Doctor Who. Official!

[Munty]

Timelines can change, and surely everything that Missy did over this season wasn't part of Danny's timeline beforehand.

 

Did they retcon this with the revival series? As I'm pretty sure it's always held true that you can't change time. I know there are 'fied points' in time mentioned in the revival but certainly the classic episodes I've seen so far suggest that even when they think they're changing history there's actually no way to know that they aren't doing eactly what was required of them to maintain history. In fact in one episode it's shown that the Doctor is responsible for giving Nero the idea to burn down Rome so I'd suggest history is already written. Think of how River and the Doctor kept crossing paths out of order. Time is constant, unchangeable, we just all see it in different orders as far as DW is concerned...

 

Except for the fact that without the Doctor, most likely Clara and Danny wouldn't have met, and Missy caused the Doctor and Clara to meet, which means that Missy's meddling had already affected Clara and Danny's timelines.

 

Clara was already a teacher and Danny would have started working at the same school without the Doctor. In fact it's HIM who would never have met Danny if not for already having met Clara. Not the other way around... 

[CHTrilogy]

 

 

Watched the finale, not sure how to feel about it... Lot's of stuff has just happened that seems to make very little sense to me.

 

Danny is dead? Just as we started to get some decent character development from him (and he and Clara as a couple) they run him over with a car. But then they spend that whole episode suggesting he's still osrt of alive, and then in the finale he's basically brought back but is considered to be 'already dead'. Then at the very end he has yet another chance to come back but sends the kid instead. Where eactly did he send the kid back from anyway? The Nethersphere was shutdown so they can't have gone back there, and that kid probably wasn't a cyberman as he wouldn't fit the hardware so how could he and Danny have ended up in the same place? Essentially when the nethersphere shutdown, all the 'images' within it were either downloaded into Cybermen or purged from the system. So that kid should have already been deleted. Otherwise, I'm onboard with Danny's moral reasoning for that choice but it still leaves him dead which is a lame end for his character... Also, has everyone on the writing team forgotten that Clara has already met her great grandson or whatever he was? He said very clearly that his grandfather used to talk all the time about travelling through time and he stated time travel 'runs in the family' But if Danny is dead and Clara is leaving the Tardis then WHO is he talking about? Plus the fact that the only way Clara and Danny will ever produce a bloodline now is if she is somehow already pregnant. Conceivable but completely glazed over by the writers. So many loose ends like always!

 

Another p[roblem, already mentioned, is HOW do you make cybermen from skeletons and a digital 'image' of the former individual? Where do you upload that profile if there is no brain (which seems likely to be the case as all those in Dark Water have no organs remaining) The manufacturing process would be impossible too as what do you connect the armour to? It's kind of the difference between Darth Vader and a Storm Trooper. The troopers body holds their armour wheras Vader's armour essentially holds him! The one size fits all Cyberman approach simply wouldn't work on these deteriorated corpses, especially those already buried!

 

Speaking of which... We've seen cyberman production lines in several previous stories so we know what's generally involved. In what universe is it possible for rain carrying the digital information of the recently deceased to locate it's previous body and then IMMEDIATELY carry out a full conversion without introducing any new tools or materials? Conservation of matter anyone? Water does not a Cyberman make... Besides, if this method was possible, how likely is it that the Master would figure it out before the Cybermen themselves???

 

Also about that rain... In the beginning of the episode, ONE cyberman from each city/area exploded in the sky to create this weird cloud of something or other... Anyone pick up what the cloud was? Was it natural rain clouds created by the eplosion or are we meant to believe that it was ALL debris from that one tiny cyberman explosion? Let's not forget the clouds continued to grow until they basically covered the whole world. The explosion must have created rain clouds and used them to distribute their cyber-pollen I assume but that's still just as ridiculous as any other theory. And again, how does cyber-pollen make cybermen? How did the water carrying it flow upwards??? Is the cyber-pollen some sort of nanobot which was using the water as a means of transport? Even then, how does it travel upwards INSIDE the water?!

 

And now the Master is dead too? I mean, you know, really dead... S/He was disintegrated by a cyber-blaster. Aint no regenerating from that. We saw the doctor regrow a hand once while still regenerating but that's quite different. Unless we're now to believe that timelords are Cell-like (Dragonball Z) lifeforms that can fully regenerate from even a single cell then that's the end of the Master for, you know, ever... A possible get-out would be to say S/He was teleported away but remember who was in the Cyber-suit that shot her? Pretty sure he'd be shooting to kill after the attempted murder of his daughter.

 

Pretty sure there is even more wrong with the episode than this but I'd have to watch it again to pick up more. It wasn't a bad finale if you're able to switch your brain down a few gears while watching but like most of Capaldi's other episodes it's been so far from believable I found it hard to truly enjoy. Seriously, Kill the moon? The egg hatched a creature less than half it's size which immediately laid another egg the same size as the old moon. Complete with pre-formed craters too... What kind of creature pupates for a hundred thousand years then hatches and reproduces in the space of a decade? Terrible.

 

Also those rain clouds again... How come blowing up one cyberman CREATED those huge clouds that covered the entire world. Yet blowing up THOUSANDS of them all over the world simultaneously caused the clouds to dissipate? It should've caused some catastrophic Nuclear, cyber-winter, not some pansy deus ex-machina get out of jail free nonsense...

 

 

 

Exactly! Exactly my thoughts! This was one of the worst series of Who history, and believe me, there have been some doozies!

Edited November 9, 2014 by CHTrilogy

[The Swimming Beard]

 

 

 

You know, it's sad. It would have been difficult to set up an episode more perfectly than Death in Heaven was by Dark Water. I found Dark Water to be the best episode in years, and the Master reveal and the cybermen in the streets made a great cliffhanger at the end. 

 

Then, we got Death in Heaven, where we find out that the Cybermen weren't going to do anything dangerous, and would simply walk around and let people take selfies with them. We learn that Missy's huge plan was to... offer the Doctor an army, which she probably knew he wouldn't take anyway? What happened to diabolical plans like he/she had in The Sound of Drums or The End of Time? Why did she just stand by while her plan (if it could even be called a plan) disintegrated? Why was she so indifferent about dying? It really seemed like there were no real stakes in the episode, since Missy clearly wasn't going to use the cybermen. 

 

I wanted to like the episode, I really did. I didn't expect it to be as good as Dark Water, but I certainly thought it would be better than it was. Missy was great as the master, but that was one of the only redeeming qualities of the episode in my mind. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2014 by Smooth Jazz

[Toa of Gallifrey]

I'm pretty sure Clara's gonna be pregnant with Danny's baby in the Christmas episode, which will lead into Orson.

[Renewal]

 

 

 

You know, it's sad. It would have been difficult to set up an episode more perfectly than Death in Heaven was by Dark Water. I found Dark Water to be the best episode in years, and the Master reveal and the cybermen in the streets made a great cliffhanger at the end. 

 

Then, we got Death in Heaven, where we find out that the Cybermen weren't going to do anything dangerous, and would simply walk around and let people take selfies with them. We learn that Missy's huge plan was to... offer the Doctor an army, which she probably knew he wouldn't take anyway? What happened to diabolical plans like he/she had in The Sound of Drums or The End of Time? Why did she just stand by while her plan (if it could even be called a plan) disintegrated? Why was she so indifferent about dying? It really seemed like there were no real stakes in the episode, since Missy clearly wasn't going to use the cybermen. 

 

I wanted to like the episode, I really did. I didn't expect it to be as good as Dark Water, but I certainly thought it would be better than it was. Missy was great as the master, but that was one of the only redeeming qualities of the episode in my mind. 

 

 

 

I think that's a deliberate story choice--Moffat has always preferred more down-to-earth climaxes over huge set pieces. We're unlikely to see anything akin to "The End of Time" under his run. Sure, he uses them as framing pieces, to establish situations and conflicts, but the real heart of the story has always been with the individual. In "The Big Bang," the ultimate triumph is Amy remembering everything; it's not a story about a hero reigniting the universe, but of a young woman wanting her oldest friend back. "The Wedding of River Song" is the same: not restoring time, but River learning to let go and trust the Doctor. And "The Name of the Doctor" is about Clara's sacrifice--three simple steps into a wound in time, nothing more, and certainly not some grand scheme or mystery.

 

There's a wonderful analysis I found elsewhere, that describes "Death in Heaven" as ultimately two stories, with one simply being a shell for the other, the true heart of the story. On the surface, this is a throwback to the days of the Third Doctor, of the Doctor and UNIT saving the Earth from the invasion of the day. But the real story is the ultimate drama between the Doctor and the Master, and between Clara and Danny. I haven't really had the time to think it through yet, but so far the central moment for me is the Doctor finally getting a chance to declare who he is--even moreso than in "Flatline," this is his "I am the Doctor" moment. Everything the Master does is to get the Doctor to admit who he is--and he does so, just not in the way she expects. That was the real conflict in the story, for the Doctor--who has struggled all series long with whether or not he is a good man--to admit he's no different from her. And for him to defy her so simply, not in theatrics or heroics, but a in simple admission of his own failings and limitations, is just as cathartic as defeating the Master Race or locking away the Time Lords.

 

Then again, that's just me. I've always enjoyed Doctor Who for the way it examined characters and how I could relate that to me. It's definitely anticlimactic if character drama's not your thing.

 

Edited November 10, 2014 by Renewal

[CHTrilogy]

Did I mention that I REALLY, REALLY HATE MUPPAT????

[Toa of Gallifrey]

Yes you've mentioned your disdain for Moffat quite a few times.

[Dalek CAAN]

HELLO HUMANS AND NON HUMANS.

I AM DALEK CAAN, (Before I went crazy, died, etc. )

YOU MAY ASK ME SOME QUESTIONS. 

IF I DO NOT LIKE THEM, THEN YOU'LL BE EXTERMINATED.

IF YOU ARE A COMPANION TO THE DOCTOR THEN YOU'LL BE EXTERMINATED.

IF YOU ARE THE DOCTOR HIMSELF THEN YOU WILL BE EXTERMINATED

HAVE I MADE MYSELF CLEAR?

 

 

 

EXTERMINATE!

[John Smith]

Oh, not you again. Look, why don't you just drop the whole "EXTERMINATE!" thing for a minute, and answer one question: WHY WON"T YOU BLOODY DALEKS EVER GO AWAY??

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Trijhak]

There's a rumour, not sure of the validity of it however, that Daleks have to appear at least once a series for the BBC to keep the license to them so they can keep using them. For the BBC, they generally seem to think Daleks bring in audiences, because unlike most new monsters of the week they're recognisable and iconic.

 

Let's rate Dalek stories if we're talking about Daleks. Classic and New. If you haven't watched it yet, go and watch Genesis of the Daleks now.

[GSR]

I'm not certain it's exactly "once per series", but I'm pretty sure there's some stipulation between the BBC and Terry Nation's estate saying they have to pop up in the show fairly often for the BBC to keep the license. Which is why we get things like Adelaide Brooke seeing a Dalek as a child in "The Waters of Mars" and The Doctor finding that one half-defeated Dalek in "The Wedding of River Song"; not really any reason for them to be there, but it ticks the box.

 

Honestly, I've never been a tremendous fan of the Daleks - I don't dislike them, but they're also rarely the thing that draws me to an episode. That said I feel like I owe "Dalek" a rewatch, since it seems like everyone puts that as their favorite new Dalek story.

Edited November 15, 2014 by GSR

[Munty]

I think whether it's required or not, the daleks HAVE popped up every season since their inception haven't they? Although that's probably because Terry Nation was writing all of them in the early days. Terry Nation is the best thing to come out of classic who so far by the way. I'm only 3 seasons in though so I have no idea how long he stays on the team!

[Trijhak]

Actually, no. It's only in New Who that Daleks have been popping up every year. After Evil of the Daleks, Dalek stories are a bit more sparse. Heck, the 5th/6th/7th Doctors each had only one Dalek-centric story. A lot of the better dalek stories are the later ones, IMO. Later being Genesis and anything after it, because there were quite a lot of Dalek stories before Genesis.

 

But they're beginning to have the same problem with Cybermen now, too. At least since series 6.

[CHTrilogy]

They should just rent them out every so often.

[Dalek CAAN]

Oh, not you again. Look, why don't you just drop the whole "EXTERMINATE!" thing for a minute, and answer one question: WHY WON"T YOU BLOODY DALEKS EVER GO AWAY??

 

 

 

 

 

 

IT IS THE DOCTOR! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! EX-TERM-I-NATE!

*shoots lazer at you but I hit your fez instead blowing your fez up   *

 

 

EXTERMINATE!

Edited November 16, 2014 by Dalek CAAN

[Toa of Gallifrey]

I also read that they have to use them at least once every season or they can't use them at all. Don't really care, their episodes are usually enjoyable. None will ever beat Genesis of the Daleks, though (well, maybe Into the Dalek).

[Pomegranate]

I only made it an episode and half into Remembrance of the Daleks but that one seemed to be really good; also I may be a naysayer but I really liked Victory of the Daleks, the fanfare and light show when the Crayola Daleks come out gets me really excited, and I really enjoyed the episode and not knowing what was really up with their heel face turn in the first half

 

What was everyone's absolute worst Dalek episode? Is it the Manhattan one with the half-human hybrids because I feel like it should be agreed that that's the worst one by far

[Dalek CAAN]

What was everyone's absolute worst Dalek episode? Is it the Manhattan one with the half-human hybrids because I feel like it should be agreed that that's the worst one by far

 

I could've done without that episode but at least I appeared in it!

 

I can't really think about a Dalek episode I don't like... If I had to pick one then I would pick the one with the Ninth Doctor, it just hit me in the feels too much.

 

 

EXTERMINATE!

 

EDIT: Too much 's!

Edited November 17, 2014 by Dalek CAAN

[The Swimming Beard]

I only made it an episode and half into Remembrance of the Daleks but that one seemed to be really good; also I may be a naysayer but I really liked Victory of the Daleks, the fanfare and light show when the Crayola Daleks come out gets me really excited, and I really enjoyed the episode and not knowing what was really up with their heel face turn in the first half

 

What was everyone's absolute worst Dalek episode? Is it the Manhattan one with the half-human hybrids because I feel like it should be agreed that that's the worst one by far

 

I actually liked the Manhattan one. For me, it would probably be Into The Dalek. Not terrible, but rather bland overall. 

[Pomegranate]

 

I only made it an episode and half into Remembrance of the Daleks but that one seemed to be really good; also I may be a naysayer but I really liked Victory of the Daleks, the fanfare and light show when the Crayola Daleks come out gets me really excited, and I really enjoyed the episode and not knowing what was really up with their heel face turn in the first half

 

What was everyone's absolute worst Dalek episode? Is it the Manhattan one with the half-human hybrids because I feel like it should be agreed that that's the worst one by far

 

I actually liked the Manhattan one. For me, it would probably be Into The Dalek. Not terrible, but rather bland overall. 

 

I've only watched it once, so I think I might go back and rewatch it today; I've been missing Ten and Martha, so I'll give it a go. I just remember it just being kinda ridiculous and not all that great, but maybe I was only half paying attention or something.

 

I've seen Into the Dalek many times and I really like it, but it does drag in the middle, I feel. The music in the beginning during the spaceship chase is amazing though, probably one of my favorite moments from the whole season

[Trijhak]

Honestly, I thought Into the Dalek was the best Dalek story since... Dalek, in 2005. Unlike many other Dalek episodes, the Daleks actually managed to kill a few people and we saw the inner workings of a Dalek. Much better that it acted out of hatred of the Daleks, influenced by the Doctor's own hatred. Hatred is what makes a Dalek. Interesting take on the Daleks, much more so than Victory/Evolution/Journey, the first two practically being rehashes of Troughton's two Dalek stories and SE/JE being a generic 'OH NO DALEK DESTROY UNIVERSE WITH DAVROS'.

 

Cybermen could do with a fresh take, too. Focus more on the human aspects, get an uncanny valley feeling as opposed to walking emotionless robots. Try emulating early 60s Cybermen as opposed to late 60s and beyond. Have an episode about the creation of the Cybermen, maybe, like Genesis was for the Daleks? Cybermen could use a re-invention as they currently are. Heck, that practically need to be re-invented. If not that, then try an episode with a lone Cyberman stalking the streets of a major city or something. Make a lone cyberman be a huge threat. Have the death toll high but not ridiculously so, and not ridiculously low either. Exaggerate the human parts of it that make it act, emphasize the uncanny valley! Make it recognisable at first sight that it used to be human. Perhaps allow it to start converting people, like someone who was a bit over-enthusiastic at the prospect of cybernetics. Those people? None the wiser as they receive more and more cybernetic implants, losing more and more humanity. Emphasize that. Show the changes slowly. 

 

It's kind of frustrating that in pretty much of all new who (and arguably in the latter half of old who) Cybermen have been misused.

[Makuta Miras]

Also, the Cybermen appear to just be expies of the Iron Legion now, with the lights on their chests and the boosters in their feet...

[Pomegranate]

Would love to see Cybermen that echo the originals, focusing on the human aspect and maybe having people actually volunteering for the conversion rather than being converted against their will. Spooky stuff.

[The Swimming Beard]

There's a rumour, not sure of the validity of it however, that Daleks have to appear at least once a series for the BBC to keep the license to them so they can keep using them. For the BBC, they generally seem to think Daleks bring in audiences, because unlike most new monsters of the week they're recognisable and iconic.

 

Let's rate Dalek stories if we're talking about Daleks. Classic and New. If you haven't watched it yet, go and watch Genesis of the Daleks now.

 

I just realized, wasn't Series 6 Dalek-free?

[Van Hohenheim]

Was it series 5 or 6 that had the Big Bang 2?

[John Smith]

 

There's a rumour, not sure of the validity of it however, that Daleks have to appear at least once a series for the BBC to keep the license to them so they can keep using them. For the BBC, they generally seem to think Daleks bring in audiences, because unlike most new monsters of the week they're recognisable and iconic.

 

Let's rate Dalek stories if we're talking about Daleks. Classic and New. If you haven't watched it yet, go and watch Genesis of the Daleks now.

 

I just realized, wasn't Series 6 Dalek-free?

 

They showed a broken one In The Wedding of River Song. It was really just a cameo, but it still counts.

 

Was it series 5 or 6 that had the Big Bang 2?

The Big Bang was series 5, not sure what you mean by "Big Bang 2"?

[Van Hohenheim]

The two episodes involving the Pandorica and the universe being revived. I used the Chameleon Circuit title for some reason or another.

[Timelady Gallade]

[death in heaven spoilers sorta]

 

can we all just take a moment to remember that fact moffat brought rory back to life then killed him again?

 

[Van Hohenheim]

[death in heaven spoilers sorta]

 

can we all just take a moment to remember that fact moffat brought rory back to life then killed him again?

 

 

How many times has he died now? This is gonna become a running gag isn't it?

 

[Trijhak]

 

[death in heaven spoilers sorta]

 

can we all just take a moment to remember that fact moffat brought rory back to life then killed him again?

 

 

How many times has he died now? This is gonna become a running gag isn't it?

 

 

 

You're... two years too late, mate.

[Van Hohenheim]

I mean, in future series. Is there gonna be a 100th anniversary, and the daleks have resurrected all of the Doctor's former companions to form an army he couldn't kill without a lot of conflict.

 

Still a better idea than Series 8

[John Smith]

The two episodes involving the Pandorica and the universe being revived. I used the Chameleon Circuit title for some reason or another.

Oh. Yeah, that was series 5. One of the episodes is actually named "The Big Bang," hence my confusion.

[Dallior]

Does anyone here like the new Doctor? The new Capaldi doctor is pretty dang awesome, it's just the last few episodes that stink. Am i Right?

[Munty]

Does anyone here like the new Doctor? The new Capaldi doctor is pretty dang awesome, it's just the last few episodes that stink. Am i Right?

 

Agreed, Capaldi's Doctor is very different but his acting sells the new personality perfectly, even while he's battling ridiculous moon-creatures and worldwide insta-forests...

 

The writing on the other hand has been utterly shambolic this season. Would've rather seen no Doctor Who than the shambles we got this year! (please don't point out the fact that I don't have to watch it, you know that's not what I mean  )

Edited December 2, 2014 by Munty

[Toa of Gallifrey]

I thought series 8 has been the best written series since 5, certain episodes excluded.

[Pomegranate]

Capaldi is amazing, I love Twelve. He's a perfect Doctor, and Capaldi as a human being is just a blessing upon our Earth. I'm really excited for the next series cause I wanna see him develop more; I feel like series 8 was wasted on the whole "am I a good man" thing. I think we'd know him better if it wasn't while he was completely self aware of his actions and attitudes and trying to figure it out along with the audience, it always felt a bit tense and forced and unsure. I wanna see him really come into his own and be himself. His greatest moments so far have been when he just quits and let's himself go and do his thing, like his "I tried to be reasonable but y'all are just monsters I'm done with you" speech in Flatline, and the "just an idiot with a box" revelation in Death in Heaven. He was very alive in those scenes. I wanna see more of that confident Doctor who isn't reflecting on everything as he's doing it.

[Alyska]

Okay- why are we not talking about the Christmas special?

 

 

Easily one of the best Christmas episodes I've seen, and the ideas were very well synthesized- a huge improvement on last year's sprawling mess. Moffat is at he's best when he pulls a twist that was set up right under your nose- I remember wondering how people knew that the crabs trapped you in a dream state if they hadn't successfully woken anyone up from it, but I just thought it was a plot hole, not a possible plot point. The subconcious mind breaking through in the form of Danny and Santa Claus was very clever. I also liked the character of Shona a lot. 

 

The old!Clara fakeout was so well executed and heartwrenching that I can't help wondering if all of the "Jenna Coleman leaving?" rumours were put together just to pull this off.

 

[John Smith]

Okay- why are we not talking about the Christmas special?

 

Good question! I quite liked it, myself. I saw most of the twists coming (though not the one about old Clara). But it didn't matter that I saw them coming, because there was more to it than that--it was really all about the Doctor and Clara. I also liked that the crab-people were the inverse of the Angels--instead of having to keep your eyes open to stop them, you have to keep your eyes closed. I'm not sure which is scarier.

 

[Dallior]

Thanks to Doctor Who for making us mrtally afraid of... statues, shadows, Wi-Fi, snowmen, fat, etc... and now dreams.

 

 

STEVEN MOFFATT IS THE EPITOME OF EVIL.

[Doctor Makuta]

Honestly, I quite enjoyed this Christmas special. Not my favourite series of Doctor Who, this year I'll admit, but I've warmed up to the new Doctor from this episode.

Also if they just don't bother with a love story for the next 2 or 3 seasons that would be good.