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Protodermis?

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Proto: first. Dermis: Skin layer. Protodermis: First Layer. 

 

This makes sense because in MNOG, the protodermis layer was the last thing separating the Mangaia from Onu-Wahi. I never actually put two and two together... :(

 

That's one of the hints at Mata Nui's true nature which we didn't pick up on until much later. "Dermis" is entirely appropriate because the protodermis layer which the Onu-Matoran couldn't break through is implied to literally be the "skin" of the Mata Nui Robot. Of course, later on Protodermis began to be used for anything and everything... but at the time, the meaning was quite explicit.

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Formerly Lyichir: Rachira of Influence

Aanchir's and Meiko's brother

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Well, looks like I wasn't alone XD

 

 

Proto: first. Dermis: Skin layer. Protodermis: First Layer. 

 

This makes sense because in MNOG, the protodermis layer was the last thing separating the Mangaia from Onu-Wahi. I never actually put two and two together... :(

 

That's one of the hints at Mata Nui's true nature which we didn't pick up on until much later. "Dermis" is entirely appropriate because the protodermis layer which the Onu-Matoran couldn't break through is implied to literally be the "skin" of the Mata Nui Robot. Of course, later on Protodermis began to be used for anything and everything... but at the time, the meaning was quite explicit.

 

I didn't notice that either.

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It was the first thing that came to mind when I first saw the word, but since the context was the liquid that transformed the Toa Nuva, I assumed it was technobabble. Now I wonder if it could have been an Agori word, perhaps meaning (from) beneath the surface; it isn't a huge stretch to translate proto to from and dermis to surface, as Agori seems to mimic Latin.

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( The bunny slippers hiss and slither into the shadows. ) -Takuaka: Toa of Time

What if the Toa you know best were not destined to be? Interchange: The epic begins

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I never made this connection at all. But it is cool to see now. :)


Everyone is one choice away from being the bad guy in another person's story.


 


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Mind... blown...  :OMG: lol I looked up the definition for the fact awhile ago, but I never made that connection... 

 

and yeah, it was so much more cool when protodermis was this mysterious substance that no one knew anything about haha. ah the good old days...


 

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Proto: first. Dermis: Skin layer. Protodermis: First Layer. 

 

This makes sense because in MNOG, the protodermis layer was the last thing separating the Mangaia from Onu-Wahi. I never actually put two and two together... :(

Actually "dermis" more likely means simply "skin" or "life" here, and proto- can mean a state prior to becoming, so 'not-yet-alive'. But 'first' is a valid definition of 'proto', and 'skin layer' could loosely work for dermis.

 

However, the rest of this doesn't really work. Everything but the water and ice (and air) of Mata Nui was made of protodermis. That layer you're talking about isn't a "protodermis layer", it's a layer of a special type of protodermis, but not one that they referred to in short as protodermis. That was the giant's outer hull (the face), which got in the way of the Onu-Matoran mining the type that was called simply protodermis. (We don't know for sure what in MNOG1 this was meant to be, but in MNOG2 it's liquid (not energized) protodermis.) So it wasn't a protodermis layer, it was a layer blocking the mining of protodermis.

 

Still, it's valid to see a connection here. It was still the outer or most important (prime/first) layer of the giant robot itself, which is made of protodermis. So when the giant was in space, the hull would be the first layer of protodermis you would encounter if you tried to enter it.

 

But this probably wasn't what they had in mind; protodermis was called the "stuff of life." It seems that it was originally intended to be what the Matoran needed to survive; so "prerequisite for life" would be the translation here, or simply "food." Later on it seemed to morph into a definition more like "advanced molecule in a dormant state that when activated can become alive", or "proto-alive substance."

 

I'm not a big fan of how protodermis is used for everything. Only the important things like masks, disks, and parts of the Mata-Nui robot should be made of it.

Problem with that is that everything else would then presumably be much more susceptible to decay like normal matter. Everything inside the giant robot was important for its function somehow or another. (And personally it's much cooler to have a single substance that can imitate any type of matter, practically! It's a much bolder idea, far more fascinating.)

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Wasn't this one of the pieces of evidence used back in the day to support the idea of the MU being Mata Nui himself? I feel like I've heard this "revelation" before a lot in the past.


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That's actually really cool! I'm not a big fan of how protodermis is used for everything. Only the important things like masks, disks, and parts of the Mata-Nui robot should be made of it.

It's used for everything because it was the only material found inside Mata Nui's robot for them to use. Plus, it's also versatile enough to be used for almost everything.

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Proto: first. Dermis: Skin layer. Protodermis: First Layer. 

 

This makes sense because in MNOG, the protodermis layer was the last thing separating the Mangaia from Onu-Wahi. I never actually put two and two together... :(

Actually "dermis" more likely means simply "skin" or "life" here, and proto- can mean a state prior to becoming, so 'not-yet-alive'. But 'first' is a valid definition of 'proto', and 'skin layer' could loosely work for dermis.

 

However, the rest of this doesn't really work. Everything but the water and ice (and air) of Mata Nui was made of protodermis. That layer you're talking about isn't a "protodermis layer", it's a layer of a special type of protodermis, but not one that they referred to in short as protodermis. That was the giant's outer hull (the face), which got in the way of the Onu-Matoran mining the type that was called simply protodermis. (We don't know for sure what in MNOG1 this was meant to be, but in MNOG2 it's liquid (not energized) protodermis.) So it wasn't a protodermis layer, it was a layer blocking the mining of protodermis.

 

Still, it's valid to see a connection here. It was still the outer or most important (prime/first) layer of the giant robot itself, which is made of protodermis. So when the giant was in space, the hull would be the first layer of protodermis you would encounter if you tried to enter it.

 

But this probably wasn't what they had in mind; protodermis was called the "stuff of life." It seems that it was originally intended to be what the Matoran needed to survive; so "prerequisite for life" would be the translation here, or simply "food." Later on it seemed to morph into a definition more like "advanced molecule in a dormant state that when activated can become alive", or "proto-alive substance."

 

I'm not a big fan of how protodermis is used for everything. Only the important things like masks, disks, and parts of the Mata-Nui robot should be made of it.

Problem with that is that everything else would then presumably be much more susceptible to decay like normal matter. Everything inside the giant robot was important for its function somehow or another. (And personally it's much cooler to have a single substance that can imitate any type of matter, practically! It's a much bolder idea, far more fascinating.)

 

I think he's referring to the original Ancient Greek words 'protos' and 'derma', which do respectively mean 'first' and 'skin'. 'Protos' was adapted into english as 'proto-' which indeed means 'at a prior stage', but where did you get the meaning 'life' for 'dermis'? I only know the scientific terms for different skin layers (dermis, epidermis etc.).

 

We should separate in-story reasons and real life reasons: regarding the latter, I don't remember whether Protodermis was referred to as the 'stuff of life' in 2001 already, but either way I think it's very likely the story team at that time meant for Protodermis to be the substance the skin of Mata Nui was made of. There was no mention of liquid Protodermis in MNOLG1, the only thing the first part mentioned was an 'impenetrable layer of Protodermis'. I think Templar's idea was: the Onu-Koronans were mining for lightstones through the natural rock, until they hit a layer of Protodermis, the stuff they and all the other biomechanical characters were actually made of themselves. This layer was the 'skin' of Mata Nui, hence 'Protodermis'.

 

Regarding in-story reasons, I would just say it's a coincidence. It's true that Agori words seem to be based on Latin and in some cases Ancient Greek as well, but there is no in-story reason for that either (unless 2015 is going to reveal to us how the Agori are actually descendants of the Romans :D ). It seems more likely that the Great Beings named EP 'Protodermis' when they discovered it, which may mean something in the Agori language (or a hypothetical Great Being language?), or may mean nothing at all.

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I think he's referring to the original Ancient Greek words 'protos' and 'derma', which do respectively mean 'first' and 'skin'.

Not "skin layer"; that was part of my point. :) That would be the modern medical usage. :P

 

where did you get the meaning 'life' for 'dermis'

Skin is alive.

 

I don't remember whether Protodermis was referred to as the 'stuff of life' in 2001 already

Yes, MNOG, by (I believe it was) Whenua.

 

[Edit: Here's the quote:

 

“Onu-Koro is the wondrous under-city of Mata Nui,” Whenua beams. “Matoran come from near and far to trade at our great Market, and marvel at the work of our engineers. Stone dug from our quarries fuels the creations of Po-Koronan carvers. Protodermis, the stuff of life, is brought from deposits within the earth and traded amongst the Matoran. We also mine Lightstones, and many other precious resources.”

]

 

There was no mention of liquid Protodermis in MNOLG1, the only thing the first part mentioned was an 'impenetrable layer of Protodermis'.

See my previous post (quoted in yours) on that; you've got that a little backwards. :) (It was protodermis, but they didn't call it that.) Here's the actual quote:

 

"Turaga, the mining guilds have hit an underground rock layer that they cannot break through. We fear the protodermis will run out if we cannot continue our digging!"

 

I think Templar's idea was: the Onu-Koronans were mining for lightstones through the natural rock

No, the lightstone mine and the protodermis mine (or Great Mine; they probably mined other things besides "protodermis" there) were two separate places. Of course, lightstones are also made of protodermis, but are not one of the special types that are often abbreviated simply as "protodermis" (those are usually liquid proto, whether pure or raw, purified solid protodermis, or energized protodermis).

 

until they hit a layer of Protodermis, the stuff they and all the other biomechanical characters were actually made of themselves.

While this is a true statement, it's basically irrelevant since all the dirt and rock they were mining through was protodermis as well. The entire camouflage island was, other than the water (which came from Aqua Magna's atmosphere, clouds raining, ocean surrounding, etc.) and of course the air. Basically they were already mining one of the types that are commonly abbreviated "protodermis", and the question is which type. In MNOG1 it isn't specified, but based on MNOG2 it appears to be liquid (whether raw or purified is unclear, but definitely not energized).

Edited by bonesiii

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I think he's referring to the original Ancient Greek words 'protos' and 'derma', which do respectively mean 'first' and 'skin'.

Not "skin layer"; that was part of my point. :) That would be the modern medical usage. :P

 

where did you get the meaning 'life' for 'dermis'

Skin is alive.

 

I don't remember whether Protodermis was referred to as the 'stuff of life' in 2001 already

Yes, MNOG, by (I believe it was) Whenua.

 

[Edit: Here's the quote:

 

“Onu-Koro is the wondrous under-city of Mata Nui,” Whenua beams. “Matoran come from near and far to trade at our great Market, and marvel at the work of our engineers. Stone dug from our quarries fuels the creations of Po-Koronan carvers. Protodermis, the stuff of life, is brought from deposits within the earth and traded amongst the Matoran. We also mine Lightstones, and many other precious resources.”

]

 

There was no mention of liquid Protodermis in MNOLG1, the only thing the first part mentioned was an 'impenetrable layer of Protodermis'.

See my previous post (quoted in yours) on that; you've got that a little backwards. :) (It was protodermis, but they didn't call it that.) Here's the actual quote:

 

"Turaga, the mining guilds have hit an underground rock layer that they cannot break through. We fear the protodermis will run out if we cannot continue our digging!"

 

I think Templar's idea was: the Onu-Koronans were mining for lightstones through the natural rock

No, the lightstone mine and the protodermis mine (or Great Mine; they probably mined other things besides "protodermis" there) were two separate places. Of course, lightstones are also made of protodermis, but are not one of the special types that are often abbreviated simply as "protodermis" (those are usually liquid proto, whether pure or raw, purified solid protodermis, or energized protodermis).

 

until they hit a layer of Protodermis, the stuff they and all the other biomechanical characters were actually made of themselves.

While this is a true statement, it's basically irrelevant since all the dirt and rock they were mining through was protodermis as well. The entire camouflage island was, other than the water (which came from Aqua Magna's atmosphere, clouds raining, ocean surrounding, etc.) and of course the air. Basically they were already mining one of the types that are commonly abbreviated "protodermis", and the question is which type. In MNOG1 it isn't specified, but based on MNOG2 it appears to be liquid (whether raw or purified is unclear, but definitely not energized).

 

Ah, right. I didn't remember that correctly. Still, I don't think the story team had the entire nature of Protodermis and EP thought out back in 2001. I just got an idea: if the impenetrable rock layer was not referenced to as Protodermis in MNOLG, but actually the strata above the impenetrable rock layer was referenced to as such, then maybe the rock layer wasn't originally thought of as the skin at all, but actually as the skull of Mata Nui? Makes more sense IMO since small animals are able to dig through human skin, but not through human bone.

 

Yes, skin is alive (or dead, actually ;) ), but I think that's a little bit of a far-fetched connection. I don't see why (in-story) we should assume the GBs derived the term 'Protodermis' from Ancient Greek, or a hypothetical language in which the words for 'first' and 'skin' are similar to those in Ancient Greek. There are so many possibilities for what 'proto' and 'dermis' could mean, for example if they were to mean 'life' and 'stuff' we'd have a literal translation of 'the stuff of life'. Plus, we don't even know if (in-story) the word consists of two morphemes 'proto' and 'dermis', for all we know it might be 'protoder' and 'mis', or 'pro', 'toderm' and 'is'. Or maybe it's simply one morpheme 'protodermis', that doesn't consists of any other morphemes in the language the GBs used to name the stuff. We simply don't know.

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Yeah, I didn't quite get it until a couple of days ago when I was playing MNOG. I saw the conversation between Whenua and Onepu(I think) and it all just clicked. Man, they had been setting up the Giant Robot thing for a while...

Protodermis, Pre/first-skin/layer/whatever

that fact that they had mentioned that it was similar to the shell of an ussal crab,

and the fact that there was that hatch that led to that room that seemed kind of out of place on Mata Nui, you know, the metal looking room with the floating golden Hau and all the holographic glyphs...


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