tamaru34 Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 As we can see on voya/mahri nui matoran sets, matoran are capable of wearing great masks. How can this be? I thought they wore powerless masks. Also, on Mata Nui and Metru Nui Matoran, all masks besides the ones the Toa wear are in noble form. Why aren't there any with great masks If voya/mahri nui matoran wear them? Quote Evil knows, that hope is afloat. Where life is enslaved, all can be saved. Light will unite, what now darkness divides. Spark the flame of the heart FOR THE FUTURE TO START. Read my epic G2 fanfic, Beyond Okoto, and find out what happened after the Toa left Okoto! BEYOND OKOTO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchavoya Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 (edited) As we can see on voya/mahri nui matoran sets, matoran are capable of wearing great masks. How can this be? I thought they wore powerless masks.Also, on Mata Nui and Metru Nui Matoran, all masks besides the ones the Toa wear are in noble form. Why aren't there any with great masks If voya/mahri nui matoran wear them?Jaller on Mata Nui has a great Hau. Several other matoran also had great masks (Like hewkii, kongu, etc. Almost every matoran from Mata Nui that got a set had a great mask actually, with few exceptions like Hafu. Just the 6 metru Nui matoran had noble masks). A mask is just a mask. A matoran (not even on Voya Nui) with a great mask can’t tap into the power though. I believe there was also something about some masks being purely decorative with no power to be tapped at all. Edited February 27, 2018 by jchavoya 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuragaNuva Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 (edited) Almost all Kanohi worn by Matoran are powerless, simply carved into the shape of various Noble and Great masks. Even if a Matoran were to wear a Great or Noble mask, though (like Jaller did), they wouldn't be able to access its power. Edited February 28, 2018 by TuragaNuva 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TERIDAX941 Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 In adding to what was said above, it all depends on the type of Kanoka disk used to create said mask. Disks with a power level of 6 or less results in a "powerless" mask that Matoran wear. Now, even though it's powerless, it's still important since Matoran need masks to function. After that it goes up from there, power level 7 makes noble masks, power level 8 makes great masks, and as we've seen with the great disks, they made a legendary mask (the Vahi). Jaller actually wore a great mask that had powers because he inherited Lhikan's great Hau. But since he was a matoran he couldn't use the power of said mask. Other matoran as mentioned above just make their masks in the shape of well known masks but just don't have powers attached to them. 2 Quote Formerly Iron_Man5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuragaNuva Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 In adding to what was said above, it all depends on the type of Kanoka disk used to create said mask. Disks with a power level of 6 or less results in a "powerless" mask that Matoran wear. Now, even though it's powerless, it's still important since Matoran need masks to function. After that it goes up from there, power level 7 makes noble masks, power level 8 makes great masks, and as we've seen with the great disks, they made a legendary mask (the Vahi). Jaller actually wore a great mask that had powers because he inherited Lhikan's great Hau. But since he was a matoran he couldn't use the power of said mask. Other matoran as mentioned above just make their masks in the shape of well known masks but just don't have powers attached to them.All correct, except that Jaller wore a Noble Hau, not a Great one (since it was taken after Lhikan became a Turaga). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TERIDAX941 Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Jaller actually wore a great mask that had powers because he inherited Lhikan's great Hau. All correct, except that Jaller wore a Noble Hau, not a Great one (since it was taken after Lhikan became a Turaga). I stand corrected. It's confusing since the Jaller set is actually in the shape of a Great Hau. 1 Quote Formerly Iron_Man5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xccj Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 I mean, they eventually decided that there was no real connection between the shape and the power of a mask, based on the Toa Hagah's masks being in particular shapes that did not reflect the actual mask powers. (Like how Norik's mask was the same shape as Dume's but with a different power.) I always imagined the mask shapes were usually consistent based on some decision by the mask makers to keep things organized, but it wasn't a steadfast rule. And that's why powerless Matoran masks could take on any shape, be it Great or Noble. (And it's not even like the sets stayed consistent; Toa Lhikan's 2004 Hau was a different shape than Tahu's classic Hau, but in the story they were essentially the same mask type.) 2 Quote My BZPower Stories Dark Core--Kulagi's Kanoka--A Shadow's Contrivance--Mystery on Keli-Nui--BZ-Koro: To Bring Back Bionicle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchavoya Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 (edited) I mean, they eventually decided that there was no real connection between the shape and the power of a mask, based on the Toa Hagah's masks being in particular shapes that did not reflect the actual mask powers. (Like how Norik's mask was the same shape as Dume's but with a different power.) I always imagined the mask shapes were usually consistent based on some decision by the mask makers to keep things organized, but it wasn't a steadfast rule. And that's why powerless Matoran masks could take on any shape, be it Great or Noble. (And it's not even like the sets stayed consistent; Toa Lhikan's 2004 Hau was a different shape than Tahu's classic Hau, but in the story they were essentially the same mask type.) Especially confusing since Lhikan’s great hau looked different than Tahu’s great Hau. Lhikan turned turaga (gold good guy) without the mask changing. That mask was then taken and given to Jaller where it suddenly looked like Tahu’s great hau. Maybe Lhikan was like Norik, and had a specially shaped Hau that wasn’t the standard shape. I think that would explain why it didn’t change shape from Toa to gold good guy (doesn’t explain why it changed in the movie, unless the movie is non-canon). This doesn’t however explain why it changed shape when given to Jaller. Edited February 28, 2018 by jchavoya 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downfall Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 (edited) I mean, they eventually decided that there was no real connection between the shape and the power of a mask, based on the Toa Hagah's masks being in particular shapes that did not reflect the actual mask powers. (Like how Norik's mask was the same shape as Dume's but with a different power.) I always imagined the mask shapes were usually consistent based on some decision by the mask makers to keep things organized, but it wasn't a steadfast rule. And that's why powerless Matoran masks could take on any shape, be it Great or Noble. (And it's not even like the sets stayed consistent; Toa Lhikan's 2004 Hau was a different shape than Tahu's classic Hau, but in the story they were essentially the same mask type.) Especially confusing since Lhikan’s great hau looked different than Tahu’s great Hau. Lhikan turned turaga (gold good guy) without the mask changing. That mask was then taken and given to Jaller where it suddenly looked like Tahu’s great hau. Maybe Lhikan was like Norik, and had a specially shaped Hau that wasn’t the standard shape. I think that would explain why it didn’t change shape from Toa to gold good guy (doesn’t explain why it changed in the movie, unless the movie is non-canon). This doesn’t however explain why it changed shape when given to Jaller.Gold Good Guy was originally just that: Gold Good Guy. The Hau did, in canon, change shape, but Gold Good Guy was created as a polybag. It isn't economical to produce a complete new mask for a battery pack bagged set. On top of that, Greg randomly decided that Gold Good Guy was Lhikan. For a little bit of background, check out Eljay's review on the set. It's possible that mask design varied slightly by island, like other things, such as food and society. Jaller's mask changed shape by the power of continuity. Edited March 10, 2018 by Downfall 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesy Mac n Cheese Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 (edited) A mask's shape can almost always be used to identify its power. The exceptions would be Norik's Pehkui, which was shaped like a Noble Kiril in honor of a past Toa who wore a Noble Kiril, Krakua's Suletu, which is shaped like a Hau for reasons I don't believe were ever revealed, the Hau-shaped Rua from the Power Pack (also unexplained, as a Hau isn't one of the Rua's components) and possibly some of the other Toa Hagah's masks (Iruini's Kualsi, I believe, was confirmed to actually be shaped like a Kualsi). The reason Lhikan's Hau is shaped differently than Tahu's is that different islands sometimes had different design standards. Why Lhikan's Noble Hau changed into the shape of a Metru Nui-style Great Hau when it was put on Jaller is a mystery for the ages... Edited March 16, 2018 by Cheesy Mac n Cheese 2 Quote My friend went to Po-Wahi and all I got was this lousy rock. Blue sea...a Ruki leaps...the sound of water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toa of Italy Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Mostly everything has already been said. The power of a Kanohi doesn't depend on its shape, but Great and Noble Kanohi with the same powers were in Metru Nui shaped the same way and powerless Kanohi made from the same Kanoka (albeit with a lower power rating) mirrored those shapes. Should a Matoran become a Toa, their mask, whether in the Noble or Great shape, will be transformed into a Great Kanohi with a Great Kanohi shape (larger and more elaborate than their Matoran mask, I should add). I would like however to discuss a point that haven't so far been mentioned. Did the mask makers know the power of a Kanohi when they chose a shape for it? In that case, why didn't Vakama know the mask powers of his team, even if they didn't know how to access them? Or was the shape decided solely on the Kanoka mix, even if they didn't know the power that came attached to it (possible, but strange; why would mask makers mass produce masks whose power they didn't even know)? True, as far as we saw only the six future Toa Metru wore the Great-shaped version of their masks, but the Noble shapes were widespread. Another possibility is that the masks of the future Toa Metru were not crafted by mask makers, but were created along with the Matoran themselves. We never actually understood whether newly-created Matoran already have masks (I always thought not, since what would be the point of mask making otherwise?). Another possibility is that the 12 original mask shapes were standard in Metru Nui, regardless of the Kanoka mix a particular mask used (but this was actually denied). 1 Quote My collection of epics: The Sanctum of Writing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesy Mac n Cheese Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 Hey Mr. Farshtey, long time fan here.Just got this question that's bothered me for a while. In Legends of Metru Nui (and the associated comics and books) the Toa Metru struggled to discover their mask powers. But... why? Surely, Vakama, a mask maker, would know the powers of all the masks they wore, and then it would be a simple process of focusing on the powers' activation. It could be that the 'activation' part was what they were really stuck on, but the dialogue made it seem like they truly didn't know what the powers were in the first place. What makes it more jarring is that Lhikan knew the powers of at least three of the six, and trained the Toa in the underground cell to realize these powers, even though Lhikan was not a mask maker himself. I am very grateful for your time on this chat Greg, it's amazing that you still come back to this two-year-long interview! Focusing on the powers' activation is not a simple process. It's like hitting a baseball -- it looks easy on the outside, but it's actually incredibly hard. As for your question, it was primarily a movie thing ... the discovery of the mask powers was all part and parcel of learning to be heroes, which is what the movie was about. This just means that there is no logical reason Vakama didn't recognize the masks, it was an oversight by the movie writers who weren't part of the regular story team. 2 Quote My friend went to Po-Wahi and all I got was this lousy rock. Blue sea...a Ruki leaps...the sound of water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuuli Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 If a matoran wore a great mask wouldn't the power be too much for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TERIDAX941 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 If a matoran wore a great mask wouldn't the power be too much for them?No, Kongu wore the great Suletu that he and his friends found on the way to Voya Nui via Karzahni, when the mad ruler was swapping out their masks. Kongu ditched the mask he was handed and put on the great mask. Before that time, I believe Hewkii put it on on a whim and noted that he could sense the power inside the mask, but since he was a matoran he couldn't tap into the power, which led to Takanuva testing it out. Kongu went on to wear that mask all the way up to their transformation into Inika without any noticeable side effects, so I'd state that Great kanohi are perfectly safe for Matoran to wear. 2 Quote Formerly Iron_Man5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakadoxMusic Posted July 1, 2018 Share Posted July 1, 2018 (edited) Or was the shape decided solely on the Kanoka mix, even if they didn't know the power that came attached to it (possible, but strange; why would mask makers mass produce masks whose power they didn't even know)? True, as far as we saw only the six future Toa Metru wore the Great-shaped version of their masks, but the Noble shapes were widespread. I could see this being a legitimate reason. All the masks being made were presumably for Matoran only, who couldn't access the masks' powers, so there would be no reason for the mask-making Matoran to know what they do either. It could be purposely a part of a Toa's destiny to discover what their Great mask does on their own so that they can learn how to control it. This would explain that last part, because even though the Toa did wear Great masks unrecognizable to them, they did actually meet up briefly before becoming Toa, so Vakama would have seen their Noble shapes anyway. Edit: Turns out I remembered incorrectly, as the Matoran also wore the Great shapes before becoming the Toa Metru. But even then, my point still stands, because no matter what the shape was, the Matoran couldn't access it as it was not truly a Great mask, it was simply a lower-level Matoran mask in the shape of a Great. Perhaps the mask makers just randomly chose to create a mask with either the "Noble" or "Great" shape, and considering that the shape of the mask doesn't have any relation to its power level, it could just be that the mask doesn't change shape when a Matoran becomes a Toa. I believe the Toa Metru were the only Toa we saw who had Matoran-level masks transformed into Great masks, so this could very well be the case. Edited July 1, 2018 by TakadoxMusic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podu Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 (edited) I've always imagined that in Metru Nui the shapes of Matoran Kanohi are a symbolism of their status/occupation (e.g. Vakama was granted a Great Huna for recognition of his outstanding Mask-Making abilities, Nuju was given a Great Matatu for the scope attachment to better serve his Scholar duties. Same goes to the other Toa Metru for various reasons.), while the 12 types of mask are for the common people like Ehyre. That would also explain why the Great Kanoka Matoran were so envious of the Toa of their respective Metru. As to why Vakama was surprised by their mask powers, I think it has more to do with that he has never seen the Kanohi in action than that he doesn't know their powers. Lihkan/Jaller's Noble Hau might be altered by Vakama off-screen to honor Toa Lihkan, or because stylized Kanohi reverts back to their original shape when worn by others. As for Matoran in Voya Nui, since they came from Karzahni and their original masks were replaced, I guess they just wear whatever was given to them lol. Perhaps those masks were Karzahni's failed attempts of re-creating the Mask of Creation, who knows? Edited July 2, 2018 by Podu Quote 99.9% of BIONICLE fans forgot about Podu. If you happen to be the 0.1% that still remember him, copy and paste this into your sig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchAngelleofJustice Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 That would also explain why the Great Kanoka Matoran were so envious of the Toa of their respective Metru.But the Kanoka Matoran were jealous because of the Toa Metru because they were more successful, not because of their masks. And if they got these great masks for achieving certain things, then surely they would know more about those masks? This seems backwards, because the Toa Metru were more-or-less regular Matoran. Vakama was the only one who spoke to Dume, and that was because he was a mask maker - a job that doesn't appear to have a very high social standing. Despite being probably the best mask maker in Metru Nui (hence Dume asking him to make the Mask of Time), the other Toa Metru look down upon Vakama for being a lowly mask maker. So why would a lowly mask maker have a Great Huna, *and* not know the power of a Great Huna? It seems more likely to me, that the twelve masks we see on Mata Nui were most likely the regular masks made on Metru Nui. I imagine that Vakama would know what those mask powers were, or at least the Great ones. I imagine Vakama received his Great Huna as a gift of sorts, perhaps a trade from a land to the South many years ago, and took it because it was an interesting mask that was unlike the ones he made. But he never got the chance to learn what power it had, and when the traders left and Metru Nui was sealed off from the lands to the South, he could never find out. Similar tales of the other Toa Metru receiving masks from another land or as a gift, that Vakama didn't make or know how to make, would make sense. It's still a little suspicious that everyone else on Mata Nui seems to have a different mask, but I can't explain that away. 1 Quote Stories I wrote Parts of a Whole Series: An Alternate EndingPart 1: Fight for Freedom Wisps of MemoryPart 2: Army of One (In Progress)Short Stories: The Great Takara Tale of the Toa Stones Masks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downfall Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 (edited) It's possible that the movie's producers or animators needed to make sure that the audience recognized that the Toa Metru were recognizably the same as their previous Matoran states. A mask is essentially their face, or what will be recognizably their face, for the entire movie. It wouldn't be the best if the main characters are unrecognizable so soon into the movie. Another curious facet of mask making: Vakama's attempts to create the Vahi failed, and the resulting masks broken, because he wasn't working with the best disks. How did he know what the mask was supposed to look like, as well as the disk combination? And why did the Vahi keep breaking, presumably due to disk purity, if mask shape doesn't matter? Edited July 4, 2018 by Downfall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podu Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) That would also explain why the Great Kanoka Matoran were so envious of the Toa of their respective Metru.But the Kanoka Matoran were jealous because of the Toa Metru because they were more successful, not because of their masks. And if they got these great masks for achieving certain things, then surely they would know more about those masks? This seems backwards, because the Toa Metru were more-or-less regular Matoran. Vakama was the only one who spoke to Dume, and that was because he was a mask maker - a job that doesn't appear to have a very high social standing. Despite being probably the best mask maker in Metru Nui (hence Dume asking him to make the Mask of Time), the other Toa Metru look down upon Vakama for being a lowly mask maker. So why would a lowly mask maker have a Great Huna, *and* not know the power of a Great Huna? It seems more likely to me, that the twelve masks we see on Mata Nui were most likely the regular masks made on Metru Nui. I imagine that Vakama would know what those mask powers were, or at least the Great ones. I imagine Vakama received his Great Huna as a gift of sorts, perhaps a trade from a land to the South many years ago, and took it because it was an interesting mask that was unlike the ones he made. But he never got the chance to learn what power it had, and when the traders left and Metru Nui was sealed off from the lands to the South, he could never find out. Similar tales of the other Toa Metru receiving masks from another land or as a gift, that Vakama didn't make or know how to make, would make sense. It's still a little suspicious that everyone else on Mata Nui seems to have a different mask, but I can't explain that away.Well I was trying to say that the Toa Metru were given special masks due to their success in their field, so that other Matoran can recognize it. Those Matoran would be *extra* jealous because of their special treatmemt. Sorry if I worded it poorly I think it is likely that he knows Huna is a Mask of Concealment, but he simply never saw it in action to know the full extent of its power. It's one thing to have knowledge on a subject and another to personally experience it. You could know all about the Higgs Boson particle but still be in awe of a particle accelerator in operation. Edited July 5, 2018 by Podu Quote 99.9% of BIONICLE fans forgot about Podu. If you happen to be the 0.1% that still remember him, copy and paste this into your sig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesy Mac n Cheese Posted July 8, 2018 Share Posted July 8, 2018 I don't think there was anything "special" about the masks worn by the Matoran who became the Toa Metru. It is quite possible that other Matoran wore the same shapes of masks, but we never saw them doing so. The Turaga brought a stockpile of Matoran masks to Mata Nui, and it's possible they couldn't obtain any in these shapes, so when the Matoran who shared mask shapes with them broke their masks, it would be replaced with one of the masks we saw in 2001-2003. It's also possible the Great shapes of their masks weren't popular, so they didn't make too many. Quote My friend went to Po-Wahi and all I got was this lousy rock. Blue sea...a Ruki leaps...the sound of water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakadoxMusic Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Another curious facet of mask making: Vakama's attempts to create the Vahi failed, and the resulting masks broken, because he wasn't working with the best disks. How did he know what the mask was supposed to look like, as well as the disk combination? And why did the Vahi keep breaking, presumably due to disk purity, if mask shape doesn't matter?Since the mask was known as a legend before its creation, perhaps it was just the shape known by its legend, if there were ever pictures made of it. Or maybe if the shape had never been theorized, Vakama just made it however he wanted to, if there was no preset guideline on how it should look. The Vahi attempts likely kept breaking because he wasn't using the right disks, not because of the shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkmatter Inika Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 The shape of a mask is purely cosmetic, the kanoka used to forge it are what give it its powers (or lack thereof). A powerless mask can become a great kanohi when its wearer is transformed into a Toa. Because the Bionicle lore is full of convoluted rules like that. Also, I imagine that its much cheaper for Lego to reuse old mask designs rather than create a bunch of new molds for the secondary characters. (2008-2009 not withstanding.) Quote "If every porkchop were perfect, we wouldn't have hotdogs." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesy Mac n Cheese Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 The shape of a mask is purely cosmeticBut as a rule, the mask’s design is set according to its power, Norik’s Pehkui and Krakua’s Suletu being the only known exceptions. Quote My friend went to Po-Wahi and all I got was this lousy rock. Blue sea...a Ruki leaps...the sound of water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downfall Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Another curious facet of mask making: Vakama's attempts to create the Vahi failed, and the resulting masks broken, because he wasn't working with the best disks. How did he know what the mask was supposed to look like, as well as the disk combination? And why did the Vahi keep breaking, presumably due to disk purity, if mask shape doesn't matter? Since the mask was known as a legend before its creation, perhaps it was just the shape known by its legend, if there were ever pictures made of it. Or maybe if the shape had never been theorized, Vakama just made it however he wanted to, if there was no preset guideline on how it should look. The Vahi attempts likely kept breaking because he wasn't using the right disks, not because of the shape.But why would the mask break, instead of becoming a Vahi shaped mask with the capabilities of say, a Hau? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesy Mac n Cheese Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 (edited) Another curious facet of mask making: Vakama's attempts to create the Vahi failed, and the resulting masks broken, because he wasn't working with the best disks. How did he know what the mask was supposed to look like, as well as the disk combination? And why did the Vahi keep breaking, presumably due to disk purity, if mask shape doesn't matter? Since the mask was known as a legend before its creation, perhaps it was just the shape known by its legend, if there were ever pictures made of it. Or maybe if the shape had never been theorized, Vakama just made it however he wanted to, if there was no preset guideline on how it should look. The Vahi attempts likely kept breaking because he wasn't using the right disks, not because of the shape.But why would the mask break, instead of becoming a Vahi shaped mask with the capabilities of say, a Hau?Because the script writers weren’t as in-tune with the story as we are. Think about it: those disks had ordinary Kanoka powers, and would have combined into a disk that made a mask with an ordinary power if their strength digits were 8 or below. But since their strength digits are 9, when they combine, they magically become a disk with a new, legendary power that has no relation to the powers of the original component disks. Doesn’t make much sense. Edited July 12, 2018 by Cheesy Mac n Cheese Quote My friend went to Po-Wahi and all I got was this lousy rock. Blue sea...a Ruki leaps...the sound of water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TERIDAX941 Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Think about it: those disks had ordinary Kanoka powers, and would have combined into a disk that made a mask with an ordinary power if their strength digits were 8 or below. But since their strength digits are 9, when they combine, they magically become a disk with a new, legendary power that has no relation to the powers of the original component disks.Doesn’t make much sense. Maybe no one ever tried to combine six disks of those particular powers? (As far fetched of a suggestion as that might be) With the general Kanohi-Kanoka chart, most combos are with 2-3 disks. Quote Formerly Iron_Man5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesy Mac n Cheese Posted July 13, 2018 Share Posted July 13, 2018 Think about it: those disks had ordinary Kanoka powers, and would have combined into a disk that made a mask with an ordinary power if their strength digits were 8 or below. But since their strength digits are 9, when they combine, they magically become a disk with a new, legendary power that has no relation to the powers of the original component disks.Doesn’t make much sense.Maybe no one ever tried to combine six disks of those particular powers? (As far fetched of a suggestion as that might be) With the general Kanohi-Kanoka chart, most combos are with 2-3 disks.I don’t have a source, but I once asked Greg about that. He said you can’t make a lower-level Mask of Time. Quote My friend went to Po-Wahi and all I got was this lousy rock. Blue sea...a Ruki leaps...the sound of water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Master of Energy Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 In the "Legends of Metru Nui" book, Vakama is trying to make the Vahi while still a Matoran. "Given that it was a Great Mask, he knew he would not be able to access its powers." It shows that Matoran can wear Great Kanohi, but simply cannot use them. Quote RPG Characters: Explota Akkitu MOCs: Toa Mata with 2015 Colors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Valjean Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 Woah, woah, woah...How is this topic the first time I have ever heard of "Gold Good Guy?" I lived through that era, and I was paying active attention to Bionicle, too. Had a Lhikan set, too. This slipped past my radar? As far as mask shapes go, shape doesn't determine power. Power doesn't determine shape. When you look at a few illustrations from various comics, you'll also see mask shapes here and there on Matoran that were never released on any set. A lot of masks existed, evidently. It's just that for the sake of the sets, certain masks are designed. These were toys, first and foremost. Greg had to work around that. 24601 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mukaukau Nuva Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 12 hours ago, Jean Valjean said: As far as mask shapes go, shape doesn't determine power. Power doesn't determine shape. Life gets a lot easier when you ignore Krakua and Toa Norik (or at least pretend he's Toa Dume like he was supposed to be). Without those two exceptions we wouldn't have a need for great debates over how power correlates to shape. What a coincidence these were both products of the limitations placed on set/MOC designers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Valjean Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 7 hours ago, Mukaukau Nuva said: Life gets a lot easier when you ignore Krakua and Toa Norik (or at least pretend he's Toa Dume like he was supposed to be). Without those two exceptions we wouldn't have a need for great debates over how power correlates to shape. What a coincidence these were both products of the limitations placed on set/MOC designers... I'd add Toa Lhikan, as everyone's been saying. It was definitely the first indication that shape might not correlate with power, although it was similar enough that you could assume that shapes could be approximated and still work. Later, it became real apparent with the Toa Ignika, when the Selutu's powers have been mentioned elsewhere, but it was also made clear that the shape of their masks was outside of the normal order of things. You might argue that this could buck the trend, since the creation of the masks was outside of the normal order of things as well, and this might have bypassed the requirement for them to conform to a specific shape. Then, the next year you ended up with the Mahri, and the shapes of all of their masks were specifically tailored to existence underwater, and that was the reason for their shape, not the correlation to their power. Although like Lhikan's Hau, one could interpret it such that apart from a different design aesthetic, the overall form of the Mahri's Kanohi were close approximations of their archetypal versions. So you'd think that we would then all apply the same standard to all masks that came about as a form of mutation or transformation. However, that is not the case. Early on, when the Toa became the Toa Nuva, it looked like their masks became randomly mutated. Yet, it wasn't actually random. As it turns out, that was apparently the timeless design, because there were other Kanohi Nuva scattered across the island, all with the same shapes. Therefore, we also cannot assume that all mutations result in established masks with altered physical forms. Sometimes a mutation will give you an established mask in its original form. Which is odd, for a mutation. If you want, I could continue overthinking things. It's interesting, though; that's one thing that I appreciated about Greg Farshtey and the other creators behind Bionicle, is that they generally thought through the complications of all of these technicalities that you could overthink, and they overthought them, too. For example, I was just looking up the Kanohi Mohtrek, and Greg thought through exactly how he wanted that sort of time travel to work. Stuff like that. So in spite of the continuity errors, which is what you're talking about, they did a pretty good job of knowing their nerds. 24601 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuragaNuva Posted September 18, 2019 Share Posted September 18, 2019 (edited) On 9/16/2019 at 2:05 AM, Jean Valjean said: So you'd think that we would then all apply the same standard to all masks that came about as a form of mutation or transformation. However, that is not the case. Early on, when the Toa became the Toa Nuva, it looked like their masks became randomly mutated. Yet, it wasn't actually random. As it turns out, that was apparently the timeless design, because there were other Kanohi Nuva scattered across the island, all with the same shapes. Therefore, we also cannot assume that all mutations result in established masks with altered physical forms. Sometimes a mutation will give you an established mask in its original form. Which is odd, for a mutation. Artakha made the other Kanohi Nuva and teleported them to hiding places on the island after the Toa Mata were transformed. So presumably they were modeled after the ones that were formed by the transformation. (personally, I like to ignore the fact that there were additional Kanohi Nuva at all - I prefer the idea that they had to share their mask powers after becoming Nuva. And after 2003 none of them used any of the other Kanohi Nuva they found anyway, so they don't really matter in the long run) Edited September 18, 2019 by TuragaNuva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Inika Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 My understanding was this: masks do not need to be shaped a certain way to work, but most are crafted that way so that, in a dire situation, a Toa can quickly pick the right one from a selection. Matoran can wear any mask to survive, they just can't access the powers of any mask. Even powerless Matoran masks are made the right shape just in case they ever become Great masks. However, the mask-shaping process is not necessarily uniform across the board. All the mask shapes we know are how they're made in Metru Nui. Lhikan's Hau looks different because he's from somewhere else. The Toa Hagah are an exception. In Legends of Metru Nui, Vakama doesn't know the mask powers simply because it made more sense thematically to have it be a complete mystery and go along with the "discovering your purpose" message. (Ex: Vakama experiences survivor guilt when Lhikan sacrifices himself and wishes he could have "disappeared" instead, and he does.) Imagine watching the movie for the first time as a kid and Vakama just looking at his mask and going, "Oh, it's going to let me turn invisible." Narrative tension lost. As for him being unable to make the Vahi at first, I'd assume it's because of the power contained in the disks as opposed to how it's being physically crafted. 1 Quote "You are an absolute in these uncertain times. Your past is forgotten, and your future is an empty book. You must find your own destiny, my brave adventurer." -- Turaga Nokama Click here to visit my library! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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