Ussanui

[Toa Zaz]

Why did Takanuva build it? They already knew Makuta was in Mangaia, and he wasn't particularly far away. Hahli could come to the surface and alert everybody to come back down in no time. Why couldn't the Toa have all gone down to Mangaia on foot? Or, better yet, why not use the Mask of Speed to get there? The whole thing seems kind of illogical.

[Hitoshura]

Even though Mangaia was under them, Takanuva didn't know how to get there, due to an overload of confusing tunnels. So Hahli couldn't have done that. The Kraata he put in there guided him to Makuta, to save him some trouble. And the Toa Nuva stayed to protect the Matoran, I think.

[Chro]

I think he was asking that since Hahli was able to quickly and easily reach the surface and warn them, why was the Ussanui needed to find the lair? (I don't have an answer, just that clarification. )

[Toa Talo]

It was hidden in a maze of tunnels and so he needed the kraata to guide him there. Maybe Hahli remembered the way in from going there and followed it back. (Or she took lessons from Kapura on how to travel quickly )

[Toa Zaz]

And how did Hahli find her way back, anyway? She was in the trunk the whole time on the way there.

[fishers64]

And how did Hahli find her way back, anyway? She was in the trunk the whole time on the way there.

 

Memorized the vehicle's motions? Or maybe she just walked toward the light...(lame pun not intended).

[Baron Von Nebula]

One way elevator? Or maybe Teridax's maze is like the one on Odina, and he can change it with his mind- that would be possible, given the dimension-bending Makuta fortresses we have seen. Also, if he was distracted while fighting Takanuva, maybe the maze would revert to something much simpler and quicker to travel through.

[Toatapio Nuva]

Here's an even better question: after Hahli reached the Kini-Nui underground, how on earth did she climb up? The passage was nothing but a vertical, smooth "tube-like" tunnel.

[bonesiii]

Because he's secretly a motorcycle chopper.

 

Really, it wasn't that close. Mangai is next to the floor of a dome, while the entrance to the tunnel is at the very top. And it's a huge dome. The mystery to me isn't really the Ussanui but how the heck Macku [Edit: Sorry, Hahli... duh lol.] got back up and back down so fast.

 

How she knew the way is easy -- a dome only has a single highest point, so she just had to go up. Going down and finding the right part of the outer edge is the hard part. (And the Ussanui basically played the role of a magnet, thanks to the Kraata, directing Takanuva right to the correct spot.) Admittedly, then finding the way back down would be tricky but maybe she left markings on the stone columns like breadcrumbs on the way up.

 

Toatapio, no, the passage was not vertical but sloped, and probably spiraling and the like as it got to the outer edge. It was designed to be passable on foot, but it would take a while (especially going uphill).

Edited May 22, 2013 by bonesiii

[Lielac]

The mystery to me isn't really the Ussanui but how the heck Macku got back up and back down so fast.

'Twas Hahli, good sir. Assuming you mean when Takanuva tells her to get everybody and bring them down to watch him kick TerryMak's mask off.

[Mr. Coffee]

Because LEGO wanted to make a big set

[Toatapio Nuva]

Because he's secretly a motorcycle chopper.

 

Really, it wasn't that close. Mangai is next to the floor of a dome, while the entrance to the tunnel is at the very top. And it's a huge dome. The mystery to me isn't really the Ussanui but how the heck Macku [Edit: Sorry, Hahli... duh lol.] got back up and back down so fast.

 

How she knew the way is easy -- a dome only has a single highest point, so she just had to go up. Going down and finding the right part of the outer edge is the hard part. (And the Ussanui basically played the role of a magnet, thanks to the Kraata, directing Takanuva right to the correct spot.) Admittedly, then finding the way back down would be tricky but maybe she left markings on the stone columns like breadcrumbs on the way up.

 

Toatapio, no, the passage was not vertical but sloped, and probably spiraling and the like as it got to the outer edge. It was designed to be passable on foot, but it would take a while (especially going uphill).

 

Watch MNOG or the "Toa Kaita vs. Manas" video of the Legend of Mata Nui game and you'll see that the Toa Mata descended into Mangaia via a long vertical tube.

 

This is weird as well though, since Kini-Nui is almost on Mata Nui's "nose", so going straight down would lead somewhere ABOVE Metru Nui instead next to the dome. This actually makes the sloping thing much more logical and explains a lot. I can't believe Hahli could actually run up that slope so fast and without tiring - after all she ascends the distance between Metru Nui and the stars above it. o_O Wow, she's physically fit.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Toatapio Nuva

[fishers64]

Watch MNOG or the "Toa Kaita vs. Manas" video of the Legend of Mata Nui game and you'll see that the Toa Mata descended into Mangaia via a long vertical tube.

 

This is weird as well though, since Kini-Nui is almost on Mata Nui's "nose", so going straight down would lead somewhere ABOVE Metru Nui instead next to the dome. This actually makes the sloping thing much more logical and explains a lot. I can't believe Hahli could actually run up that slope so fast and without tiring - after all she ascends the distance between Metru Nui and the stars above it. o_O Wow, she's physically fit.

 

Well, she is a star kolhii player.

 

MNOG? I thought that was a teleporter. Are you confusing the Toa's descent with Takua's later in the game? That's a vertical tube...

[airvortex]

Simple explanation: Takanuva was just bone lazy, plain and simple. After all, he had just defeated a rahkshi, and then decided he wanted a sweet ride so he built one for himself

 

Serious explanation: Hmm... no idea. Maybe he didn't know where in Mangaia Teridax was, so he thought to build a tracking device of sorts? As for Hahli getting back.... no idea on this one. Maybe she saw the way from the back, and so knew which way to go back?

[bonesiii]

Yeah, it's Takua's descent that looks like it's mostly vertical. That scene is clearly not completely canon (hopefully just compressed; the tube just got him through the impenetrable layer and he must have followed a sloping path before he actually entered the lair. However, that was Onu-Wahi so it was probably closer to the edge of the dome already (come to think of it, this would seem to give evidence for which side of the dome Mangai is on... wonder why I never noticed that lol) than Kini-Nui.

 

The Toa by contrast were clearly shown traveling "sideways" on quite a long journey. (Also that way in the books, though details of battles along the way are different.)

[airvortex]

Yeah, it's Takua's descent that looks like it's mostly vertical. That scene is clearly not completely canon (hopefully just compressed; the tube just got him through the impenetrable layer and he must have followed a sloping path before he actually entered the lair. However, that was Onu-Wahi so it was probably closer to the edge of the dome already (come to think of it, this would seem to give evidence for which side of the dome Mangai is on... wonder why I never noticed that lol) than Kini-Nui.

 

The Toa by contrast were clearly shown traveling "sideways" on quite a long journey. (Also that way in the books, though details of battles along the way are different.)

That makes more sense than what I put forward Although if that is the case, would that not then explain why they built the Ussanui? Primarily to track down Teridax since they were a little disoriented as to where he was? (due to being in a different location)

[fishers64]

^Makes sense, sort of. Although the Nuva were in Kini-Nui when they went down, so you'd think they would remember the way.

 

Well, the scene in MoL does have Takanuva travel sideways.

 

Also, for Hahli, is it possible that she just climbed out of the "Rahkshi exit"? After all, the Rahkshi probably would have to to make handholds and footholds to climb out, unless Rahkshi staffs are innately magnetic.

[Madara: Mangekyou Master]

Well, the Ussanui was powered and navigated by kraata. It was a fast way to go directly to Makuta. It's too bad that Takanuva didn't seem to know how to use the brakes. :/ That door.

[The Legendary TNT]

Yeah, it's Takua's descent that looks like it's mostly vertical. That scene is clearly not completely canon (hopefully just compressed; the tube just got him through the impenetrable layer and he must have followed a sloping path before he actually entered the lair. However, that was Onu-Wahi so it was probably closer to the edge of the dome already (come to think of it, this would seem to give evidence for which side of the dome Mangai is on... wonder why I never noticed that lol) than Kini-Nui.

 

The Toa by contrast were clearly shown traveling "sideways" on quite a long journey. (Also that way in the books, though details of battles along the way are different.)

Well, how canon are the BIONICLE: Legend of Mata Nui cutscenes? I know the game was canceled, but I've always headcanoned that the way all the locations were depicted was canon. I would post a link, buuuuut, they're on a famous site we can't mention.

[bonesiii]

 

Yeah, it's Takua's descent that looks like it's mostly vertical. That scene is clearly not completely canon (hopefully just compressed; the tube just got him through the impenetrable layer and he must have followed a sloping path before he actually entered the lair. However, that was Onu-Wahi so it was probably closer to the edge of the dome already (come to think of it, this would seem to give evidence for which side of the dome Mangai is on... wonder why I never noticed that lol) than Kini-Nui.

 

The Toa by contrast were clearly shown traveling "sideways" on quite a long journey. (Also that way in the books, though details of battles along the way are different.)

Well, how canon are the BIONICLE: Legend of Mata Nui cutscenes? I know the game was canceled, but I've always headcanoned that the way all the locations were depicted was canon. I would post a link, buuuuut, they're on a famous site we can't mention.

Well, having watched it, I didn't see any one-trip vertical journey from KN to the Mangai in that either so it really doesn't matter. It's not really canon since it wasn't published, but it can be considered as just another alternate version of the events along the way, just like the books have one and the MNOG has another.

 

And pretty sure it's on BS01 but maybe I'm remembering wrong.

[The Legendary TNT]

 

 

Bones:

TNT:

Well, having watched it, I didn't see any one-trip vertical journey from KN to the Mangai in that either so it really doesn't matter. It's not really canon since it wasn't published, but it can be considered as just another alternate version of the events along the way, just like the books have one and the MNOG has another.

 

And pretty sure it's on BS01 but maybe I'm remembering wrong.

It is, but it's linked to the site. It's the one where they bring the Makoki stones to Kini Nui and fight the Manas.

[Just A Dot]

The biggest reason is probably just because LEGO thought it'd be unfitting to release a single canister set, and this was when they cared enough about the story that they didn't want to make a huge beast and call it a Toa (lookin' at you, '08 Takanuva).

[Sir Kohran]

Toatapio, no, the passage was not vertical but sloped, and probably spiraling and the like as it got to the outer edge. It was designed to be passable on foot, but it would take a while (especially going uphill).

 

I don't agree. Viewing Mask of Light, the tunnel Takanuva travels from Kini Nui looks very much vertical.

 

 

1. Look, Takanuva enters the tunnel almost vertically. Arrows are mine, of course.

 

 

 

2. The blue energy trail lines from the Ussanui are completely straight, showing that its angle of descent is not changing. Note the sky visible through the entrance.

 

 

 

3. As Takanuva continues down, the energy trail lines remain straight.

 

 

 

4. It's only when he leaves the tunnel and returns to horizontal travel that the lines (now a bit faint) curve. Notice that the light from above is shining in at an almost vertical angle, and there's considerable distance between the cavern floor and the start of the tunnel itself in the ceiling.

 

Edited May 22, 2013 by Sir Kohran

[bonesiii]

Well obviously all of them have to go vertically down for a while (more or less) to get beneath the impenetrable layer. All the entrances I can think of do this.

 

But this is why I clarified single-trip vertical trips don't seem to happen, other than nearly Takua's in MNOG. The final scene you showed there would be once he's gotten into the giant robot itself, above the ceiling of the dome, and those pillars are the start of the giant maze/tunnel system that slowly goes down to the Mangai. If you keep watching, he then goes "sideways" (though really it's sloping, but gradually enough you wouldn't necessarily be able to tell) for quite a long time. The bend in the path is shown very clearly.

 

What is incorrect is to say that any portrayal clearly shows an unbroken sequence of starting in the middle of the camouflage island, going only vertically down, and being immediately outside the Mangai's direct entrance (as that would be impossible; that would put it in the middle of Metru Nui ).

[Athmos]

Looks like it's one of them plot holes to me. [/southernGrammar]

 

 

If you use the MoL's version of events, Hahli just couldn't have made it down that same tunnel and back up again. Well, she could make it down, but she'd be dead!

 

This is a really tricky answer, I can't even think of a way Hahli got back up. The Rahkshi handholds make sense to me, but then again, they could just fly up.

 

Jeez.

[Liopleurodon]

Hahli wall-jumped her way up there.

[Athmos]

Hahli wall-jumped her way up there.

 

She isn't Sam Fisher.

[bonesiii]

Looks like it's one of them plot holes to me. [/southernGrammar]

 

 

If you use the MoL's version of events, Hahli just couldn't have made it down that same tunnel and back up again. Well, she could make it down, but she'd be dead!

 

This is a really tricky answer, I can't even think of a way Hahli got back up. The Rahkshi handholds make sense to me, but then again, they could just fly up.

 

Jeez.

Actually, she was shown climbing up. Human rock climbers, who only live around 100 at most, can do that, so all the more I'd expect Matoran with memories going back 1000 years to know the skill. If you watch when the Ussanui goes down the vertical part there's a lot of texture (apparently geometric, so it might be intentionally designed to work as handholds without having a regular ladder-style handhold arrangement per se).

 

The last bit, maybe twenty feet or so, though, at the bottom of the vertical part is confusing. It's a hole that opens in a ceiling, with no obvious way that I can see for her to cross it. Going down, a Matoran should easily survive a careful landing just jumping, but how she got up I'm at a loss for.

 

 

Plus, the original problem I mentioned -- how fast she seemed to get there -- still stands. Although I'm thinking this might be a good thing for my purposes for that fanfic. If we presume there was much more to the Takanuva vs. Makuta battle, I get to avoid it being all about Koli.

[Athmos]

Oh, that's right! I remember that now.

 

Maybe it's lower then we actually think, the hole to the floor. They could have mis-represented it wrong.

[Sir Kohran]

Well obviously all of them have to go vertically down for a while (more or less) to get beneath the impenetrable layer. All the entrances I can think of do this.

 

But earlier, when Toatapio asked how Hahli could've made it up a vertical passage, you said: "the passage was not vertical but sloped, and probably spiraling and the like as it got to the outer edge. It was designed to be passable on foot, but it would take a while (especially going uphill)."

 

You can't have it both ways. Either the route to Makuta's lair has a vertical section or it doesn't, and the movie clearly shows that it does. In which case, Toatapio's question still stands.

 

 

I can't even think of a way Hahli got back up. The Rahkshi handholds make sense to me, but then again, they could just fly up.

 

Watching the part in Onu-Koro when they scale the heat-shaft(?), they seem to be able to climb up it without making any deep dents in the surface.

 

 

Actually, she was shown climbing up. Human rock climbers, who only live around 100 at most, can do that, so all the more I'd expect Matoran with memories going back 1000 years to know the skill.

 

But as a Ga-Matoran, Hahli's area of expertise would be sailing and swimming, not rock-climbing.

 

Plus human rock climbers have the benefits of ropes and picks, whereas Hahli was empty-handed.

 

 

Plus, the original problem I mentioned -- how fast she seemed to get there -- still stands.

 

Also, if Takanuva had been gone for a long time, surely the other Toa would've descended to look for him.

[bonesiii]

Ah, I see. I didn't notice he said after she reached the Kini-Nui underground. Mistook that for reached the Mangai. I was thrown by the "nothing but vertical" part.

 

Ah well, some usefulness came out of it.

 

But as a Ga-Matoran, Hahli's area of expertise would be sailing and swimming, not rock-climbing.

Yes, but IMO the Turaga would make sure (carrying forth a tradition I also strongly suspect from the ~100,000 years prior) that all of them were skilled at basic survival. Especially since they are more just trying to survive there than previously. The six Turaga would retain that kind of knowledge.

 

Of course, if there's easy handholds this isn't necessary; she could just figure it out herself.

 

Plus human rock climbers have the benefits of ropes and picks, whereas Hahli was empty-handed.

I was referring to hands-only rock climbing. The opening scene of one of the Mission Impossible movies (I forget which) is a good example.

 

Also, if Takanuva had been gone for a long time, surely the other Toa would've descended to look for him.

Good point. This kinda throws the "the battle was longer than it seemed" explanation into doubt. Maybe a bit of that and Hahli ran like the wind before getting to the vertical part?

[Makuta of Time]

But remember, flashes of light signified, that the scene jumped to Hahli talking to the others. So while the battle was going on, Hahli was talking to the others, and making a grand big speech that we all know and love.

[Toatapio Nuva]

Woooow, lots of posts. Too much to quote, I'll just wing it..

 

I get bonesii's point about the Toa Mata journey. They went a long way down vertically, then travelled a long way in the sloping maze system. That's how the Maze of Shadows depicts the Toa Metru's journey through the tunnels as well.

 

I finally understand the MNOG scene and such. I've neve runderstood it before so I'm really happy.

 

Then, to the parts that get confusing.

 

Takanuva flew to Mangaia with an Ussanui and then tells Hahli to return by foot (not very heroic - Takanuva wasn't thinking much about Hahli). I already said this, but Hahli would have to run an enormous distance, all the way up a slope. She's obviously trained a lot in Stamina in MNOG 2, but it still seems way too far-fetched. Well, with her stunning endurance, she reaches the part where she's supposed to climb up. How does she have the strength at this point to climb up again and how is she going to reach the hole in the ceiling? Apparently still kicking even with the run up above the stars, Hahli leaps up and wall-jumps or hand-climbs all the way up, which might take a lot out of her.

 

Geez, she really went through a lot of physical ordeal during that time. Maybe that was why she had to rest behind the scenes for the duration of the movie after the Kolhii tournament. She was preparing for the sports activity of her life. XD

 

Not to mention that she gows back down again with every single Matoran of the island. I would imagine not ALL of them are experts at rock climbing. Probably dozens of them just lost their handhold on the vertical walls of the tube and plunged down and died, but were cut out of the movie. They all did that and then raced to Mangaia, probably lead by Hahli who had just come from there, and the Toa Nuva who had already been to Mangaia as Toa Mata so they may have known the way as well.

 

Also, the scene in MOL where Takua travels upward through the mineshaft pipe, was due to him riding with Pewku. Ussal crabs are known to be able to climb vertically upwards, but not Matoran.

 

What can we conclude? Hahli is a superwoman in astonishing physical shape.

 

Has it ever been said where Mangaia actually is? Bonesii said it might be on the side of Onu-Wahi due to Takua's descent, but I remember someone saying at one point it was more near Po-Wahi.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Toatapio Nuva

[bonesiii]

Takanuva flew to Mangaia with an Ussanui and then tells Hahli to return by foot (not very heroic - Takanuva wasn't thinking much about Hahli). I already said this, but Hahli would have to run an enormous distance, all the way up a slope. She's obviously trained a lot in Stamina in MNOG 2, but it still seems way too far-fetched. Well, with her stunning endurance, she reaches the part where she's supposed to climb up. How does she have the strength at this point to climb up again and how is she going to reach the hole in the ceiling? Apparently still kicking even with the run up above the stars, Hahli leaps up and wall-jumps or hand-climbs all the way up, which might take a lot out of her.

Another related confusion for me goes to the answer to the first part -- the Ussanui apparently stopped working when it hit that door. The confusion is that Jaller's fragile mask was mounted to the front so you'd think it would have been smashed. There were some metal bars in like a framework thingy if I recall, so maybe those delivered force back to halt the engine while shielding the mask but it's still odd. Of course, maybe it wasn't broken but Hahli was simply too small to operate it.

 

I can believe that after all that emphasis on chores in MNOG2 (maybe destiny preparing her for this ordeal?) she could make the run, but I agree it should tire her out for the climb. At least legs and arms (to counter leg motion in a fast run you have to swing your arms for balance), though not the fingers. So IMO she would have to rest.

 

A way up has occurred to me now though -- maybe she gathered loose stones and carefully made a stable enough pile? And maybe this was a slow enough activity to count as a rest.

 

 

 

Also, for getting everybody back down, maybe Pohatu just made a giant spiral staircase?

 

I somewhat disagree about not all of them being "expert" rock climbers. All should be at least passable. Some like the Po-Matoran would be better at it, though. At the very least IMO nobody would lack the skill.

 

Also, the scene in MOL where Takua travels upward through the mineshaft pipe, was due to him riding with Pewku. Ussal crabs are known to be able to climb vertically upwards, but not Matoran.

Although, again, the scene where Hahli appears at the top of the hole makes it known that Matoran can do that. But I know what you mean -- in general, it's not confirmed.

 

Has it ever been said where Mangaia actually is? Bonesii said it might be on the side of Onu-Wahi due to Takua's descent, but I remember someone saying at one point it was more near Po-Wahi.

That was probably me. Onu-Wahi is right next to Po-Wahi so it isn't much of a stretch. I believe I theorized that the two most logical locations for it would be northernmost and southernmost because these make the design of the robot symmetrical. There's no real need for that. But if so, southernmost is taken by the path to Karzahni, so northernmost is left.

 

It could easily also be eastmost or westmost with symmetry not being important (the arrangement of lands in the torso aren't symmetric so it might not matter to the GBs -- heck, our insides aren';t all symmetric either). It may be implied to be one of those two by the end of MOL. Westmost would align it well with Onu-Wahi.

 

Either way, we don't actually know, far as I know.

[Sir Kohran]

Yes, but IMO the Turaga would make sure (carrying forth a tradition I also strongly suspect from the ~100,000 years prior) that all of them were skilled at basic survival. Especially since they are more just trying to survive there than previously.

 

 

I somewhat disagree about not all of them being "expert" rock climbers. All should be at least passable. Some like the Po-Matoran would be better at it, though. At the very least IMO nobody would lack the skill.

 

You're just assuming this. And even if rock climbing was taught, how useful would it be when it leaves you exposed and helpless on the surface, and a Nui Rama can just swoop in and grab or knock you off?

 

If any Matoran are good at rock climbing, it'd be the Ko-Matoran due to living on a mountain, and the Po-Matoran and Onu-Matoran due to rocks being all around them. I can't possibly see what use it'd be for the Ga-Matoran who spend their days on lilypads, beaches and boats.

 

And none of this explains how Hahli makes it from the floor of the cavern up into the tunnel, far above her reach.

 

 

I was referring to hands-only rock climbing. The opening scene of one of the Mission Impossible movies (I forget which) is a good example.

 

Human standards can't be applied to Matoran because our bodies are different to theirs. The human body has long thin limbs, ideal for the reaching and grasping needed to climb, which is presumably because of our distant origins as branch-grabbing tree-dwellers.

 

Matoran are smaller and have fairly short limbs; I think they'd find climbing quite difficult.

 

 

Not to mention that she gows back down again with every single Matoran of the island. I would imagine not ALL of them are experts at rock climbing.

 

You're incorrect on the first bit. Only the Toa and Turaga are shown with Hahli, and later Jaller when he's resurrected. The Matoran population are left on the surface.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Sir Kohran

[bonesiii]

You're just assuming this.

Theorizing -- as I said in a past topic where it came up, they lived for 100,000 years (some of them anyways, point is, they had way more time than our limited lifespans), and it seems virtually inevitable to me that people living that long would take time to learn basic survival skills. I mentioned raft-building originally. Rock climbing, basic medical knowledge, identifying safe foods to absorb energy from, and hut building could all be other examples. As I said, it's not essential here, but it would make sense.

 

And even if rock climbing was taught, how useful would it be when it leaves you exposed and helpless on the surface, and a Nui Rama can just swoop in and grab or knock you off?

It wouldn't. That doesn't prevent them from knowing it anyways in case they ever need to do it. Just as knowing how to make a raft wouldn't prevent you from being swallowed by a giant First Rahi of the sea, but it still would be wise to know how.

 

If any Matoran are good at rock climbing, it'd be the Ko-Matoran due to living on a mountain, and the Po-Matoran and Onu-Matoran due to rocks being all around them.

Yeah, they'd presumably be better from more regular practice in necessary circumtances.

 

 

I can't possibly see what use it'd be for the Ga-Matoran who spend their days on lilypads, beaches and boats.

Firstly this is looking at my theory backwards -- I'm saying all Matoran would (under the theory) have a principle that they should when time allows train in a variety of survival skills as preparation for possibly needing it in unforeseen circumstances. That applies to everybody.

 

Secondly, MNOG does portray the beach as surrounded by rock cliffs.

 

Human standards can't be applied to Matoran because our bodies are different to theirs.

Well, yes -- theirs are more durable, less fragile. So basically "anything we can do, they can do better." And they live much longer, so "they can do anything better than us." *ahem* I mean, they would have much more time to learn them.

 

Admittedly this applies better in terms of pure time-constraints to the pre-Cataclysm Matoran with ~100,000 years of memory versus the Mata Nui ones with only 1000, but again, survival skills are even more pressing here so I think they would definitely take the time, even if it's just one at a time.

 

The human body has long thin limbs, ideal for the reaching and grasping needed to climb, which is presumably because of our distant origins as branch-grabbing tree-dwellers.

Let's not get into controversial subjects that aren't allowed here -- suffice to say, yes, we have longer limbs. And if there's more of a gap between two handholds than a Matoran could reach, a human would be better at it, but since Hahli did climb up it follows that this must not have been the case in that instance. This reasoning doesn't argue against the wisdom of learning the skill in case it's both needed and possible in any given situation. By the same reasoning we could say humans shouldn't learn it because mountain goats have advantages we don't.

 

Let's keep in mind, while I'm at it, that if there's any metal or magnetic rock involved at any point (possible if the geometric shapes mean something was designed there, but that seems unlikely), the Matoran's minor magnetic hand power would help her along too. Doubt that applied here but who knows.

 

You're incorrect on the first bit. Only the Toa and Turaga are shown with Hahli, and later Jaller when he's resurrected. The Matoran population are left on the surface.

Good catch. I thought it was everybody too.

[ToaKapura1234]

But the Matoran had to go down eventually to return to Metru Nui.

[fishers64]

Actually, the whole thing with the Matoran population is inconsistent. Takanuva tells Hahli to summon all the Matoran, and presumably all of them follow her down (as evidenced by voices..."They will not leave!"), but then they just seem to vanish offscreen in the final scene.

[Toatapio Nuva]

 

Not to mention that she goes back down again with every single Matoran of the island. I would imagine not ALL of them are experts at rock climbing.

 

You're incorrect on the first bit. Only the Toa and Turaga are shown with Hahli, and later Jaller when he's resurrected. The Matoran population are left on the surface.

 

No, in official canon, all Matoran go. This is the way it is portrayed in the novel. It would have been the case in the movie as well, but the creators were too lazy to animate a gigantic crowd of Matoran all over Mangaia.

 

So in the story, all Matoran went down but in the movie they just didn't show it (which has always bothered me).

[Sir Kohran]

I'm saying all Matoran would (under the theory) have a principle that they should when time allows train in a variety of survival skills as preparation for possibly needing it in unforeseen circumstances. That applies to everybody.

 

Okay, let's assume Hahli had some rock climbing ability. Do you think that's enough to ascend up a very long tunnel in which one mistake would be immediately fatal and it is impossible to stop for rest?

 

 

Secondly, MNOG does portray the beach as surrounded by rock cliffs.

 

What reason would there be to scale them? All travel to and from Ga-Koro is done by boat. If you really needed to get past them, you'd use the waterfall cave that leads through them.

 

 

Well, yes -- theirs are more durable, less fragile.

 

Yes, but they're not impervious. Why else do we see them fleeing in terror so much?

 

 

Let's not get into controversial subjects that aren't allowed here -- suffice to say, yes, we have longer limbs.

 

Well, I mean in the context of humans in 'our' condition of having to survive on this planet, not anything about the very first humans ever or how they came to exist. I think we can agree that these early humans, before agriculture, would've climbed trees to reach fruit. (I admit they didn't dwell in them, though). The long-limbed would've been better climbers and so had healthier diets. The healthier are more likely to survive, so that may be how humans of today have quite long limbs.

 

Another benefit would be a greater reach with weapons in battle, granting the long-limbed a slightly better survival rate (which would apply throughout history until the rise of ranged weapons).

 

Not that this means anything to the discussion, of course.

 

 

But the Matoran had to go down eventually to return to Metru Nui.

 

Yes, but that happened once the Toa had control of the underground and it was safe, after the event (Takanuva/Toa confrontation with Makuta) that we're discussing.

 

 

Takanuva tells Hahli to summon all the Matoran, and presumably all of them follow her down (as evidenced by voices..."They will not leave!"), but then they just seem to vanish offscreen in the final scene.

 

I can't see any Matoran other than Hahli and Jaller at any point in the final scenes.

 

 

No, in official canon, all Matoran go. This is the way it is portrayed in the novel. It would have been the case in the movie as well, but the creators were too lazy to animate a gigantic crowd of Matoran all over Mangaia.

 

So in the story, all Matoran went down but in the movie they just didn't show it (which has always bothered me).

 

All of them? So we're meant to believe that the Takanuva/Makuta match lasted the whole time it took for Hahli to make her epic journey back up to the surface, the discussion/speech to occur, messengers to then be dispatched across the island, and all the Matoran to travel to the centre and somehow all descend underground?

 

I also agree that if the Matoran were meant to be present, not showing them was exceptional laziness.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Sir Kohran