Fry Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Proto: first. Dermis: Skin layer. Protodermis: First Layer. This makes sense because in MNOG, the protodermis layer was the last thing separating the Mangaia from Onu-Wahi. I never actually put two and two together... Quote Visit my Bionicle 2001 site recreation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
25K Now! Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Huh, I didn't catch that either. Quote http://vimeo.com/198967785 BZPRPG Profiles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomreviewerbros Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Yeah this never occurred to me Quote Go check out our Youtube channel! We review BIONICLE and other LEGO related items! https://www.youtube.com/user/RandomReviewerBros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyichir Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Proto: first. Dermis: Skin layer. Protodermis: First Layer. This makes sense because in MNOG, the protodermis layer was the last thing separating the Mangaia from Onu-Wahi. I never actually put two and two together... That's one of the hints at Mata Nui's true nature which we didn't pick up on until much later. "Dermis" is entirely appropriate because the protodermis layer which the Onu-Matoran couldn't break through is implied to literally be the "skin" of the Mata Nui Robot. Of course, later on Protodermis began to be used for anything and everything... but at the time, the meaning was quite explicit. 2 Quote Formerly Lyichir: Rachira of Influence Aanchir's and Meiko's brother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banana Gunz Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 That's actually really cool! I'm not a big fan of how protodermis is used for everything. Only the important things like masks, disks, and parts of the Mata-Nui robot should be made of it. 1 Quote tumblr: it's a lovely place to be if you've gone madflickr: mah yummy gross pics mmmPew Pew Pew Pew Pew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fry Posted September 20, 2014 Author Share Posted September 20, 2014 Well, looks like I wasn't alone XD Proto: first. Dermis: Skin layer. Protodermis: First Layer. This makes sense because in MNOG, the protodermis layer was the last thing separating the Mangaia from Onu-Wahi. I never actually put two and two together... That's one of the hints at Mata Nui's true nature which we didn't pick up on until much later. "Dermis" is entirely appropriate because the protodermis layer which the Onu-Matoran couldn't break through is implied to literally be the "skin" of the Mata Nui Robot. Of course, later on Protodermis began to be used for anything and everything... but at the time, the meaning was quite explicit. I didn't notice that either. Quote Visit my Bionicle 2001 site recreation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishers64 Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Oh wow, now that makes sense. I always was puzzled as to why they used something related to skin, where that came from. Quote Hero Factory RPG | Bionicle Mafia XXIX: Storyline & Theories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidhiki of the Shadows Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Oh man! That foreshadowing! I had no realized that. Clever! -NotS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Smith Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 My dad pointed this out to me the first time he heard the term, but I still didn't pick up on what it was hinting at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akavakaku Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 It was the first thing that came to mind when I first saw the word, but since the context was the liquid that transformed the Toa Nuva, I assumed it was technobabble. Now I wonder if it could have been an Agori word, perhaps meaning (from) beneath the surface; it isn't a huge stretch to translate proto to from and dermis to surface, as Agori seems to mimic Latin. 1 Quote ( The bunny slippers hiss and slither into the shadows. ) -Takuaka: Toa of TimeWhat if the Toa you know best were not destined to be? Interchange: The epic begins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Windrider- Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Probably something for the S&T folks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pohatu: Uniter of Stone Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Wow. I actually knew that Protodermis meant first skin/first layer ever since I found out about it. But now I understand why. Quote I HATE SCORPIOS ~Pohatu Master of Stone, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toa Smoke Monster Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I never made this connection at all. But it is cool to see now. Quote Everyone is one choice away from being the bad guy in another person's story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TERIDAX941 Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Mind... blown... lol I looked up the definition for the fact awhile ago, but I never made that connection... and yeah, it was so much more cool when protodermis was this mysterious substance that no one knew anything about haha. ah the good old days... Quote Formerly Iron_Man5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mask Of Speed Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I kind of figured this out in science class. I didn't really get the "skin" part until reading the replies. Quote For the BEST BIONICLE reviews, podcasts, and more, Check out: http://youtube.com/thethreevirtues [flash=250,100]http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/sprxtrerme/BANNERS/thornax.swf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonesiii Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Proto: first. Dermis: Skin layer. Protodermis: First Layer. This makes sense because in MNOG, the protodermis layer was the last thing separating the Mangaia from Onu-Wahi. I never actually put two and two together... Actually "dermis" more likely means simply "skin" or "life" here, and proto- can mean a state prior to becoming, so 'not-yet-alive'. But 'first' is a valid definition of 'proto', and 'skin layer' could loosely work for dermis. However, the rest of this doesn't really work. Everything but the water and ice (and air) of Mata Nui was made of protodermis. That layer you're talking about isn't a "protodermis layer", it's a layer of a special type of protodermis, but not one that they referred to in short as protodermis. That was the giant's outer hull (the face), which got in the way of the Onu-Matoran mining the type that was called simply protodermis. (We don't know for sure what in MNOG1 this was meant to be, but in MNOG2 it's liquid (not energized) protodermis.) So it wasn't a protodermis layer, it was a layer blocking the mining of protodermis. Still, it's valid to see a connection here. It was still the outer or most important (prime/first) layer of the giant robot itself, which is made of protodermis. So when the giant was in space, the hull would be the first layer of protodermis you would encounter if you tried to enter it. But this probably wasn't what they had in mind; protodermis was called the "stuff of life." It seems that it was originally intended to be what the Matoran needed to survive; so "prerequisite for life" would be the translation here, or simply "food." Later on it seemed to morph into a definition more like "advanced molecule in a dormant state that when activated can become alive", or "proto-alive substance." I'm not a big fan of how protodermis is used for everything. Only the important things like masks, disks, and parts of the Mata-Nui robot should be made of it.Problem with that is that everything else would then presumably be much more susceptible to decay like normal matter. Everything inside the giant robot was important for its function somehow or another. (And personally it's much cooler to have a single substance that can imitate any type of matter, practically! It's a much bolder idea, far more fascinating.) Quote The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive): Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants My Bionicle Fanfiction (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pomegranate Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Wasn't this one of the pieces of evidence used back in the day to support the idea of the MU being Mata Nui himself? I feel like I've heard this "revelation" before a lot in the past. Quote . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailli Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 That's actually really cool! I'm not a big fan of how protodermis is used for everything. Only the important things like masks, disks, and parts of the Mata-Nui robot should be made of it.It's used for everything because it was the only material found inside Mata Nui's robot for them to use. Plus, it's also versatile enough to be used for almost everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toatapio Nuva Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I thought this had been common knowledge for years until I saw this topic and its responses... Quote My BZPRPG profiles - Viima, Lai Lai Kirgan, Jarkale, Hile, Tuli + Kavala, Khervos, Thira Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thormen Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Proto: first. Dermis: Skin layer. Protodermis: First Layer. This makes sense because in MNOG, the protodermis layer was the last thing separating the Mangaia from Onu-Wahi. I never actually put two and two together... Actually "dermis" more likely means simply "skin" or "life" here, and proto- can mean a state prior to becoming, so 'not-yet-alive'. But 'first' is a valid definition of 'proto', and 'skin layer' could loosely work for dermis. However, the rest of this doesn't really work. Everything but the water and ice (and air) of Mata Nui was made of protodermis. That layer you're talking about isn't a "protodermis layer", it's a layer of a special type of protodermis, but not one that they referred to in short as protodermis. That was the giant's outer hull (the face), which got in the way of the Onu-Matoran mining the type that was called simply protodermis. (We don't know for sure what in MNOG1 this was meant to be, but in MNOG2 it's liquid (not energized) protodermis.) So it wasn't a protodermis layer, it was a layer blocking the mining of protodermis. Still, it's valid to see a connection here. It was still the outer or most important (prime/first) layer of the giant robot itself, which is made of protodermis. So when the giant was in space, the hull would be the first layer of protodermis you would encounter if you tried to enter it. But this probably wasn't what they had in mind; protodermis was called the "stuff of life." It seems that it was originally intended to be what the Matoran needed to survive; so "prerequisite for life" would be the translation here, or simply "food." Later on it seemed to morph into a definition more like "advanced molecule in a dormant state that when activated can become alive", or "proto-alive substance." I'm not a big fan of how protodermis is used for everything. Only the important things like masks, disks, and parts of the Mata-Nui robot should be made of it.Problem with that is that everything else would then presumably be much more susceptible to decay like normal matter. Everything inside the giant robot was important for its function somehow or another. (And personally it's much cooler to have a single substance that can imitate any type of matter, practically! It's a much bolder idea, far more fascinating.) I think he's referring to the original Ancient Greek words 'protos' and 'derma', which do respectively mean 'first' and 'skin'. 'Protos' was adapted into english as 'proto-' which indeed means 'at a prior stage', but where did you get the meaning 'life' for 'dermis'? I only know the scientific terms for different skin layers (dermis, epidermis etc.). We should separate in-story reasons and real life reasons: regarding the latter, I don't remember whether Protodermis was referred to as the 'stuff of life' in 2001 already, but either way I think it's very likely the story team at that time meant for Protodermis to be the substance the skin of Mata Nui was made of. There was no mention of liquid Protodermis in MNOLG1, the only thing the first part mentioned was an 'impenetrable layer of Protodermis'. I think Templar's idea was: the Onu-Koronans were mining for lightstones through the natural rock, until they hit a layer of Protodermis, the stuff they and all the other biomechanical characters were actually made of themselves. This layer was the 'skin' of Mata Nui, hence 'Protodermis'. Regarding in-story reasons, I would just say it's a coincidence. It's true that Agori words seem to be based on Latin and in some cases Ancient Greek as well, but there is no in-story reason for that either (unless 2015 is going to reveal to us how the Agori are actually descendants of the Romans ). It seems more likely that the Great Beings named EP 'Protodermis' when they discovered it, which may mean something in the Agori language (or a hypothetical Great Being language?), or may mean nothing at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonesiii Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 (edited) I think he's referring to the original Ancient Greek words 'protos' and 'derma', which do respectively mean 'first' and 'skin'.Not "skin layer"; that was part of my point. That would be the modern medical usage. where did you get the meaning 'life' for 'dermis'Skin is alive. I don't remember whether Protodermis was referred to as the 'stuff of life' in 2001 alreadyYes, MNOG, by (I believe it was) Whenua. [Edit: Here's the quote: “Onu-Koro is the wondrous under-city of Mata Nui,” Whenua beams. “Matoran come from near and far to trade at our great Market, and marvel at the work of our engineers. Stone dug from our quarries fuels the creations of Po-Koronan carvers. Protodermis, the stuff of life, is brought from deposits within the earth and traded amongst the Matoran. We also mine Lightstones, and many other precious resources.”] There was no mention of liquid Protodermis in MNOLG1, the only thing the first part mentioned was an 'impenetrable layer of Protodermis'.See my previous post (quoted in yours) on that; you've got that a little backwards. (It was protodermis, but they didn't call it that.) Here's the actual quote: "Turaga, the mining guilds have hit an underground rock layer that they cannot break through. We fear the protodermis will run out if we cannot continue our digging!" I think Templar's idea was: the Onu-Koronans were mining for lightstones through the natural rockNo, the lightstone mine and the protodermis mine (or Great Mine; they probably mined other things besides "protodermis" there) were two separate places. Of course, lightstones are also made of protodermis, but are not one of the special types that are often abbreviated simply as "protodermis" (those are usually liquid proto, whether pure or raw, purified solid protodermis, or energized protodermis). until they hit a layer of Protodermis, the stuff they and all the other biomechanical characters were actually made of themselves.While this is a true statement, it's basically irrelevant since all the dirt and rock they were mining through was protodermis as well. The entire camouflage island was, other than the water (which came from Aqua Magna's atmosphere, clouds raining, ocean surrounding, etc.) and of course the air. Basically they were already mining one of the types that are commonly abbreviated "protodermis", and the question is which type. In MNOG1 it isn't specified, but based on MNOG2 it appears to be liquid (whether raw or purified is unclear, but definitely not energized). Edited September 21, 2014 by bonesiii Quote The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive): Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants My Bionicle Fanfiction (Google Drive folder, eventually planned to have PDFs of all of it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thormen Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I think he's referring to the original Ancient Greek words 'protos' and 'derma', which do respectively mean 'first' and 'skin'.Not "skin layer"; that was part of my point. That would be the modern medical usage. where did you get the meaning 'life' for 'dermis'Skin is alive. I don't remember whether Protodermis was referred to as the 'stuff of life' in 2001 alreadyYes, MNOG, by (I believe it was) Whenua. [Edit: Here's the quote: “Onu-Koro is the wondrous under-city of Mata Nui,” Whenua beams. “Matoran come from near and far to trade at our great Market, and marvel at the work of our engineers. Stone dug from our quarries fuels the creations of Po-Koronan carvers. Protodermis, the stuff of life, is brought from deposits within the earth and traded amongst the Matoran. We also mine Lightstones, and many other precious resources.”] There was no mention of liquid Protodermis in MNOLG1, the only thing the first part mentioned was an 'impenetrable layer of Protodermis'.See my previous post (quoted in yours) on that; you've got that a little backwards. (It was protodermis, but they didn't call it that.) Here's the actual quote: "Turaga, the mining guilds have hit an underground rock layer that they cannot break through. We fear the protodermis will run out if we cannot continue our digging!" I think Templar's idea was: the Onu-Koronans were mining for lightstones through the natural rockNo, the lightstone mine and the protodermis mine (or Great Mine; they probably mined other things besides "protodermis" there) were two separate places. Of course, lightstones are also made of protodermis, but are not one of the special types that are often abbreviated simply as "protodermis" (those are usually liquid proto, whether pure or raw, purified solid protodermis, or energized protodermis). until they hit a layer of Protodermis, the stuff they and all the other biomechanical characters were actually made of themselves.While this is a true statement, it's basically irrelevant since all the dirt and rock they were mining through was protodermis as well. The entire camouflage island was, other than the water (which came from Aqua Magna's atmosphere, clouds raining, ocean surrounding, etc.) and of course the air. Basically they were already mining one of the types that are commonly abbreviated "protodermis", and the question is which type. In MNOG1 it isn't specified, but based on MNOG2 it appears to be liquid (whether raw or purified is unclear, but definitely not energized). Ah, right. I didn't remember that correctly. Still, I don't think the story team had the entire nature of Protodermis and EP thought out back in 2001. I just got an idea: if the impenetrable rock layer was not referenced to as Protodermis in MNOLG, but actually the strata above the impenetrable rock layer was referenced to as such, then maybe the rock layer wasn't originally thought of as the skin at all, but actually as the skull of Mata Nui? Makes more sense IMO since small animals are able to dig through human skin, but not through human bone. Yes, skin is alive (or dead, actually ), but I think that's a little bit of a far-fetched connection. I don't see why (in-story) we should assume the GBs derived the term 'Protodermis' from Ancient Greek, or a hypothetical language in which the words for 'first' and 'skin' are similar to those in Ancient Greek. There are so many possibilities for what 'proto' and 'dermis' could mean, for example if they were to mean 'life' and 'stuff' we'd have a literal translation of 'the stuff of life'. Plus, we don't even know if (in-story) the word consists of two morphemes 'proto' and 'dermis', for all we know it might be 'protoder' and 'mis', or 'pro', 'toderm' and 'is'. Or maybe it's simply one morpheme 'protodermis', that doesn't consists of any other morphemes in the language the GBs used to name the stuff. We simply don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Undertaken Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Yeah, I didn't quite get it until a couple of days ago when I was playing MNOG. I saw the conversation between Whenua and Onepu(I think) and it all just clicked. Man, they had been setting up the Giant Robot thing for a while...Protodermis, Pre/first-skin/layer/whateverthat fact that they had mentioned that it was similar to the shell of an ussal crab,and the fact that there was that hatch that led to that room that seemed kind of out of place on Mata Nui, you know, the metal looking room with the floating golden Hau and all the holographic glyphs... Quote -END OF LINE- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuvaTube Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Huh...never noticed that one...Cool! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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