Takua's Mask Before Pakari?

[Sir Kohran]

 

 

I bolded the part in error here -- nobody ever said all replacement masks don't fit.

 

 

 

(since nobody said there was any such rule, or ever implied it), it's a false dichotomy, that either all replacements must fit, or all must not fit.

 

When I first asked why a replacement mask point was introduced, you said it was "to explain the poor fit" of that mask. So if Takua's mask doesn't fit, and that's solely because Takua's mask is a replacement, the logical conclusion is that it's a feature of replacement masks that they don't fit. You didn't state that there were exceptions.

 

 

 

As for why, evidently it was a bit too large. They're held on magnetically, but what keeps them from tilting awkwardly and the like is presumably the exact fit between the face and the mask, much like LEGO pieces fitting together.

 

If the problem was with that particular mask, couldn't he just send it back and ask for one that did fit?

 

 

 

Because it's rare.

 

That's not the same as unique, which is what Takua's blue colour seems to be.

[Iblis]

That's not the same as unique, which is what Takua's blue colour seems to be.

 

No point debating it, either it's appears to be unique because it is (very) rare, & we don't see many Matoran in the scheme of things, take into account directors/whoever trying to keep things simple... or maybe it's because he's an Av-Matoran & unintentionally didn't do the right thing or some such...

 

Seriously though you poked a hole in your argument, a hole which could consume the entire argument on the grounds of simplicity...

Edited March 22, 2015 by Iblis

[Sir Kohran]

I don't know why you quoted the same sentence four times, or quite what you're getting at. To be totally clear, something that's rare exists in a small number, whilst something that's unique only exists in one instance. We've only seen one instance of a Ta-Matoran with blue parts, so that's unique until we see a second (which we won't because the old line has ended).

[Iblis]

I don't know why you quoted the same sentence four times, or quite what you're getting at. To be totally clear, something that's rare exists in a small number, whilst something that's unique only exists in one instance. We've only seen one instance of a Ta-Matoran with blue parts, so that's unique until we see a second (which we won't because the old line has ended).

 

Just because we haven't seen something inside the MU doesn't mean it doesn't exist, so if Greg says that something is rare for Ta-Matoran it doesn't matter whether there weren't any Ta-Matoran with that feature around that we saw, if he said that then there is no argument it's word of god.

 

What something is and what it appears to be can be vastly different things.

 

That we haven't seen a Ta-Matoran with blue features does not mean that such a Matoran can (or does) not exist.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Iblis

[Sir Kohran]

Right, look at it like this:

 

Takua was introduced as an irresponsible misfit, and it was revealed much later that he belonged to a Matoran group separate to the original six. Basically, he was an exception amongst the Mata Nui Matoran. Regarding colours, blue was reserved for water/ice characters and red, orange and yellow for fire characters. These elements and colours are generally seen as stark opposites, hence why there weren't any Ga-Matoran with red masks or Ta-Matoran with blue bodies. Takua had fire colours for his body but, bizarrely, a water colour for his mask (and legs by 2003), which prevented him fully belonging to either of the different groups. Many fans took this out-of-place blue as symbolising his odd-one-out status (and going further, his not belonging to any of the Mata Nui groups), in a similar way to how his poorly-fitting mask in the mask symbolised that he was destined to wear a different one that truly would fit.

 

But much later we're told that blue is a standard colour for fire characters and there's actually nothing special about Takua's blue bits at all. So why did Lego never include another (unexceptional) Ta-Matoran with blue features to make that clear?

[bonesiii]

if Takua's mask doesn't fit, and that's solely because Takua's mask is a replacement, the logical conclusion is that it's a feature of replacement masks that they don't fit.

That isn't logical at all, Kohran. Besides the fallacies I mentioned, it's also Hasty Generalization.

 

Take the fit of clothes for example. Say somebody has a coat that fits fine, but it wears out and they need a replacement. The one they happen to buy seems okay, but the hood is slightly too large for the rest of the coat. It tends to fall down in front of their eyes. Does this imply that ALL replacement coats will have this problem?

 

Of course not.

 

(FTR, that actually happened and is my current coat. Too lazy/cheap/not-picky to get another just for that, lol.)

 

 

The logical reason it doesn't fit is that it happens not to be quite the right size. Why exactly would it being a replacement mean all others wouldn't fit?

 

If the problem was with that particular mask, couldn't he just send it back and ask for one that did fit?

And that's where I figured the conversation would go several posts ago... Not sure how we got into "all replacements don't fit" instead... but moving on... Well, several possibilities here.

 

First, same basic reason I haven't replaced my coat yet; it serves in other ways and he doesn't mind it tilting a little occasionally so much that he would bother asking for a new one. Another maybe -- lack of confidence; it's a bother to get into the mask stores and he doesn't want to be more of a bother than he already is. Perhaps he already tried all the masks available and none fit quite right (makes sense esp. with his being the first Matoran, and an Av-Matoran; on both counts his head might be a slightly different size than the norm for others).

 

Or there could be my idea, that he wanted to keep the Pakari shape, and while others available might fit better, none of them happened to be Pakari (if his old mask was Pakari).

 

That's not the same as unique, which is what Takua's blue colour seems to be.

Rare things can seem unique when you only happen to have seen one of them yet, but haven't seen everybody (and we haven't seen every Ta-Matoran that exists or ever has). The fact remains that it's considered a valid color for Ta-Matoran, and they would know that.

 

Many fans took this out-of-place blue as symbolising his odd-one-out status (and going further, his not belonging to any of the Mata Nui groups), in a similar way to how his poorly-fitting mask in the mask symbolised that he was destined to wear a different one that truly would fit.

 

But much later we're told that blue is a standard colour for fire characters

Pardon if I'm reading too much in here, but it seems like you (and maybe SPIRIT?) have an odd issue with out-story things working, at the same time as in-story things working (and the out-story things can also be in-story if destiny influences them, since things can be so for multiple reasons). In other words, there's really nothing mutually exclusive about these things. In-story, of course blue has to be a Fire color; he was in disguise as a Ta-Matoran, so he was in colors fitting them. But the oddity of it also does what you say in the first part of this quote, mainly out-story, and possibly also in. (I bring up SPIRIT because it seems like he may be saying the reveal/decision that Takua had a replacement may not be consistent with its symbolism as foreshadowing. Unsure though if that's what he meant -- but if so, they work together precisely because that moviemaker intent is out-of-story.)

 

Also, you've got the chronological order backwards; we were told that blue is a Fire color before it was revealed he wasn't really a Ta-Matoran. We were told that to help make the reveal that he wasn't really one less blatantly obvious.

[Sir Kohran]

Take the fit of clothes for example. Say somebody has a coat that fits fine, but it wears out and they need a replacement. The one they happen to buy seems okay, but the hood is slightly too large for the rest of the coat. It tends to fall down in front of their eyes. Does this imply that ALL replacement coats will have this problem? Of course not.

 

If the explanation for the problem with the coat/mask is that "it's a replacement", then that does imply that this is a problem with all or at least many replacements.

 

First, same basic reason I haven't replaced my coat yet; it serves in other ways

 

What would other uses be? Matoran masks are powerless; their one purpose is to be worn and Takua's replacement didn't fully manage that.

 

Perhaps he already tried all the masks available and none fit quite right (makes sense esp. with his being the first Matoran, and an Av-Matoran; on both counts his head might be a slightly different size than the norm for others). Or there could be my idea, that he wanted to keep the Pakari shape, and while others available might fit better, none of them happened to be Pakari (if his old mask was Pakari).

 

Couldn't he get one specially designed for his head?

 

Rare things can seem unique when you only happen to have seen one of them yet, but haven't seen everybody (and we haven't seen every Ta-Matoran that exists or ever has). The fact remains that it's considered a valid color for Ta-Matoran, and they would know that.

 

I just find it strange that no media ever bothered to use this colour for any Ta-Matoran other than Takua, yet it's still supposedly valid for all of them.

 

Pardon if I'm reading too much in here, but it seems like you (and maybe SPIRIT?) have an odd issue with out-story things working, at the same time as in-story things working (and the out-story things can also be in-story if destiny influences them, since things can be so for multiple reasons). In other words, there's really nothing mutually exclusive about these things. In-story, of course blue has to be a Fire color; he was in disguise as a Ta-Matoran, so he was in colors fitting them. But the oddity of it also does what you say in the first part of this quote, mainly out-story, and possibly also in. (I bring up SPIRIT because it seems like he may be saying the reveal/decision that Takua had a replacement may not be consistent with its symbolism as foreshadowing. Unsure though if that's what he meant -- but if so, they work together precisely because that moviemaker intent is out-of-story.)

 

Maybe the reason I take issue with what you call the 'in story' things is that they remove a lot of the fun and intrigue that partly made the story enjoyable to begin with, when some things were left to the imagination. Think about the earlier and later explanations - Takua's mask doesn't not fit because he's destined to wear another, it doesn't fit because it's a poor replacement for a previous that did fit. Takua doesn't have blue because he's an exception to his red fellows, he has it just because blue's actually a standard colour that any of them could have and mostly just happen not to. 

 

Can you see what's happening? The 'mundane' later explanation replaces the 'dramatic' first one. And I think the dramatic ones make for a much more interesting story. It's similar to why the 'midichlorians' in the first Star Wars prequel bothered people, because it was an attempt at applying scientific or biological understanding to something mysterious that was meant to be beyond science and biology.

 

Also, you've got the chronological order backwards; we were told that blue is a Fire color before it was revealed he wasn't really a Ta-Matoran. We were told that to help make the reveal that he wasn't really one less blatantly obvious.

 

Do you remember the dates for these?

Edited March 22, 2015 by Sir Kohran

[SPIRIT]

 

Pardon if I'm reading too much in here, but it seems like you (and maybe SPIRIT?) have an odd issue with out-story things working, at the same time as in-story things working (and the out-story things can also be in-story if destiny influences them, since things can be so for multiple reasons). In other words, there's really nothing mutually exclusive about these things. In-story, of course blue has to be a Fire color; he was in disguise as a Ta-Matoran, so he was in colors fitting them. But the oddity of it also does what you say in the first part of this quote, mainly out-story, and possibly also in. (I bring up SPIRIT because it seems like he may be saying the reveal/decision that Takua had a replacement may not be consistent with its symbolism as foreshadowing. Unsure though if that's what he meant -- but if so, they work together precisely because that moviemaker intent is out-of-story.)

I don't really have any issue with it in-story, I was just putting the out-story stuff in context in case anyone was wondering why Greg decided that Takua had a replacement at all.

[fishers64]

 

Perhaps he already tried all the masks available and none fit quite right (makes sense esp. with his being the first Matoran, and an Av-Matoran; on both counts his head might be a slightly different size than the norm for others). Or there could be my idea, that he wanted to keep the Pakari shape, and while others available might fit better, none of them happened to be Pakari (if his old mask was Pakari).

 

Couldn't he get one specially designed for his head?

Not on Mata Nui - there were no maskmakers, let alone ones with knowledge of special designs.

 

As for dates of reveals, that will have to be later. There is a thing called sleep, and I'm getting it.

Edited March 22, 2015 by fishers64

[bonesiii]

If the explanation for the problem with the coat/mask is that "it's a replacement", then that does imply that this is a problem with all or at least many replacements.

It only proves there's a problem with one, and it opens up the possibility that it could be a problem with others. More importantly, isn't it a problem you'd pretty much only find among replacements? (Bolding 'cuz I realized late last night I should have led with this point, and it's probably what Greg was thinking. )

 

I'd like to hear how his original mask could be made to not fit well. He was the first Matoran; I'd think the GBs would make him with a mask that fits. And I would think all Matoran are probably made with masks that fit too. It makes sense that the chances of a poor-fit mask are virtually nill with originals and so those chances go up with replacements.

 

Of course, that depends on how Matoran are made which we don't know, so I wouldn't say bad fit originals are impossible. Just seems far less likely. So it seems to me that Takua's mask not fitting implies, realistically, that it's a replacement.

 

What would other uses be? Matoran masks are powerless; their one purpose is to be worn and Takua's replacement didn't fully manage that.

I've already suggested one that is my personal headcanon. He also just might like that shape better than other options he has. He might like the symbolism of strength versus other shapes. If his original mask color was blue, and he wanted to keep it, it might have been the only one available. (Some of these, like this one, depend on how and in how many groups the Turaga store masks; if it's all in one place, like buried near Kini-Nui, some of these become less likely, but since travel outside the villages was taboo, probably there are six stocks and blue masks in the Ta stock would be rare.) Or he might like the symbolism of the hottest fire, regardless of what his original color was. And probably he liked its being different, since he wanted to travel.

 

I just find it strange that no media ever bothered to use this colour for any Ta-Matoran other than Takua, yet it's still supposedly valid for all of them.

I don't see why this would be strange. You're asking set designers or animators to bother doing something that is 1) supposed to be rare (so there's no reason to do it), and 2) that the story team probably never bothered to tell them anyways. It's normal to see only one of something rare in a small group.

 

Maybe the reason I take issue with what you call the 'in story' things is that they remove a lot of the fun and intrigue that partly made the story enjoyable to begin with, when some things were left to the imagination.

That's what I was driving at -- and this is not a valid argument against the plausibility of the explanation itself... If this is really what's behind your dislike of this one, you should be up front about it IMO, and not try to grasp at straws to try to make it sound like the explanation itself is illogical. This is a bias -- a bias that isn't wrong per se, just based on a valid personal taste, but when you use it to motivate coming up with arguments that don't make this clear, it becomes bias. Though nothing wrong with trying to ask questions to help understand it better if you also don't quite see it.

 

Personally, I dislike this sort of thinking. I like understanding things for what they really are, and many times in real life, mundane explanations are the truth, and fanciful ones that people wanted to believe just because they didn't know the answer are false. I get why people can be disappointed when they turn out to be mundane, but at the same time, they set themselves up for this by choosing to be unrealistic in the first place, and can "deprogram" the mistake by choosing to enjoy truth and logical explanations. Now, it's true that fiction doesn't have to share this quality with real life, but what I can't help but notice is that it also doesn't have to not share it, and it may be healthier if in general it does. I notice that by practicing the other way of thinking, I can get practical value by understanding what happens around me better and making the right choices of what actions will cause what results, etc.

 

So, if somebody's armor doesn't quite fit right, although it could be used for plot symbolism by writers/animators, most likely they just didn't have a better fit available (and if they were created with original armor that wore out by some method/being/machine that probably would have given them a good fit originally, it implies it's likely a replacement).

 

Also, do you have a more plausible in-story explanation? Because if this really is the only really plausible one, then not wanting to know it doesn't make it not likely true (or what would be true if the story was real, since reality doesn't have the luxury of not everything having an explanation even if nobody knows it ), it just means you would want to continue to be unaware of it.

 

I can think of a few, but I'm curious what you'd say, so I'll leave it at the question.

 

Think about the earlier and later explanations - Takua's mask doesn't not fit because he's destined to wear another, it doesn't fit because it's a poor replacement for a previous that did fit. Takua doesn't have blue because he's an exception to his red fellows, he has it just because blue's actually a standard colour that any of them could have and mostly just happen not to. 

 

Can you see what's happening? The 'mundane' later explanation replaces the 'dramatic' first one.

Two big issues here. I know the "mundane" issue is your main point, but I'll get back to why that logic doesn't work in a moment -- I want to focus on the admission of something else I was driving at earlier; the idea that there's a replacement. There's, again, nothing mutually exclusive about these, so there's no replacement. We just didn't know why it was a poor fit previous to finding it out, or didn't know if blue was a valid Ta color before finding it out. All that really happened is learning more. What's being replaced is mystery (or not knowing something, whether or not anybody had a sense of mysterious feeling about it) with knowledge.

 

Second, this argument completely ignores 'mundane' explanations in the very beginning of the story, and applies an inconsistent standard.

 

When we see the canisters on the beaches with the lids off, if we don't know how the lids were removed, we may imagine a mysterious being poked his head around the corner and sang a magical spellsong at it, and the lid faded from view, and then appeared next to the canister. But that animation had to go and have it just get blasted off!

 

When we see villagers on the island, we might imagine they are representations of the wild, and not want to know if they live in mundane huts... but there they go showing huts! We didn't need to know that they had a plausible method of survival; shelter -- we could have imagined that when it rains at night they just fade from existence and appear again the next day... or... just stand there getting wet (admittedly they did use this a bit with Ko-Koro -- but it was funny/delightful because by then it was unexpected, heh).

 

These things are "mundane" but they're given a pass because you knew them very early on.

 

It's only things that are revealed later that seem to be given this criticism (generally?). This is inconsistent and honestly not fair -- Bionicle was never meant to only have mystery that was never answered, and for all unanswered questions to be grandious, magical mysteries rather than just not happening to have been told it yet. And exploring more of the plausible, realistic details was a big part of the point of it.

 

Incidentally, you could use the same argument against CSI. Gradually, mysteries are replaced with knowledge of (generally attempted to be ) plausible explanations and that's actually the whole point of the show. And while Bionicle is supposed to have some fantasy in it, it's also a mixture, and even most fantasy stories have plenty of "mundane" to ground them. And like CSI, part of the point of it was to solve mysteries and come to understand things not understood/known before.

Edited March 22, 2015 by bonesiii

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

Let me try a quick interpretation that preserves both the mundane and symbolic "causes" of Takua's mask oddities:

 

• Takua's original mask - which he kept when he was transferred to Metru Nui - was a colorless Pakari; tinted blue by his Av-Matoran abilities, not by paint. Because his memories were wiped, this ability was fully subconscious. It was blue because Takua's just kind of glitchy (read: lovably incompetent), being the first Matoran and all.
• To preserve his cover (because they couldn't get the mask to stay red or yellow), the Order of Mata Nui made blue into a valid, but "rare", Ta-Matoran color during the Time Slip. (via brainwashing and memory wipes, etc., same as the rest of the Time Slip really)
• When Takua's mask broke, he tried several masks, but none of them fit because he was an Av-Matoran and his head was shaped slightly differently. So he picked a blue Pakari, just like his old one. 

How's that? It doesn't fit well because he's destined to wear another mask, both in- and out-of-universe. Similarly, blue is a Ta-Matoran color solely because of Takua, both in- and out-of-universe.

[LegoSWfan]

Maybe blues just his favorite color?

[bonesiii]

Let me try a quick interpretation that preserves both the mundane and symbolic "causes" of Takua's mask oddities:

Takua's original mask - which he kept when he was transferred to Metru Nui - was a colorless Pakari; tinted blue

I like up until there -- I presume that being the first Matoran, and an Av-Matoran, and that white and gold are the colors for Av-Matoran, that Takua originally had that color scheme. (I've 'headcanoned' him that way with an edit for my retelling; white with a gold Pakari, and a bit of gold elsewhere too I think.)

 

Of course, he could have changed it himself mentally later, since Av-Matoran can do that, but I think it's best to think his Ta colors came when he was disguised as Ta. Although Av-Matoran do often pick other elements to imitate as seen with the 08 Matoran. (But I also like the gold and white since he actually was destined to be a Toa of Light and those would be his colors.)

 

by his Av-Matoran abilities, not by paint. Because his memories were wiped, this ability was fully subconscious. It was blue because Takua's just kind of glitchy (read: lovably incompetent), being the first Matoran and all.

 

To preserve his cover (because they couldn't get the mask to stay red or yellow), the Order of Mata Nui made blue into a valid, but "rare", Ta-Matoran color during the Time Slip. (via brainwashing and memory wipes, etc., same as the rest of the Time Slip really)

Possible, but blue is already a normal color for fire, so I think this is overcomplicating things.

 

When Takua's mask broke, he tried several masks, but none of them fit because he was an Av-Matoran and his head was shaped slightly differently. So he picked a blue Pakari, just like his old one.

This part makes sense, but I'd make it just that he used to have a Pakari and either only a blue Pakari was available or he picked blue on purpose because he likes the symbolism of the hottest-burning fire or symbolizing travel, etc. Regardless, I think destiny was influencing him (or the selection of masks) to make it work out that way, to help clue him in that he wasn't meant to keep that mask for his whole life.

 

How's that? It doesn't fit well because he's destined to wear another mask, both in- and out-of-universe. Similarly, blue is a Ta-Matoran color solely because of Takua, both in- and out-of-universe.

Problem with the latter is that it would affect other Matoran and paint storytellers into a corner where they then couldn't have a Ta-Matoran with blue prior to that, and it would mean that for some reason the GBs didn't originally allow it for Ta, even though other elements have been seen with wide ranges of variety, even stretching Earth to purple. Seems odd, yanno? I think the GBs would likely include blue in the range from the start; it's the natural progression from red to orange to yellow, for fire.

[Takhamavahu]

Powerless Matoran masks don't change color at all. They have to be painted.

I would like that to be true but I've never heard that anywhere. Got a quote?

 

 

Greg confirmed blue is within the valid range of colors for fire. 

When did he ever say that? Because I remember quite the opposite, that Takua made his mask blue (or picked one that was blue) because he liked it and everyone thought he was weird for that, or because there were no red masks available that day. so he picked a blue one and was like "that's fine" and everyone still thought he was weird for that.

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

 

Powerless Matoran masks don't change color at all. They have to be painted.

I would like that to be true but I've never heard that anywhere. Got a quote?

 

 

Not a Greg quote, but does this do?

 

When Kanohi are made originally, they adopt a grayish color which they keep until they are worn. At that point the mask adopts a color with respect to the wearer. Matoran masks, having no power, will not change color at all, making it necessary to paint them in their colors.

[fishers64]

Brace yourself. Greg quotes incoming. 
 

Date: Jan 12 2004, 07:46 PM
 
#4: Why does Takua wear a blue Pakari? I know that the Avohkii was his true mask, but how did a blue mask of any type get chosen for him?

The Avohkii was only his mask as a Toa, not as a Matoran. And I don't know enough of Takua's backstory to answer. My guess is that whatever his original mask was got broken and this was what was available. 
 
Date: May 31 2004, 01:34 PM
 
5) Are Matoran masks grey when not being worn? If so why is Takua's mask blue when he wears it?

Just discussed this with someone the other day. The story team's feeling is that Matoran masks are colored when they are produced, and that the whole "changing color when you put it on" applies only to masks that have powers. 
 
Date: Jun 1 2004, 08:35 AM
 
Then why does Takua have a blue masks?

Same reason many Onu-Matoran wear purple masks. It is an accepted color in his metru. 
 
Date: Dec 3 2004, 06:26 AM
 
4) Does the Bionicle team have any info on why Takua is the only Ta-Matoran with a blue mask?

4) If they do, they haven't told me -- it probably dates back to the original design for him in the software, so it may have been a game designer decision. 
 
Date: May 31 2005, 10:00 PM
 
4- At the end of the second movie, you see Takua lead Vakama toward Jaller (or Jalla, as it was then) with his broken mask. I think you've said before that Takua broke his mask a while after the matoran got to Mata Nui, thus he had the blue Pakari instead of a Ta-Koran colored mask. If this is true, did Takua break his mask when he came out of his canister, had it replaced by Vakama, then found Jaller also broken his mask?

ANSWER: That's possible. It's also possible his mask was broken while on Metru Nui, since we have never seen how he looked there.

 
Then I'm going to do something I'd always thought I'd be doing when I made that TXT file...We're still in the Official Greg Discussion topic...
 

May 4 2006, 12:20 PM

Message Forwarded From GregF
 

Hello, just two things... First, I wanna get something cleared up that's causing tons of debate in the Takua's blue mask S&T topic.

1) A while ago, probably over a year ago, you answered someone's PM about Matoran Kanohi and said that the current opinion was that Matoran Kanohi are painted their colors, rather than simply switching colors and being gray when not worn like with masks of power. Do you still consider that official? It would explain Takua's blue mask; it could have been broken and that was the color he picked as replacement (blue also works for fire, you've said too, though). In reference to this post, and Rayg's above.


2) SPIRIT said in my guide to Bionicle Physics topic that you recently said it isn't confirmed that the water on the surface is H2O... Well, maybe I misunderstood or you just forgot, but I'm 99% percent sure you did actually confirm that in a Q&A a while ago. I know that I talked about it as H2O in a PM and I interpreted your answer as confirming it. Here's my post about that. What do you think? I've got it listed as fact both in the Official Protodermis Topic and this one, so if it's indeed not fact I need to edit them.

1) I don't recall every saying that.

2) It may well be H20, but I don't recall confirming it, because it is not in any story bible that it is water as we know it to be. (I am referring only to the ocean around Voya Nui and Mata Nui.) For the sake of clarity, it has all the same properties as water we know, so the actual chemical composition, to me, is really not relevant to the storyline.

 

Wat. 
 

5) Could a Toa of fire be blue for blue fire?
 
5a) If not could he still have blue fire? 
 
5) Not in BIONICLE, no. The only blue fire I have ever seen is fed by natural gas. 
 
1. Can a toa be a different color, as in a blue toa of fire? Because there's blue fire in are world.
 
1) Not in BIONICLE, no -- it would be too confusing to have blue Toa running around who did not represent water.

 
This is of course where we yell at Greg for being unscientific, as usual. But I think this kicks out the "its a part of fire's color scheme" thing. (Also if memory serves this is about when the Paracosmos started being published, so bonesiii.)
 

5. In Bionicle Heroes it is stated that Takua's blue Pakari didn't fit him right. While the game is not canon, does this have any basis in fact?
 
5) Yes, it does. If you see Mask of Light, there are scenes I believe of him obviously adjusting the mask.

 
"Doesn't fit" came after "replacement" in the order of reveals. That might be something.
 

Apr 16 2007, 08:43 AM
 

I have only one question for you to anwser, Mr. Farshtey, that just randomly popped out of my head while reading OGD.

So, we know how the Matoran of Light are able to seemingly change their colors. We know that they're really gold and white. As was Takua. But when the Matoran on Mata Nui, at the end of the Kal saga were "rebuilt" with stronger bodies, was Takua gold and white even then or have other parts been added to his body that were already red and blue? In other words, without that color changing effect, would he be still gold and white or would he be (at least at parts) red and blue due to the alterings of his body? Or am I misinterpreting something here?


Oh, and while I'm here I'd like to ask if that crazy Matoran from BL2 was still able to do this "trick" after his "fixing"?


Thanks, and excuse me for robbing you of a few minutes of life. I'm sure there was another thing I wanted to ask but I seem to have forgotten it.

Your question makes a lot of sense, because it would not make sense that he would have been given gold and white parts to rebuild himself with. So I would say your latter option probably would have made sense when he was a Matoran.


And answer to your second question is yes, that's why he did not appear gold and white to Jaller and his crew.

 

 
Now we get to the Official Greg Dialogue: 
 

Date: Feb 10 2008, 12:04 AM
 
3.why did the OOMN disguise takua so he had a blue mask? as far as I know, there aren't many ta-matoran with blue masks.
3) That wasn't his original mask. His mask broke and it was replaced with that one, which is why it never seemed to fit right.

 
And that's the end of what I could find on this matter. Enjoy!

[bonesiii]

But I think this kicks out the "its a part of fire's color scheme" thing.

What did you mean here? The quote you said this after is talking about Toa. We've seen loose evidence with Jaller, Vakama, and Nuparu that when a Matoran whose color scheme is beyond the single normal color for that element becomes a Toa, their color changes to the normal color (normally; we do have Lhikan to break this as a rule though). We haven't seen a Toa Onepu, but I think it's safe to presume the purple would go, to avoid confusion with Toa of Gravity. This doesn't overturn the wider range of accepted colors for Ta-Matoran.

 

Although it's easily possible Greg once again forgot that at that point.

Edited March 23, 2015 by bonesiii

[fishers64]

 

I will concede that the Toa/Matoran color ranges for certain elements may not be the same. The answers make it seem like the fact that Takua's mask broke and he had to get a new one was responsible for the blue color. 

[Boidoh]

 

 

And please let's not bring this to Greg...

 

It looks like my actions have left a stain on the community.

[Banana Gunz]

 

 

 

And please let's not bring this to Greg...

 

It looks like my actions have left a stain on the community.

 

 

Eh, don't worry about it. I wrote that for this topic in particular because Takua is such an influenctial character that knowing what other masks he may have worn could upset a lot of people. Sorry if you took that offensively.

[Petewa]

Maybe he chose blue as the colour for his replacement mask because he felt like being weird, because weird is different and different gets more attention,

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

Woah, that's a lot of past Greg F quotes. Brings back memories for sure!
 

-NotS

[LegoSWfan]

Maybe it was a parkari to begin with, and he later got one that was just a bit too big?

[Grungemeister]

Right, look at it like this:

 

Takua had fire colours for his body but, bizarrely, a water colour for his mask (and legs by 2003), which prevented him fully belonging to either of the different groups. 

 

But much later we're told that blue is a standard colour for fire characters and there's actually nothing special about Takua's blue bits at all. So why did Lego never include another (unexceptional) Ta-Matoran with blue features to make that clear?

I don't know if this will help out this argument, but that's a good point that his legs were only blue in 2003. Takua was built with YELLOW legs (presumably, since he had them in his shrunken form), but he rebuilt himself with BLUE legs. This may help hold water for the argument that "Takua chose a blue mask because he is weird". He never really felt like a Ta-Matoran, so he chose a blue mask, and then later, when given the opportunity, he gave himself blue armor.

[Sergei Rahkmaninoff]

Maybe he chose blue as the colour for his replacement mask because he felt like being weird, because weird is different and different gets more attention,

 

 

Right, look at it like this:

 

Takua had fire colours for his body but, bizarrely, a water colour for his mask (and legs by 2003), which prevented him fully belonging to either of the different groups. 

 

But much later we're told that blue is a standard colour for fire characters and there's actually nothing special about Takua's blue bits at all. So why did Lego never include another (unexceptional) Ta-Matoran with blue features to make that clear?

I don't know if this will help out this argument, but that's a good point that his legs were only blue in 2003. Takua was built with YELLOW legs (presumably, since he had them in his shrunken form), but he rebuilt himself with BLUE legs. This may help hold water for the argument that "Takua chose a blue mask because he is weird". He never really felt like a Ta-Matoran, so he chose a blue mask, and then later, when given the opportunity, he gave himself blue armor.

 

 

I really like this idea. It goes perfectly with his assertion that he's 'always different.'

 

Doesn't answer what mask he wore before, but it would clear up the whole issue with Ta-Matoran color weirdness. Except that Greg has already canonized that blue is a Ta-Matoran color...

[Grungemeister]

I feel like blue as a Ta-Matoran color is one of those odd choices that the Matoran must have made at some point. Like blue is also a Ko-Matoran color and orange is an Onu-Matoran color. Blue I can give a pass, but really? Orange?

[bonesiii]

I feel like blue as a Ta-Matoran color is one of those odd choices that the Matoran must have made at some point. Like blue is also a Ko-Matoran color and orange is an Onu-Matoran color. Blue I can give a pass, but really? Orange?

Actually a lot of types of dirt have orange-ish tints.

[Grungemeister]

 

I feel like blue as a Ta-Matoran color is one of those odd choices that the Matoran must have made at some point. Like blue is also a Ko-Matoran color and orange is an Onu-Matoran color. Blue I can give a pass, but really? Orange?

Actually a lot of types of dirt have orange-ish tints.

 

It would make more sense for a Po-Matoran to have orange. They already do though, sort of. Why do Onu-Matoran have purple sometimes, then?

[bonesiii]

Purple is often associated with darkness, and underground it's dark. Not sure if there's anything more than that, though.

[IcarusBen]

I'm sticking with my head-canon; Takua liked blue, his AvToran ability kicked in subconsciously and changed his yellow mask to blue. He later swapped out his yellow armor for blue to match his color scheme.

 

As for what his mask used to be, I'd say a yellow Pakari.

[Petewa]

 

Maybe he chose blue as the colour for his replacement mask because he felt like being weird, because weird is different and different gets more attention,

 

 

Right, look at it like this:

 

Takua had fire colours for his body but, bizarrely, a water colour for his mask (and legs by 2003), which prevented him fully belonging to either of the different groups. 

 

But much later we're told that blue is a standard colour for fire characters and there's actually nothing special about Takua's blue bits at all. So why did Lego never include another (unexceptional) Ta-Matoran with blue features to make that clear?

I don't know if this will help out this argument, but that's a good point that his legs were only blue in 2003. Takua was built with YELLOW legs (presumably, since he had them in his shrunken form), but he rebuilt himself with BLUE legs. This may help hold water for the argument that "Takua chose a blue mask because he is weird". He never really felt like a Ta-Matoran, so he chose a blue mask, and then later, when given the opportunity, he gave himself blue armor.

 

 

I really like this idea. It goes perfectly with his assertion that he's 'always different.'

 

Doesn't answer what mask he wore before, but it would clear up the whole issue with Ta-Matoran color weirdness. Except that Greg has already canonized that blue is a Ta-Matoran color...

 

Yes, but blue is so rare for Ta-Matoran that it's bizarre to ever see, so bizarre that if another blue Ta-Matoran appeared everyone here would question whether or not they were an Av-Matoran in disguise,

 

 

I still think he wore a gold pakari beforehand,

[IcarusBen]

 

 

Maybe he chose blue as the colour for his replacement mask because he felt like being weird, because weird is different and different gets more attention,

 

 

Right, look at it like this:

 

Takua had fire colours for his body but, bizarrely, a water colour for his mask (and legs by 2003), which prevented him fully belonging to either of the different groups. 

 

But much later we're told that blue is a standard colour for fire characters and there's actually nothing special about Takua's blue bits at all. So why did Lego never include another (unexceptional) Ta-Matoran with blue features to make that clear?

I don't know if this will help out this argument, but that's a good point that his legs were only blue in 2003. Takua was built with YELLOW legs (presumably, since he had them in his shrunken form), but he rebuilt himself with BLUE legs. This may help hold water for the argument that "Takua chose a blue mask because he is weird". He never really felt like a Ta-Matoran, so he chose a blue mask, and then later, when given the opportunity, he gave himself blue armor.

 

 

I really like this idea. It goes perfectly with his assertion that he's 'always different.'

 

Doesn't answer what mask he wore before, but it would clear up the whole issue with Ta-Matoran color weirdness. Except that Greg has already canonized that blue is a Ta-Matoran color...

 

Yes, but blue is so rare for Ta-Matoran that it's bizarre to ever see, so bizarre that if another blue Ta-Matoran appeared everyone here would question whether or not they were an Av-Matoran in disguise,

 

 

I still think he wore a gold pakari beforehand,

 

When an Av-Matoran; gold.

When a Ta-Matoran; yellow

When Av-powers went hooey; blue.

 

Tada! Fixed.

[Petewa]

 

 

 

Maybe he chose blue as the colour for his replacement mask because he felt like being weird, because weird is different and different gets more attention,

 

 

Right, look at it like this:

 

Takua had fire colours for his body but, bizarrely, a water colour for his mask (and legs by 2003), which prevented him fully belonging to either of the different groups. 

 

But much later we're told that blue is a standard colour for fire characters and there's actually nothing special about Takua's blue bits at all. So why did Lego never include another (unexceptional) Ta-Matoran with blue features to make that clear?

I don't know if this will help out this argument, but that's a good point that his legs were only blue in 2003. Takua was built with YELLOW legs (presumably, since he had them in his shrunken form), but he rebuilt himself with BLUE legs. This may help hold water for the argument that "Takua chose a blue mask because he is weird". He never really felt like a Ta-Matoran, so he chose a blue mask, and then later, when given the opportunity, he gave himself blue armor.

 

 

I really like this idea. It goes perfectly with his assertion that he's 'always different.'

 

Doesn't answer what mask he wore before, but it would clear up the whole issue with Ta-Matoran color weirdness. Except that Greg has already canonized that blue is a Ta-Matoran color...

 

Yes, but blue is so rare for Ta-Matoran that it's bizarre to ever see, so bizarre that if another blue Ta-Matoran appeared everyone here would question whether or not they were an Av-Matoran in disguise,

 

 

I still think he wore a gold pakari beforehand,

 

When an Av-Matoran; gold.

When a Ta-Matoran; yellow

When Av-powers went hooey; blue.

 

Tada! Fixed.

 

That's exactly what I said,

[Mr. Cup of Fail]

Alright guys, let's go ask Greg what mask did Takua had before the Pakari (I'm joking if someone couldn't tell from that tongue sticking out face).

 

Anyway I think Takua mask before the Pakari would be the first Great or Noble Kanohi, sense it said that Takua was the first Matoran ever created by the Great Beings.

[IcarusBen]

I thought Kanohi predate the Matoran.

[Archon~]

I thought Kanohi predate the Matoran.

I'm pretty sure that the Matoran were the first beings that were created and wore Kanohi. Actually thinking about it, since he was the first Matoran, it's sort of logical that he would have worn the mask that symbolizes the Great Spirit, since Takua was meants to have a destiny later on in the GB Civil War and was originally created with inherent sapience unlike other Matoran.

Idk just a thought.

 

Tldr Takua wore a Hau cuz he's the OG Matoran.

[Lego-of.me]

I had assumed that his mask was Intended to be Ruru to begin with. The night-vision would make sense for a Toa of light.

Also, I thought that the Yellow Red and Blue were references to primary colors and the idea that light is comprised of all colors.

[Regitnui]

I had assumed that his mask was Intended to be Ruru to begin with. The night-vision would make sense for a Toa of light.

Also, I thought that the Yellow Red and Blue were references to primary colors and the idea that light is comprised of all colors.

The primary colors of light are actually Red, Green and Blue, hence RGB on your computer screen. Those wouldn't fit a Mata Matoran, however.

 

The Ruru's a good candidate, if a little redundant. Why use your mask when you can light up the dark with your element?

[Irrie]

 

I had assumed that his mask was Intended to be Ruru to begin with. The night-vision would make sense for a Toa of light.

Also, I thought that the Yellow Red and Blue were references to primary colors and the idea that light is comprised of all colors.

The primary colors of light are actually Red, Green and Blue, hence RGB on your computer screen. Those wouldn't fit a Mata Matoran, however.

 

The Ruru's a good candidate, if a little redundant. Why use your mask when you can light up the dark with your element?

The same could be said for Teridax's mask of shadows. It could be worn as a political symbol rather than for the actual powers.

[Regitnui]

If it was political, perhaps the GBs gave him a Kiril, representing his people's destiny to rebuild the GB's world. Or a Mask of Charisma, so he would be authoritative as the first Matoran. Or a Pakari, to show his inner strength. A Calix could represent his ultimate destiny, or a Faxon his link to the other Matoran. A Rode would show him as the full potential of the Matoran species.

 

Honestly, we could justify many masks by saying they were political. Do we know what the oldest non-legendary mask is? He probably wore that.