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People that didn't need to die

Zaktan Carapar Blah

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#1 Offline Makuta DUSt

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Posted Aug 14 2012 - 03:58 PM

Who do you think died just for shock, pointlessness or another reason?I felt that Zaktan, Telluris and Carapar all died just to show how super serious the villain was, yo for nothing but shock value. That's just me, there could be something about it I'm not seeing. What do you think?

Edited by Toa of the Nova Corps, Aug 15 2012 - 12:46 PM.

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#2 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Aug 14 2012 - 04:32 PM

Well this is kinda a pet peeve of mine. It's realistic that characters die sometimes in a story about the struggle against evil. I reject the premise that deaths in such a story are for shock value. It's more about keeping the suspense up. :)Also I strongly believe that if a character comes into a situation where they logically would die, the author should work hard to avoid "rescue mechanisms" unless those do also make sense in the world.I have yet to see any death in Bionicle that breaks those rules. Really, too often IMO characters have been unrealistically rescued by obvious authorial guiding (though this hasn't really been that bad in the more canon media).

Edited by bonesiii, Aug 14 2012 - 06:46 PM.

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#3 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted Aug 14 2012 - 05:35 PM

Zaktan. There was no need to kill him...
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#4 Offline Katuko

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Posted Aug 14 2012 - 05:52 PM

Carapar, at least, died attacking a being he did not understand the power of. Zaktan was shattered because he had dangerous knowledge, so I don't feel his death was unnecessary. I felt it was a cheap way of resolving the "someone's gonna die"-vision, though, as I had expected someone who were present when the vision triggered (the Hagah) to die. I'm thinking Norik, saving his comrades by temporarily keeping the lava away with heat absorption or something. Miserix bailing them out felt a bit awkward. A "rescue mechanism", as bonesiii calls it. I also felt that the Piraka being mutated was a cheap way of removing them completely. Suddenly their appearance, powers and unique tools were all gone. Not quite a kill, but very close to it story-wise.I remember that when Botar died, people were a bit annoyed by his death only being mentioned in a short sentence and that he rather quickly got a replacement in the Order from the same species. Because of that, he might as well not have died at all, but it served as a reminder of the strength of a Makuta.Reading Dark Mirror, I enjoyed all the deaths that happened quickly, if only because it showed how a real war between such powerful beings would go. Still, I'm glad it was not "canon" per se, because those were major characters being snuffed without much build-up. If it happened in the main universe, I'd at least want a paragraph devoted to each death, just to show that the characters weren't disposable just like that.The most pointless death I can think of would be Tren Krom. Karzahni was all right, because it was clear that his murder was being pinned on Lesovikk, and he had already been broken down in other stories. Tren Krom, on the other hand, went from being a powerful being and to jelly in the woods way too quickly. If he had been murdered on his island either when the MU fell or just beforehand, then good, but he was actually unbound only to serve as a relatively minor plot device.When it comes to "rescue mechanisms", one I'm actually happy for is Matoro using the Ignika to teleport his team back to Metru Nui. While Jaller's decision to blast everything was a desperate move that might have punched through the feeling of utter helplessness they might have felt, I think everyone dying would have been worse than what happened. Made Matoro's character better as well.
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#5 Offline Tekulo in the Green

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Posted Aug 14 2012 - 05:55 PM

Matoro. He totally could have lived with no serious consequences to the main events of the story at all. Though, I think Botar. His role was pretty much "Do things by the book. The book is law. LAAAAWWW! I am totally powerful and invinci-" and then he died. Only, mind you, to be instantly replaced with yet another drone of Mata Nui's military brainwashing team within the universe. Poor Teridax, trying to liberate the matoran of their tyrant who cared so little for them. (Totally how it happened)While it may have added in the perfect flair of poorly-written drama to the story (not at all as it just poked my annoyance bear until it let out a rawr), it appeared to serve little point. =/Edit: And Katuko already beat me to the punch. XD

Edited by Tekulo: Toa of the Breeze, Aug 14 2012 - 05:56 PM.

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#6 Offline Anti Nui

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Posted Aug 14 2012 - 06:12 PM

The Telluris thing was just really stupid.So was Botar's death. The really anti-climactic way he just suddenly died just really ruined his character, in my opinion. Especially when he gets instantly replaced by some unnamed member of his species that has absolutely no personality or much further involvement in the story.Most of the other deaths I'm fine with (Matoro, Carapar, etc.).
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#7 Offline Spinjitzu Master

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Posted Aug 14 2012 - 06:30 PM

Telluris' death was uneeded. I have never really enjoyed the character...but his passing was worthless and...maybe a little saddening.
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#8 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Aug 14 2012 - 06:50 PM

Would you guys say it's more about the way the story handled the deaths than the deaths themselves? Like, no apparent time to focus on the emotion of it and show that it was serious? I can get that.
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#9 Offline Tekulo in the Green

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Posted Aug 14 2012 - 07:12 PM

In Botar's case, I don't think it was just about the time limit. His character didn't seem that developed to begin with, so I didn't really shed a tear. I was more like "Okay... so that random generic dude died... big whoop..." Not to mention, why bother replacing him if that type of character was never going to be mentioned ever again? I mean, it makes sense within the universe and all, but why even draw the attention of the reader for that? In that case, why kill him off at all? He/His replacement isn't going to be seen ever again anyway. It's almost like, in the terms of the story, that the guy replacing Botar died along with Botar himself. Seeing as these are fictional characters, I'd say that statement isn't too far off from the truth itself. I think Podu had a larger role than his replacement, quite frankly. XD (And the fans generally like Podu to boot).I just saw absolutely no reason to kill what would soon be a dead character in terms of the story and then replace him. For me, at least, there was no benefit, no emotion and simply nothing interesting from it whatsoever. =/ If you want to kill someone, fine, but at least show him... ugh, I dunno, saving a Muaka kitten from a generic disaster or villain or whatnot. People with souls tend to like that stuff. Instead we just lost a generic Mata Nui drone brainwashing guy that failed to convert Axonn into his brain washing machine. Don't even get me started on the brain dryer. In my opinion, that death was not worth mentioning at all, really. =/
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#10 Offline Podu

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Posted Aug 14 2012 - 07:43 PM

In Botar's case, I don't think it was just about the time limit. His character didn't seem that developed to begin with, so I didn't really shed a tear. I was more like "Okay... so that random generic dude died... big whoop..." Not to mention, why bother replacing him if that type of character was never going to be mentioned ever again? I mean, it makes sense within the universe and all, but why even draw the attention of the reader for that? In that case, why kill him off at all? He/His replacement isn't going to be seen ever again anyway. It's almost like, in the terms of the story, that the guy replacing Botar died along with Botar himself. Seeing as these are fictional characters, I'd say that statement isn't too far off from the truth itself. I think Podu had a larger role than his replacement, quite frankly. XD (And the fans generally like Podu to boot).I just saw absolutely no reason to kill what would soon be a dead character in terms of the story and then replace him. For me, at least, there was no benefit, no emotion and simply nothing interesting from it whatsoever. =/ If you want to kill someone, fine, but at least show him... ugh, I dunno, saving a Muaka kitten from a generic disaster or villain or whatnot. People with souls tend to like that stuff. Instead we just lost a generic Mata Nui drone brainwashing guy that failed to convert Axonn into his brain washing machine. Don't even get me started on the brain dryer. In my opinion, that death was not worth mentioning at all, really. =/

I would like to see Podu replacing Botar's replacement :P

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#11 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Aug 14 2012 - 07:46 PM

Botar's death was okay, just a little sped-through. He had such a strong character, I really would have liked to see him be mentioned or something again.Also, Nocturn. I don't even know in what media he died; I just read he did on BS01.
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#12 Offline Tahu5181

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Posted Aug 14 2012 - 09:32 PM

Who do you think died just for shock, pointlessness or another reason?I felt that Zaktan, Telluris and Carapar all died just to show how super serious the villain was, yo for nothing but shock but value. That's just me, I could be missing something. What do you think?

Botar, definitely. Immediately after he was killed (by Icarax, I think) he was replaced by someone that was virtually identical to him.

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#13 Offline Sumiki

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Posted Aug 14 2012 - 09:41 PM

I didn't even realized people cared about Botar until he died, and I didn't realize people are still miffed that he did die. He had such relatively little storyline impact that, though his character might have been strong - he didn't get enough time to develop it. To me, his death is more about wasted potential than anything else. Plus, the whole "get another of the same species" seemed completely unnecessary, and ended up making his death seem even more useless.Matoro's death was a lot better handled because it showed just how much sacrifice was needed in order to save the universe. Matoro was well-liked, and his character had a lot of depth from the start. Of all the Matoran in the 2001 story, only Kapura was more mysterious and intriguing. For those aspects, both characters embodied the year's storyline, which was all about mystery and intrigue. We learned more about Matoro, why he did what he did and had to do what he had to do, so his sacrifice was completely keeping in character. Plus, it rendered the Ignika more credibility as an object; it was not something to collect like the Toa were in a morbid Mario game anymore.Matoro's death was not all in vain, though - it was already established that the Ignika killed whoever used it, and its selection of Matoro as "keeper" of its power should have been an indicator of his doom. Matoro was the inspiration for Toa Ignika, as the Mask had found a sort of role model in Matoro. Emulating its hero, the Mask then sacrificed its body to jolt Mata Nui awake - but then that begs the obvious question of why it didn't create a body whenever it needed to be used, so as to not waste a perfectly good Toa?Buuuuuuuut getting back on topic, I don't think many of the 2008 Makuta needed to croak. Sure, Teridax slaughtered them and Teridax is incredibly evil blah blah blah. Would it have hurt the story if, say, Krika made it out? He had more potential than Botar, and his morals were only explored for a few pages when he had a conversation with Gali. When he was alive, I found him to be a "catwoman figure" - someone whose morals are never fully bad and never fully good, sort of like the Catwoman of the Batman universe. Unfortunately, he died - along with every single one of the bland and wholly uninteresting Makuta. His survival would have entailed an interesting twist to Reign of Shadows, and Greg could have levied that opportunity to really get inside his head.
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#14 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Aug 14 2012 - 10:04 PM

Matoro's death was not all in vain, though - it was already established that the Ignika killed whoever used it, and its selection of Matoro as "keeper" of its power should have been an indicator of his doom. Matoro was the inspiration for Toa Ignika, as the Mask had found a sort of role model in Matoro. Emulating its hero, the Mask then sacrificed its body to jolt Mata Nui awake - but then that begs the obvious question of why it didn't create a body whenever it needed to be used, so as to not waste a perfectly good Toa?

If I recall, the Ignika was only able to jolt Mata Nui awake in 2008 by using the Codrex's systems, which Matoro couldn't access. Along that train of thought, Matoro was using the mask to save Mata Nui from death; the Great Spirit was still in comatose afterward. The Ignika was truly reawakening Mata Nui. The Toa from Jovan's team was doing the same thing Matoro was, keeping Mata Nui alive instead of bringing him back to consciousness from a sleeping state.

Buuuuuuuut getting back on topic, I don't think many of the 2008 Makuta needed to croak. Sure, Teridax slaughtered them and Teridax is incredibly evil blah blah blah. Would it have hurt the story if, say, Krika made it out? He had more potential than Botar, and his morals were only explored for a few pages when he had a conversation with Gali. When he was alive, I found him to be a "catwoman figure" - someone whose morals are never fully bad and never fully good, sort of like the Catwoman of the Batman universe. Unfortunately, he died - along with every single one of the bland and wholly uninteresting Makuta. His survival would have entailed an interesting twist to Reign of Shadows, and Greg could have levied that opportunity to really get inside his head.

True, but at least, unlike the other Makuta, Krika didn't die generically in the Energy Storms. Gorast killing him somewhat reinforced the idea that the Brotherhood was totally blind to the real extent of Teridax's plan.

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#15 Offline -Jaller-

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Posted Aug 15 2012 - 02:22 PM

I agree that Caper and Botor did not need to die, but Zaktan I see why. He was probly the only one who knew to stop Teridax, so that ment he had to be killed so he did not risk Teridax's plan.
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#16 Offline Toa Zaz

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Posted Aug 15 2012 - 03:20 PM

I think Tren Krom's death would, had Greg Farshtey not abandoned the serials, been unnecessary simply because he was an interesting character who could potentially have been used more, but in general, I think Bionicle could use more deaths. The problem with all these "epic battles" or whatever is that they're kind of boring because people hardly ever die. If they started killing off characters, the suspense would increase dramatically. Also, often times either character's deaths are handled badly (Nocturne's death is just mentioned in passing, and the Karda Nui Makuta could have just teleported out) or we haven't emotionally invested in the characters. I personally didn't care much when Botar died, we'd just met him.
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#17 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Aug 16 2012 - 12:58 AM

. . . and the Karda Nui Makuta could have just teleported out) or we haven't emotionally invested in the characters.

I think that the reason the Makuta didn't teleport out was because they either believed Teridax would save them, or that they could fight it off.

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#18 Offline Festus Flare

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Posted Aug 16 2012 - 02:29 AM

I have lost faith in posting in this topic, everyone already posted everything I wanted to say.Anyway, I was pretty ticked off with the death of Krika. He was much more fleshed out than the other Makuta, so he could have been expanded. Maybe he could even end up as an ally to the Toa, who knows? I'm pretty sure that more and more people were supposed to die if Greg actually finished the serials, so this story wouldn't just be about people saying Botar, Carapar, Nocturne and co.
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#19 Offline Katuko

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Posted Aug 16 2012 - 05:40 AM

I think that the reason the Makuta didn't teleport out was because they either believed Teridax would save them, or that they could fight it off.

At the point where the energy storms were approaching, they realized that they had been left to die. Mutran was stupid enough to fly closer, but at least Bitil tried to get away. He did not teleport, though, which is indeed a little strange, for despite the Karda Nui shields blocking teleportation in/out to anyone not powerful enough to overcome them, he could at least have teleported close to the outer wall and the entrance where the Makuta first entered.

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#20 Offline Podu

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Posted Aug 16 2012 - 06:49 AM

I think that the reason the Makuta didn't teleport out was because they either believed Teridax would save them, or that they could fight it off.

At the point where the energy storms were approaching, they realized that they had been left to die. Mutran was stupid enough to fly closer, but at least Bitil tried to get away. He did not teleport, though, which is indeed a little strange, for despite the Karda Nui shields blocking teleportation in/out to anyone not powerful enough to overcome them, he could at least have teleported close to the outer wall and the entrance where the Makuta first entered.

Bitil did try to teleport away; but the storm interefered with his teleportation and he couldn't get far.

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#21 Offline Katuko

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Posted Aug 16 2012 - 07:22 AM

Aha. I only red the comic version, so I guess some details were missing.
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#22 Offline Toa Smoke Monster

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Posted Aug 16 2012 - 09:35 AM

I think that Carapar and Krika should've survived. They were such good characters, IMO. I also would've like to have seen at least a couple other Karda Nui Makuta survive too. Like Icarax and possibly Vamprah.
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#23 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Aug 16 2012 - 11:38 AM

I think that the reason the Makuta didn't teleport out was because they either believed Teridax would save them, or that they could fight it off.

At the point where the energy storms were approaching, they realized that they had been left to die. Mutran was stupid enough to fly closer, but at least Bitil tried to get away. He did not teleport, though, which is indeed a little strange, for despite the Karda Nui shields blocking teleportation in/out to anyone not powerful enough to overcome them, he could at least have teleported close to the outer wall and the entrance where the Makuta first entered.

Bitil did try to teleport away; but the storm interefered with his teleportation and he couldn't get far.

From how Bitil was taking about becoming Teridax's lieutenant, it kind of seemed like he as in denial that Teridax betrayed him. And teleportation could have been one of the Rahkshi powers the Pit mutagen altered.

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#24 Offline fishers64

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Posted Aug 18 2012 - 02:42 PM

I think that Carapar and Krika should've survived. They were such good characters, IMO. I also would've like to have seen at least a couple other Karda Nui Makuta survive too. Like Icarax and possibly Vamprah.

No, I liked the fact that the Karda Nui Makuta died - it underscored the fact that Teridax wasn't taking any threats to power. Although it would have been catastrophically amusing if Icarax had survived - but, there was no living way that Teridax would have let him live. It just doesn't make any sense. As for Botar's Replacement, I like him. There's plenty of uses for a teleporting less-than-experienced individual. :) The only being who didn't need to die in the story was Jaller. Fortunately, the writers of the story agreed with me, and corrected their little mistake. :)

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#25 Offline Flux: The Explorer

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Posted Aug 18 2012 - 02:47 PM

I'm saying that Antroz and Icarax shouldn't have died. It would be great if we could see them again or at least, mentioned. That would be fine.
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#26 Offline Sundowner

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Posted Aug 18 2012 - 03:12 PM

I think that Carapar and Krika should've survived. They were such good characters, IMO. I also would've like to have seen at least a couple other Karda Nui Makuta survive too. Like Icarax and possibly Vamprah.

No, I liked the fact that the Karda Nui Makuta died - it underscored the fact that Teridax wasn't taking any threats to power. Although it would have been catastrophically amusing if Icarax had survived - but, there was no living way that Teridax would have let him live. It just doesn't make any sense.

I kinda have to disagree, if he didn't want any threats to power why didn't he kill Miserix instead of putting him in an illusion? He didn't have a problem with killing his fellow Makuta besides he could finish the work Krika failed to do.

As for Botar's Replacement, I like him. There's plenty of uses for a teleporting less-than-experienced individual. :)

The with Botar's replacement was there wasn't much difference between him and Botar, heck he didn't even get a proper name.I do agree that some of the Kardi Nui Makuta survive specifically Krika and Bitil (internal conflicts are fun) but I also wish Ancient had lived. Killing him to keep his secret doesn't make that much sense seeing as he never revealed his name, though in fairness The Shadowed One may have been on to him. Him and Guardian he just died to show Teridax was evil though he really didn't do much.

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#27 Offline fishers64

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Posted Aug 18 2012 - 03:41 PM

I think that Carapar and Krika should've survived. They were such good characters, IMO. I also would've like to have seen at least a couple other Karda Nui Makuta survive too. Like Icarax and possibly Vamprah.

No, I liked the fact that the Karda Nui Makuta died - it underscored the fact that Teridax wasn't taking any threats to power. Although it would have been catastrophically amusing if Icarax had survived - but, there was no living way that Teridax would have let him live. It just doesn't make any sense.

I kinda have to disagree, if he didn't want any threats to power why didn't he kill Miserix instead of putting him in an illusion? He didn't have a problem with killing his fellow Makuta besides he could finish the work Krika failed to do.

As for Botar's Replacement, I like him. There's plenty of uses for a teleporting less-than-experienced individual. :)

The with Botar's replacement was there wasn't much difference between him and Botar, heck he didn't even get a proper name.

Putting Miserix in an illusion (and later teleporting him out of the universe) was easier than killing him. And besides, teleporting him out of the universe probably would have killed him (no air) had it not been for Lewa and Vezon. Also, Miserix would probably view death as a relief at this point - he really is miserable and has little reason to live. Botar's Replacement would naturally be less experienced than Botar. That's the difference. And what's the point of naming him?

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#28 Offline Sundowner

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Posted Aug 18 2012 - 04:13 PM

I think that Carapar and Krika should've survived. They were such good characters, IMO. I also would've like to have seen at least a couple other Karda Nui Makuta survive too. Like Icarax and possibly Vamprah.

No, I liked the fact that the Karda Nui Makuta died - it underscored the fact that Teridax wasn't taking any threats to power. Although it would have been catastrophically amusing if Icarax had survived - but, there was no living way that Teridax would have let him live. It just doesn't make any sense.

I kinda have to disagree, if he didn't want any threats to power why didn't he kill Miserix instead of putting him in an illusion? He didn't have a problem with killing his fellow Makuta besides he could finish the work Krika failed to do.

As for Botar's Replacement, I like him. There's plenty of uses for a teleporting less-than-experienced individual. :)

The with Botar's replacement was there wasn't much difference between him and Botar, heck he didn't even get a proper name.

Putting Miserix in an illusion (and later teleporting him out of the universe) was easier than killing him. And besides, teleporting him out of the universe probably would have killed him (no air) had it not been for Lewa and Vezon. Also, Miserix would probably view death as a relief at this point - he really is miserable and has little reason to live.Botar's Replacement would naturally be less experienced than Botar. That's the difference. And what's the point of naming him?

I really think it wouldn't be out of Teridax's league to kill Miserix, he killed Guardian using the earth underneath him. Besides correct me if I'm wrong but I read Makuta didn't need to breath including Miserix (he could break his armor forcing his gas out into space) so shooting him into space would be pointless. You may have a point with a disillusioned Miserix, but Miserix probably wouldn't put up a fight if he's thinking that.Botar's replacement needs a name because he sounds like some random mook who serves to be shot and it makes hard to feel anything for him IMO. Yes he would be slightly less experienced but the keyword is slighty so slightly it's the width of a human hair. I've viewed Botar's replacement as sorta pointless the only differences I can make out are he's thin, lean, and gold armor wearing. He does everything Botar did, so much I think you could remove "'s replacement" and hardly notice any difference.

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#29 Offline fishers64

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Posted Aug 18 2012 - 04:35 PM

I think that Carapar and Krika should've survived. They were such good characters, IMO. I also would've like to have seen at least a couple other Karda Nui Makuta survive too. Like Icarax and possibly Vamprah.

No, I liked the fact that the Karda Nui Makuta died - it underscored the fact that Teridax wasn't taking any threats to power. Although it would have been catastrophically amusing if Icarax had survived - but, there was no living way that Teridax would have let him live. It just doesn't make any sense.

I kinda have to disagree, if he didn't want any threats to power why didn't he kill Miserix instead of putting him in an illusion? He didn't have a problem with killing his fellow Makuta besides he could finish the work Krika failed to do.

As for Botar's Replacement, I like him. There's plenty of uses for a teleporting less-than-experienced individual. :)

The with Botar's replacement was there wasn't much difference between him and Botar, heck he didn't even get a proper name.

Putting Miserix in an illusion (and later teleporting him out of the universe) was easier than killing him. And besides, teleporting him out of the universe probably would have killed him (no air) had it not been for Lewa and Vezon. Also, Miserix would probably view death as a relief at this point - he really is miserable and has little reason to live.Botar's Replacement would naturally be less experienced than Botar. That's the difference. And what's the point of naming him?

I really think it wouldn't be out of Teridax's league to kill Miserix, he killed Guardian using the earth underneath him. Besides correct me if I'm wrong but I read Makuta didn't need to breath including Miserix (he could break his armor forcing his gas out into space) so shooting him into space would be pointless. You may have a point with a disillusioned Miserix, but Miserix probably wouldn't put up a fight if he's thinking that.Botar's replacement needs a name because he sounds like some random mook who serves to be shot and it makes hard to feel anything for him IMO. Yes he would be slightly less experienced but the keyword is slighty so slightly it's the width of a human hair. I've viewed Botar's replacement as sorta pointless the only differences I can make out are he's thin, lean, and gold armor wearing. He does everything Botar did, so much I think you could remove "'s replacement" and hardly notice any difference.

Space is a vacuum, and there's air inside Miserix's armor. Said armor would explode, and the Makuta's essence would likely disperse. And Miserix is considerably ticked off, wanting to kill Teridax (blasted Terry's Core Processor machine, irrespective of the fate of the universe). Basically, he just wants to kill Teridax or die trying, and either outcome would likely satisfy him (which is why Teridax didn't kill him).As for Botar's Replacement, to each his own. I just like the being, and refuse to associate my feelings about Botar's death (indifferent, whatever) with him. Now that would be a reason to give him a name, just so everyone would stop looking at him and complaining about Botar's death. :)

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#30 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Aug 18 2012 - 06:14 PM

I thought Teridax didn't kill Miserix because it entertained him more than simply killing him would, and he didn't consider it too much of a risk. As for Botar's death, it did serve to show how dangerous Icarax was (though we also got the message when he defeated the Toa Nuva). I think Greg didn't have time to give his replacement more character. Maybe he never would have, even given time, because that character wasn't important to the story.
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#31 Offline Timelady Gallade

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Posted Sep 17 2012 - 01:50 PM

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#32 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Sep 17 2012 - 06:12 PM

People who didn't need to die:-Jaller and Takanuva, in 2003's Mask of Light. Their respective resurrections just seemed a little forced (though Jaller's death did give Takanuva motivation, and was a great development point in Legends 5 three years later). I prefer the novelization's version of Takanuva's death: as Teridax was bigger, his physical form took up more of the combined mass, and so he was crushed before Takanuva was, splitting them. Something like that, anyhow.-Zaktan. I understand it, but it's a cheap way of resolving that "somebody's gonna die" prophecy to have the body-less mass of prodotites be killed instead.-Come to think of it, all the Piraka. They all had unique powers, tools, and skills, and turning them all into random snakes was really "killing off" their unique characters and replacing them with... swimming snakes. Joy.-Botar. Why in the world he was killed, only to be replaced by an unnamed member of the same species with the same powers doing the same job, I have no idea."But oh, Icarax is -" you might begin. Should you do so, I would remind you that there are a number of more-developed characters he could have killed to show his power and barbarianism. Botar? There was just no point.People who did need to die:-Matoro. His sacrifice was required to save the universe, and his entire development arc for two years straight was leading up to his heroic death. Writing-wise, I don't see how he could not have died without cheapening his sacrifice.As a note to those who still think he should be alive: my personal headcanon is that his life force and spirit are is still contained within Mata Nui/the Ignika (as he merged his life force with the Ignika's power to revive Mata Nui), which spurred both to do truly heroic things. This is based on something Hahli said in Legends 8, and it does make a certain amount of sense.-Sidorak. The fact that his death was indirectly sought by both sides of the battle made it unanimous: he was going down. His death also lead to Roodaka's little power struggle with Vakama, allowing the Hordika to "defeat" her.-Lhikan. His entire life (as far as we saw it in 2004) was about heroic sacrifice: he sacrificed his life as a Toa (and his freedom) to save the Matoran, and he sacrificed his life for Vakama. Plus, Jaller wearing Lhikan's mask was just a neat revelation, and really helped to tie together the '03 and '04 storylines.
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#33 Offline ankyfdarkness

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Posted Sep 17 2012 - 07:08 PM

Good topic. I've got a lot to say on this matter.The Piraka being mutated into sea snakes and effectively "dying" makes me cry to this day. I felt that there were so many ways to write them out of the story in a more meaningful way. What really rubs me is how they even had their own book (Legacy of Evil) that really gave us a great look into who they were as characters and fleshed out their back-story. More so than the 2008 Makuta or the Barraki that followed in later years.Botar was another idiotic death. I would have been okay with his death. But then he got replaced by another one of his species? What the heck? I would have loved to see how the OoMN was affected by such a key member's death. Instead we find out that Botar is just a pawn in a long list of expendables. "Lost one? Well, no problem! We have plenty more!" Unbelievably stupid.The 2008 Makuta all dying seemed wrong. If even one of them survived to later have an impact on the story I would have been happy. Krika, of course, was just another wast of a great character. I would have loved to explore his motives some more. But even if someone like Bitil had survived it would have been interesting. He could have led a resistance against Teridax or something.That's it. I'm okay with most other deaths.Matoro's death was beyond pivotal. I think the story is much better off because of his death.Lhikan is in a similar boat.Carapar and Nocturne make sense. People die from random events sometimes.Icarax and Gorast are exceptions to what I said above as they both had pretty neat deaths. Icarax tried to be a boss and got canned for it and I love how Gorast was just standing there in front of the storm, marveling at the cruelty of Teridax's plot. Spoke a lot about her character as she still respected Teridax even when he betrayed her.If anything, more Toa needed to die. Norik or any of his team should have died doing something heroic.While I'm not super happy with Zaktan's death, it's still a lot better than the fate of the rest of the Piraka.The story was just building up to Sidorak's death.Anyways, just my two cents.
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#34 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Sep 17 2012 - 11:13 PM

The 2008 Makuta all dying seemed wrong. If even one of them survived to later have an impact on the story I would have been happy. Krika, of course, was just another wast of a great character. I would have loved to explore his motives some more. But even if someone like Bitil had survived it would have been interesting. He could have led a resistance against Teridax or something.

I think it really showed how merciless Teridax was. No one - not even his most ardent loyalists - could be allowed to survive. I do appreciate that we got to see how some of the individual Makuta, like Mutran, reacted. It's very similar to Chancellor Palpatine enacting Order 66.

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#35 Offline fishers64

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Posted Sep 18 2012 - 01:00 AM

-Jaller and Takanuva, in 2003's Mask of Light. Their respective resurrections just seemed a little forced (though Jaller's death did give Takanuva motivation, and was a great development point in Legends 5 three years later). I prefer the novelization's version of Takanuva's death: as Teridax was bigger, his physical form took up more of the combined mass, and so he was crushed before Takanuva was, splitting them. Something like that, anyhow.-Zaktan. I understand it, but it's a cheap way of resolving that "somebody's gonna die" prophecy to have the body-less mass of prodotites be killed instead.-Come to think of it, all the Piraka. They all had unique powers, tools, and skills, and turning them all into random snakes was really "killing off" their unique characters and replacing them with... swimming snakes. Joy.

- Takanuva didn't die IMO. There's a difference between fusing with Makuta and dieing. - Zaktan knew about Teridax's plan, so it would make sense to kill him off.- I think it was a neat way of showing the punishments of the 777 stairs. "He who enters this place with evil intent will suffer the consequences." type thing. Also, loved the scene where the Mahri fight the Piraka snakes...actually a nice way to bring back old characters instead of leaving them in the dust. :)But I guess that's all my opinion, though.

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#36 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Sep 18 2012 - 12:56 PM

-Jaller and Takanuva, in 2003's Mask of Light. Their respective resurrections just seemed a little forced (though Jaller's death did give Takanuva motivation, and was a great development point in Legends 5 three years later). I prefer the novelization's version of Takanuva's death: as Teridax was bigger, his physical form took up more of the combined mass, and so he was crushed before Takanuva was, splitting them. Something like that, anyhow.-Zaktan. I understand it, but it's a cheap way of resolving that "somebody's gonna die" prophecy to have the body-less mass of prodotites be killed instead.-Come to think of it, all the Piraka. They all had unique powers, tools, and skills, and turning them all into random snakes was really "killing off" their unique characters and replacing them with... swimming snakes. Joy.

- Takanuva didn't die IMO. There's a difference between fusing with Makuta and dieing.- Zaktan knew about Teridax's plan, so it would make sense to kill him off.- I think it was a neat way of showing the punishments of the 777 stairs. "He who enters this place with evil intent will suffer the consequences." type thing. Also, loved the scene where the Mahri fight the Piraka snakes...actually a nice way to bring back old characters instead of leaving them in the dust. :)But I guess that's all my opinion, though.

Still, when Takutanuva got crushed, Takanuva (as part of him) died.

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#37 Offline thoron

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Posted Sep 18 2012 - 06:06 PM

zatkan, carapar, mutran, and krika :(

Edited by thoron, Sep 18 2012 - 06:07 PM.

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#38 Offline TAK The Voyager

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Posted Sep 19 2012 - 06:16 AM

I know they didn't "die", but I wasn't a fan of how the Piraka were resolved (besides Zaktan). First Snakes, then they're fused?TAK
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#39 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Sep 20 2012 - 08:03 PM

people who were disintegrated like Teridax

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Edited by Meta-Mind, Sep 20 2012 - 08:03 PM.

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#40 Offline toa kopaka4372

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Posted Sep 20 2012 - 08:44 PM

people who were disintegrated like Teridax

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Edited by toa kopaka4372, Sep 20 2012 - 08:44 PM.

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