on a tropical island -- this makes sense with the background of coming from someplace where such beings would be expected. It was awesome because it was so odd, but it was sort of inevitable we'd get some kind of clarity on why

I don't see why this was inevitable at all. It could be viewed as such given how the Bionicle story was originally conceived, but it could just have easily been the creators saying "Hey, let's create a world where robotic/biomechanical beings live in a tribal setting on a tropical island, because that would be really cool" and then that being all there was to it. Chima didn't have an inevitable clarification of why there were sapient animal tribes; it was just a part of the original conceit that this was the nature of the characters.

 

~B~

 

Hence "sort of". :)

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Chima didn't have an inevitable clarification of why there were sapient animal tribes; it was just a part of the original conceit that this was the nature of the characters.

~B~

 

Just to be nitpicky, there was an explanation for this - magic sapience-inducing water. It wasn't as technical as Bionicle's explanations, but it was an explanation. 

 

They even went to explain in great detail of why these animal tribes got the magic water for some reason. 

 

---------------------------------------

 

Back in the distant realm of on-topic...

 

Since Bionicle is a story, a construct which its "goodness" is judged by the ability to please the readers, then Bionicle is only as good as we (the people of the universe) think of it. It's the sum total of positive or negative experiences, which cannot be calculated. 

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Dear Toatapio Nuva.
 
You asked how Tuma was a complex villain.
 
Regitnui gave a good explanation, but here I present a part of my own argument. You can find the original post in the page: Tuma, Two-face? http://www.bzpower.com/board/topic/21175-tuma-two-face/

 

If you still feel sceptical, go and read the serial Empire of the Skrall, and after that, Raid on Vulcanus.

 

He's [Tuma] more anti-villain than most of the antagonists, sometimes veering towards 'anti-hero' more than villain (e.g.. Metus is the ultimate opportunist, out for himself and none other, Ahkmou got brainwashed by Teridax into a deliberately malicious fellow, the Piraka are unabashed cutthroats, traitors and murderers, the Brotherhood of Makuta are a dysfunctional family/organisation who fell from their role as peacekeepers because they craved recognition and acceptance, Sidorak is a foot soldier who happens to be a boss at tactics and a part-time political animal, Roodaka's a demon and manipulatrix supreme in Vortixx form, willing to sell her soul to the devil for power, and the Dark Hunters just want lots of moolah).



Tuma is a pretty selfless guy in many ways, sacrificing his personal wants for his race (though most definite in making sure he's in charge). He's a remarkably complex character for a one-year villain. His end is quintessential Greek Tragedy, because he's booted out of his position as leader and exiled after somehow getting whupped by a gold-clad nancy-boy. He is, as Richard Adams would put it:

Quote
"...a character like the tragic heroes of Ancient Greece, who secured great blessings for their society but paid heavily for their accomplishments in terms of personal suffering."
End Quote
That's from the 2014 introduction to his [Richard Adam's] second novel, Shardik (great book, but completely unrelated to Bionicle).


OK, Tuma does lose in his battle against Mata Nui, but still, he dedicated his life for the good of his race. And it must have been even worse for him when he is exiled, as he watches the structure of his race's society collapse, leaving nothing but roaming warbands searching for petty plunder. They have been reduced to the state of Bone Hunters, except not quite as skilled in desertcraft and walk instead of ride. All that he has striven for, all that he has created...



...Has come to nothing.

Edited by Erasmus Graves

"Mutiny, Booty and Entropy"  - The Three Vices of the Frostelus

[flash=250,100]http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/sprxtrerme/BANNERS/thornax.swf

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Having read the whole story just last year from start to finish, I can say with confidence that it was indeed a good story. The way the media split up the events into a nearly incomprehensible timeline was the real culprit. I think each self-contained story was fantastic, and the overarching plot had both tension and payoff. It's great but could have been told better.

 

-NotS

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Dear Toatapio Nuva.

 

You asked how Tuma was a complex villain.

 

Regitnui gave a good explanation, but here I present a part of my own argument. You can find the original post in the page: Tuma, Two-face? http://www.bzpower.com/board/topic/21175-tuma-two-face/

 

If you still feel sceptical, go and read the serial Empire of the Skrall, and after that, Raid on Vulcanus.

 

(snip)

 

I haven't read Empire of the Skrall since 2009 and never read Raid on Vulcanus, so I didn't even recall Tuma having a proper personality. :o I only remember The Legend Reborn's portrayal of him, which must certainly be the worst portrayal of him out there (much like they did with Sidorak in Web of Shadows). I knew he was better in other media, but never thought of him as complex. I guess this is a good example of how bad the movie screwed him over as a character.

 

After what you've said, I think I should go and reread The Empire of the Skrall and even Raid on Vulcanus...

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