450 replies to this topic

[Erebus]

Updated 10/17 (see below)

The Red Star does not only help Mata Nui with his liftoff.

Some of you have already guessed it. Others will be shocked by it. Find out the true nature of the Red Star and why Mavrah is still alive by clicking the spoiler tag:

Spoiler

Mata Nui was supposed to be a self-sustaining system, and obviously, certain individuals played very important roles in maintaining it. In addition, it necessarily had finite resources for producing new beings to replace any lost in accidents, etc. Hence the red star -- a being who died inside Mata Nui would be teleported to the red star where their essence would be transplanted into another body and they would be sent back. Unfortunately, as with so many things related to Mata Nui's construction, it didn't work very well. The teleporting "to" worked but the teleporting "from" didn't, so a lot of newly revived dead folk were stuck on the satellite with no way to get back home.

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UPDATE [10/4]: Why are some beings alive, like Mavrah, and others are not?

Spoiler

Matoro and the Makuta did not come back, for a simple reason. None of them have bodies anymore. The body is what is teleported up (which is why you don't see BIONICLE graveyards) and then either repaired or a new one is made to house the consciousness. If the body has been utterly destroyed, there is nothing to work with.

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UPDATE [10/7]: What is the nature of the lightning that struck 6 Matoran?

Spoiler

There was never supposed to be Matoran outside the robot. The Toa Mata failed to wake Mata Nui on time, and thus there were still Matoran outside on the islands of Mata Nui and Voya Nui. The lightning acts like a fail-safe to create new Toa outside the robot in case they are ever needed.

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UPDATE [10/10]:

Spoiler

Fulfilling your destiny does not mean you cannot be revived. We have seen plenty of characters fulfill their destiny and yet live on. The point of the red star is basically that even Mata Nui is not self-sustaining if it loses too many beings (to an accident, say), the same way you could not survive if you lost too many blood cells without replacing them. We haven't SEEN Lhikan alive again, that doesn't mean he isn't.

Spoiler

Rahi can be revived, since they play a role in Mata Nui's functioning as well.

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UPDATE [10/17]:

Spoiler

The Kanohi Tryna, the Mask of Reanimation, brings you back right away with all the damage -- red star takes a good deal longer, but repairs the damage.

Spoiler

Does the Red Star always work in reviving every dead being with an intact body or is it selective about what it chooses to resurrect? Rahi too?

No, it works in general, everyone has some role to play in the universe.

Spoiler

Jaller was revived by Takutanuva rather than the Red Star simply because "there would be nothing movie-level dramatic about him beaming out and then beaming back in later on."

[ bones: Spoiler tags no longer needed.]

Edited by Erebus, Oct 17 2012 - 08:10 PM.

[Dorek]

Good times with that podcast. All I can say it, I'm surprised it wasn't guessed at more, considering the dialogue in the last chapter.

[The Iron Toa]

Spoiler

What?! So no one was supposed to die permanently in the Matoran Universe? If every MU inhabitant that ever died was reborn in the Red Star, it would sure be crowded. Maybe they didn't all get reembodied? And does it apply to Makuta too? And were no new personalities supposed to form? If so, why did they?

[Sumiki]

Spoiler

So that means Krika is still alive.

*fistpump*

Also maybe Matoro too? Might be cool to see him back. Unless all of his life force was used up and he's not in there.

[Dorek]

That's part of what we discussed on the podcast.

Spoiler

My running theory is that those who have fulfilled their destinies don't need to get reincarnated. So, if we sort of stretch the mantra of "dying IS destiny", then people like Matoro and Lhikan don't need to come back, but someone like Jovan or (obviously) Mavrah would be reincarnated.

Edited by VIII. Axel, Sep 18 2012 - 02:02 PM.

[Cosmic Titan]

Spoiler

Let me guess and then the Kestora killed them all off again.

So Teridax and all the other Makuta are there too? That idea just makes me sick to my stomach. It just seems like the story is falling apart.

And it gives reason to why Velika is now killing off people because now they should stay dead now that they outside of the Matoran Universe.

Edited by Cosmic Titan, Sep 18 2012 - 02:06 PM.

[bonesiii]

Ha ha, exactly as I thought.

Spoiler

FTR, we're still considering the standard list of dead guys dead for the Memoirs contest; thought dead at story present, in other words. Also we don't really know that all of them went there, do we?

Edited by bonesiii, Sep 18 2012 - 02:37 PM.

[Kaitholas Cage]

Oh yeah. More story stuff ftw.

Spoiler

I'm gonna say that Teridax couldn't be resurrected by this method, seeing as his body was kind of too big to be transported to the red star. Krika, unfortunately was faded out of existence, which I take to mean his essence was dissipated.

Edited by Toa Kaithas, Sep 18 2012 - 02:30 PM.

[Magnetic Vorahk]

WAAAAAAATTTT

Spoiler

So I guess the Memoirs of the Dead contest is pointless now, huh?

Edited by bonesiii, Sep 18 2012 - 03:21 PM.
Spoiler tags are your friend. And see my post above. -bones

[Taipu1]

Spoiler

Disappointed by that update. The idea that dead characters can just be brought back to life, in fact were meant to be, just kind of spoils things. I mean what about Jaller's body? Could there theoretically be two Jallers? And surely this could be a medium by which Teridax could return, which I for one, don't want to see happen. He had an incredible run, but everyone should meet an end.

[Dorek]

People should really listen to the podcast. We bring up most of the stuff people are worried about here.

[The Iron Toa]

Is there a transcript? I'm listening to it, but I prefer to read.

[Ballom]

Spoiler

So I guess this image is a bit of a moot point.


Anyway, interesting. I like the idea that once a destiny is fulfilled, said character doesn't reincarnate. That would leave a number of characters such as Teridax safely dead.

Incidentally, does this mean the energy that made the Matoran into the Inika could have been from the Toa Energy of a previously dead, reincarnated Toa on the Red Star, like Jovan?

~B~

Edited by Ballom, Sep 18 2012 - 03:28 PM.

[bonesiii]

Spoiler

I mean what about Jaller's body? Could there theoretically be two Jallers?

I'm presuming the spirit eventually disconnects from their masks and goes to there. Or any other explanation producing an answer of no. So there would be a time in which mask wearers could be revived in-universe, saving the need for the teleporter. Other beings would go immediately.

Or perhaps only bodies that are going to be unaccounted for can be teleported, to preserve secrecy. All kindsa ways to be a no.

Here's an attempt at an answer. Only bodies + masks would be teleported there, if the being wore a mask, and only bodies unseen by others. In the cases of Lhikan and Jaller, living people were looking at the bodies and took away the masks. In Jaller's case this was for his good, but creepily this would mean Vakama kinda killed Lhikan a second time by taking the mask away lol. The only example we have is Mavrah, who was lost from sight with both body and mask, so there's some evidence.

That would also rule out Teridax as no body remained, not even antidermis as it was instantly spread out enough to dissipate him permanently.

If the body thing isn't necessary, though, then it -is- possible Teridax went there, but that doesn't necessarily mean they would have put him into a new body. There could be standards you have to qualify for to be revived, and the worst supervillain ever probably wouldn't qualify.

BTW, I second IT's request: any chance of a transcript for that podcast? Reading FTW.

Edited by bonesiii, Sep 18 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[Electric Turahk]

Soooo glad we can finally talk about this.

I'd also echo that you should listen to the podcast a bit. We really did bring up a lot of points revolving around it. (Skip to ~50 minutes in if you want just this discussion.)

Spoiler

Or just use my reasoning that they're all little programs you don't want to just lose.

I still want to know who might be excluded from the revival... Did anybody successfully get revived? Do we know them?

Why create such an insanely massive plot-destroying device?

...

Yeah that's pretty much the only one I care about.

Oh, and the Kestora were just the workers. The staff making sure you got where you needed to be or what have you. Or, of course, when that failed, keeping you safely locked up it seems...

Spoiler

So I guess this image is a bit of a moot point.


Anyway, interesting. I like the idea that once a destiny is fulfilled, said character doesn't reincarnate. That would leave a number of characters such as Teridax safely dead.

Incidentally, does this mean the energy that made the Matoran into the Inika could have been from the Toa Energy of a previously dead, reincarnated Toa on the Red Star, like Jovan?

~B~

I brought that up specifically in the podcast. I rather agree with that line of thought, though.

~|ET|~

Edited by Electric Turahk, Sep 18 2012 - 03:42 PM.

[Maphrox: Toa of Polygons]

Spoiler

So basically, if a character was cool enough he was supposed to be immortal.

Wat.

[bonesiii]

Spoiler

So basically, if a character was cool enough he was supposed to be immortal.

Wat.

It might kinda produce that effect, huh?

But seriously, I think it's probably more like a selective partial reboot system. We have to keep in mind the GBs saw all of these things as technology, albeit using life as part of it, and the reason a particular personality would be created by them or Mata Nui, etc. is presumably to meet a need -- to fulfill a function -- within the whole.

So it's like if a computer runs too long and part of its code gets corrupted, and if enough of it happens the whole system can crash. We reboot computers all the time to repair such things. Except this would just reboot the individual units so the system as a whole does not need to shut down (the whole of the Great Spirit). Especially fits with the original Mata Nui sleeping story centering, and the reveal in 2004-ish that Matoran had to populate the city in order for him to awaken.

[Kahi]

Spoiler

My running theory is that those who have fulfilled their destinies don't need to get reincarnated. So, if we sort of stretch the mantra of "dying IS destiny", then people like Matoro and Lhikan don't need to come back, but someone like Jovan or (obviously) Mavrah would be reincarnated.

But, that doesn't really make any sense, does it? Why wouldn't they "reincarnate" them? Yes they have achieved their primary purpose but why does that mean that their data must be thrown away if others' data are also being used?

In fact, why must their data be used at all if the Red Star can just create new bodies to begin with? There has to be a vanilla version of the Matoran OS. If it can just create new bodies, why not just load that version and beam it down?

Regardless, again, all this seems is just another stab at a plot twist to keep characters thought dead to be alive. There is no reason for data of characters like Mavrah to be kept while data of Matoro or Lhikan were to be thrown away. I would honestly not be surprised if Greg was going to use it to bring back one or both of those characters, or even just other prominent characters that were thought to be dead. Kind of cheapens their death, honestly, knowing that they didn't even die.

[toa kopaka4372]

Spoiler

My thoughts on this twist are mixed. Whether or not I like it depends on whose still alive and who is not.

Now, since the essence of the deceased person is needed to bring them back, then that means that Teridax, all the Karda Nui Makuta, and Matoro are permanently dead. The rest is uncertain. I personally hope that very few deceased characters are still alive; it would really cheapen death in the MU in general if no one died. Does that mean that everyone who died in the Matoran civil War, the Toa-Dark Hunter War etc. is still alive? I hope not. Moreso, if people who died suddenly came back, wouldn't their friends recognize them and wonder why they're back? Since Mavrah knew who he was, I assume the revived remember their identities, so wouldn't they talk about what happened? If so, how would the Red Star's purpose remain a secret?

There are a lot of things that need to be explained.

[Lewa Krom]

Spoiler

Wait. So does this mean that everyone Velika is killing is going to the Red Star? It would explain why Tren Krom sent Pohatu and Kopaka that image of the Red Star, but Tren Krom and Karzahni weren't in the Red Star. But if that is what Velika is doing, then Velika doesn't want Tren Krom and Karzahni and "the powers that be" to be dead, but rather to be in the Red Star. But then would Velika have figured out the problem with it not sending them back to the MU? If he did, then he'd want them to be trapped there for whatever reason. If he didn't, is he trying to send them back to the Matoran Universe even though it's destroyed? [/rampant speculation that relies on the assumption that being killed still sends you to the Red Star even though they aren't dying in the MU]

[bonesiii]

Spoiler

Regardless, again, all this seems is just another stab at a plot twist to keep characters thought dead to be alive. There is no reason for data of characters like Mavrah to be kept while data of Matoro or Lhikan were to be thrown away. I would honestly not be surprised if Greg was going to use it to bring back one or both of those characters, or even just other prominent characters that were thought to be dead. Kind of cheapens their death, honestly, knowing that they didn't even die.

We don't know if there's no such reason, though. The only one we know for sure was revived is Mavrah.

Also, this is revealing that Mavrah did die, so they all died, but didn't stay dead, like Jaller. I agree it kind of cheapens them, but IMO not much. It's like if someone risks their life for someone else, like soldiers to protect their country, just because the random bullet didn't happen to hit them doesn't make that any less courageous and honorable. In this case, if someone dies, especially if it's to save others, like Lhikan or Matoro, they still didn't know they were going to be revived, and even if they did, they couldn't know for sure it would function properly. It's always possible it would break just before they died.

Besides, let's not forget the rescue / hospital angle here.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Spoiler

Oh, great. So Matoro didn't die? What a way to ruin a great ending to 2007.

Edited by TheSkeletonMan939, Sep 18 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[-Bionicleman-]

Spoiler

Wait. So does this mean that everyone Velika is killing is going to the Red Star? It would explain why Tren Krom sent Pohatu and Kopaka that image of the Red Star, but Tren Krom and Karzahni weren't in the Red Star. But if that is what Velika is doing, then Velika doesn't want Tren Krom and Karzahni and "the powers that be" to be dead, but rather to be in the Red Star. But then would Velika have figured out the problem with it not sending them back to the MU? If he did, then he'd want them to be trapped there for whatever reason. If he didn't, is he trying to send them back to the Matoran Universe even though it's destroyed? [/rampant speculation that relies on the assumption that being killed still sends you to the Red Star even though they aren't dying in the MU]

No it doesn't, only beings who die in the MU go to the Red Star. The other issue is what happens in regards to alternate universes, something we talk about in the podcast.

Also you guys should listen to the podcast. Because it's good. And you can hear SPIRIT voices. And you will make me very happy.

Edited by bonesiii, Sep 18 2012 - 04:25 PM.
Fixing broken spoiler tag (it has to start outside the quotes to end outside). -bones

[Katuko]

Spoiler

I hope people like Matoro stays dead, even with this magic revivification place. It sounds like a spirit storage of sorts, and if Makuta Teridax's essence/spirit got destroyed when the moon struck him, then Matoro likely got dissolved permanently when he was used as life fuel. I wonder about people like Lhikan, Carapar, etc, though. Personally, I'd prefer dead characters to stay dead, even if this system explains a lot about how spirits can be restored.

[Tekulo the WindWriter]

Okay... I've had a moment to vent my absolute anger and wrath which was brought about from this news...

Spoiler

Hmm... So, I guess I was pretty close with the idea that their "memory" or "essence" was stored somewhere. Never imagined it could be the red star. This... this could actually tie in wonderfully for my story... I mean, sure it needs some revisions to make it canon and all... also this could indeed prove promising for what we've got in the works.

I'm surprised they actually gave them new bodies, though... If a unit glitched and went bad, then I would've thought they'd have a fail-safe for that...

Well, so much for Lessovik's suffering over all of those years, and forget Botar's tragedy, and hey, the matoran massacre? Haha, it's all funny now! "Riiight, funny! That's what I was thinking... >>"

[The Iron Toa]

This sure created a whole lot more questions, eh? Here's hoping we can get some clarification from Greg.

[Toa Smoke Monster]

Spoiler

Well, I didn't see this coming....

It's kind of a weird twist to me. I really don't like it when a character dies in story then suddenly comes back. It kind of cheapens the character's deaths, IMO. (Like Matoro's, Carapar's, and Krika's, for example.) It also raises a bunch of questions:

1. Did all the beings that died in the MU go to the Red Star?
2. When these deceased beings get their new bodies, do they look the same as the ones they had before, or do they get different looking bodies?
3. What would happen if one of these 'reborn' beings died in the Red Star?

Oh, and I third the request of a transcript of the podcast. I don't have a way to listen to it, but I love to read it.

Edited by Toa Smoke Monster, Sep 18 2012 - 05:11 PM.

[Toa Xemnas of Crystal]

....?

Spoiler

What?! So everyone who's dead isn't technically "dead"? That's so pointless!
That means Sidorak and a whole bunch of other villains are probably alive. But
now I'm wondering, does that mean Karzahni would be there also? That would be
awesome.
EDIT: Never mind about Karzahni, I just read the post that says that only beings who die in the MU can be resurrected.

Edited by Toa Xemnas of Crystal, Sep 18 2012 - 05:29 PM.

[Visaru]

Spoiler

I assume the reincarnated being would lose their memories, right? Only their spirit would remain. Because if they kept their memories, the MU would know about reincarnation. I assume mavrah is a glitch.

I can't say I like the new development, but it sort of makes sense. Spirits must be difficult to make from scratch.

[Makuta_of_Oz]

Greg really DOES have freedom with the story! :/

Spoiler

Naturally, this is gonna start a lot of speculation on who is alive inside the star. I'd like to assume, from the theories I've seen so far, that the rest of Lesovikk's team would still be alive inside the star.

Now I'm beginning to wonder how big the Red Star is!

[toa kopaka4372]

Spoiler

Also, it seems Teridax kew about this whole thing; I remember one of the hints that GregF gave a member back in 2010 was that it was because of this that Teridax felt it safe to kill Makuta over the years. Of course, this doesn't make sense, since if Teridax wanted someone dead, he'd have to make sure that person is dead permanently. Also, do Rahi come back? I'd think not, it'd be quite pointless.

So let's make a list of who we know is probably permanently dead.

Teridax: His essence was incinerated by the piece of Aqua Magna that hit him, so no revival for him.
Matoro His essense was used to revive Mata Nui, plus I think GregF said before he wouldn't bring him back as it would cheapen his sacrifice, so I think he's gone for good.
Mutran, Antroz, Gorast, Chirox, Bitil, Vamprah: incinerated by the Energy Storms
Krika: Faded from existence, so he's gone.
Icarax: Every single one of his atoms were seperated, I don't think his essence is coming back.
Lhikan:I'm pretty sure he's dead, I don't think GregF wouldn't cheapen his sacrifice.
Carapar: He was incinerated, right? So I think his essence is gone.
Ancient: See Carapar.
Tren Krom and Karzahni: Killed on SM.

We don't know about anyone else. However, it should be mentioned that apparently the Kestora killed some of the beings after they were revived to get rid of them, which is part of the reason why I think our current list of dead characters remains mostly the same, with a few revived.

[bonesiii]

Spoiler

I'm not so sure about this non-SM idea yall are kicking around. It sounds like it's a teleporter that reaches out to targets and pulls them in (whether body or just spirit). The RS is about the same distance from the SM now as it was from the MU on Aqua Magna. Why would it not be able to pull in SM beings?

Also, it's occured to me that if the powerful beings Velika is killing are being teleported to the RS and revived, the title of that serial, The Powers That Be, suddenly makes a ton of ironic sense.


Also, do we know this works for any MU being in principle? Or might it just be for mask wearers, so it's the same kind of revival as what happened to Jaller? Perhaps with Mavrah, only his mask was teleported up there, and his maskless original body could have been found in the water (or was eaten by Rahi etc.). If so, that would automatically rule out Teridax, the Karda Nui Makuta, and Matoro, as well as probably Lhikan since his mask was still being seen by others and wasn't teleported. And would rule out Skakdi and the like.

Maybe?

Edited by bonesiii, Sep 18 2012 - 05:59 PM.

[-Toa Lhikevikk-]

Spoiler

I'm not so sure about this non-SM idea yall are kicking around. It sounds like it's a teleporter that reaches out to targets and pulls them in (whether body or just spirit). The RS is about the same distance from the SM now as it was from the MU on Aqua Magna. Why would it not be able to pull in SM beings?

Also, it's occured to me that if the powerful beings Velika is killing are being teleported to the RS and revived, the title of that serial, The Powers That Be, suddenly makes a ton of ironic sense.


Also, do we know this works for any MU being in principle? Or might it just be for mask wearers, so it's the same kind of revival as what happened to Jaller? Perhaps with Mavrah, only his mask was teleported up there, and his maskless original body could have been found in the water (or was eaten by Rahi etc.). If so, that would automatically rule out Teridax, the Karda Nui Makuta, and Matoro, as well as probably Lhikan since his mask was still being seen by others and wasn't teleported. And would rule out Skakdi and the like.

Maybe?

Spoiler

It just hit me -- what if the whole point of Velika's attacks is not to murder his "victims" (as in purposefully kill them to death) but actually as a quick way of gathering them together on the Red Star?

[HahliNuva]

Personally, I find this rather exciting; in my mind, it's opened up quite a few possibilities story-wise.

[Angel Bob]

I thoroughly disapprove. I was alright with the GB-in-the-MU twist, but this is too far.

Seriously, if I accept this to be true, I can't take the story seriously whatsoever. I'm starting to side with the camp that maintains BIONICLE shouldn't have been continued past 2010.

[Magnetic Vorahk]

Spoiler

So, to my understanding, the way it was supposed to work is that when a being is killed, he goes right back, no memory wipe, no body swap, no nothing, just an exact replica of the previous being that gets sent back, so the MU's population remains totally consistent. But, nobody got teleported back, so people who died, stayed dead. Also, seeing as Greg referred to "important roles", he probably meant destinies, so Teridax, Lhikan, and Jovan would stay dead. Matoro would stay dead regardless, because he gave up his life force for Mata Nui. Jaller would not go up, because his life force was in the mask when he was revived, so it had not gone to the Red Star. Everybody else is probably up there.

Edited by Magnetic Vorahk, Sep 18 2012 - 06:50 PM.

[The Iron Toa]

Spoiler

But if everyone was meant to be reincarnated, how and why are new beings made? I mean, I know the 'how' we don't know and the 'why' is because the reincarnation didn't work, but... were they never intended to be able to create more of their kind, but they figured it out on their own? Or perhaps Mata Nui realized the error and compensated for it. And where do the new spirits/personalities come from?

[Wind Elemental]

Spoiler

Can Teridax ever be revived on the star or was his essence completely destroyed when he got crushed?

[fishers64]

Spoiler

Greg enjoys bring people back from the dead, I notice. What is it with him and that?

Anyway, this will silence some of the people who claimed that Character X got some cheap death at the expense of their character development. I would like to have a list of the revived and non-revived characters, however, so we can celebrate.

Although I think Botar is definately coming back through. And Zaktan, one way or another. (To be honest, I am enjoying that idea immensely).

And it does create some interesting comedic ideas. The idea of Krika in a Matoran body is hilarious. But any of these new forms would not likely have teleportation powers, to prevent them from going before their destined time.

Although it makes me wonder if the revived form of Lhikan had a Kanohi Iden.

And I fourth the request for the transcript of the podcast, or at least the relevant portion at hand.

Edited by fishers64, Sep 18 2012 - 07:21 PM.

[-Bionicleman-]

Spoiler

Except Greg specifically said only a "being who died inside Mata Nui" gets transported, so not anyone on the island of Mata Nui (though theoretically that could count) or SM. I would also imagine that since the MU has pretty much been destroyed all transports to the Red Star have stopped, but I could be wrong. We need more info from Greg.