BZPRPG News and Discussion

[Keeper of Kraata]

Also, the 'innate magnetic field' think is only about as strong as a compass... and it can be turned off. If he wasn't too busy laughing, mind-controlling you, or laughing at you mentally while mind controlling you to call guards. I mean, I plan to have the Kalta go into the heart of darkness, and they've heard enough about Echelon that the only one that would want to get near the guy is Casanuva, and only then to gauge his powers.

 

that seems like kind of a little bit of a problem for your plan

are any of those masks but the huna and kualsi actually legal

 

- Indigo Individual

 

The Shelek is... vault loot. So... yeah.

[Hitoshura]

I wish Skyra knew what Helium was, then she'd make everyone talk in high pitched voices. 

Does the RPG universe have its own periodic table/elements thing?

[Snelly]

No I don't think it does, not sure why it would need one at this point in time. 

[Timageness]

There is a Shelek or two in the Vault Loot, so the only way someone could get one would be if they were working for/with Echelon or the Piraka.

Or if they were mercs.

[Nato G]

The Shelek is Vault Loot only, the Mahiki is outright banned, and the most powerful of the two Komau's currently in existence is on Echelon's face.

 

And even if you're wearing a Huna, people can still see your shadow, and hear you. Even a Kualsi won't do much good against all of Nightfall.

 

Face facts: right now, Echelon is nigh untouchable.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Roman Torchwick

[Keeper of Kraata]

*Clarification: they WILL see the Huna's shadow. It might be in complete darkness, but they will notice you.

 

On the one hand, I see the point you are trying to make: the good guys know where Echelon is. An assassination would seem simple. On the other hand, he is behind the largest concentration of villains beyond, what, the Rahkshi attacks?

[Eyru]

If you can make it past Eisen, Karnakie, Agrona, and Rorg, then you almost deserve to kill Echelon.

 

just sayin

[IcarusBen]

You could get a Shelek by killing whoever has one and taking theirs, trading for the Shelek or working with the Piraka then betraying them, though Staff might have an issue with that last one.

 

Actually, couldn't the Hiripaki simply put Echelon in the same place it put Makuta? Its owner is a good guy, correct? Echelon's enough of a threat that the use of the Hiripaki wouldn't be completely worthless.

 

Also, the Mahiki's banned? That's lame.

[Hitoshura]

If you can make it past Eisen, Karnakie, Agrona, and Rorg, then you almost deserve to kill Echelon.

 

just sayin

almost

[Nato G]

If Echelon was sent to The Legend, something equal to him would come through in his place.

 

I'd rather face the enemy I know than the one I don't.

[Keeper of Kraata]

You could get a Shelek by killing whoever has one and taking theirs, trading for the Shelek or working with the Piraka then betraying them, though Staff might have an issue with that last one.

 

Actually, couldn't the Hiripaki simply put Echelon in the same place it put Makuta? Its owner is a good guy, correct? Echelon's enough of a threat that the use of the Hiripaki wouldn't be completely worthless.

 

Also, the Mahiki's banned? That's lame.

 

1) Possible and possible, I suppose.

 

2) If I recall, there is a bit of equivalent exchange going on. You throw in Echelon (which still has the same logical issues that were brought up earlier), so you end up bringing something bad back.

 

3) And yes. Their powers were sort of confusing, and with the advent of the Dasaka, they had a better reason.

[Eyru]

 

 

3) And yes. Their powers were sort of confusing, and with the advent of the Dasaka, they had a better reason.

 

It was less "their powers were confusing" and more "people don't read the rules." The Mahiki was banned primarily because of player irresponsibility and incompetence.

[Razgriz]

If you can make it past Eisen, Karnakie, Agrona, and Rorg, then you almost deserve to kill Echelon.

 

just sayin

never forget the wall of the sanctum

 

he died for your sins

[Krayzikk]

There are two four problems with this theory:

1. Echelon could counter it, as Keeper has previously stated.

2. Toa of Air don't have control over specific atoms/molecules in the atmosphere around them; unless I'm wrong like before, you should treat them as if they were Toa of Wind or Vacuum instead.

3. You do know that you're forming a group of people to unrealistically combat one guy, right? The staff might have an issue with that.

4. For those Toa to even attempt that plan, they would have to weave their way through Ko-Koro, avoiding prison escapees, Makuta-worshippers, and the Brotherhood of Ak'rei'an, all of whom would be trying to kill them. I should also point out that they would have to sneak past all of that before they could even set their eyes on the Sanctum, and even if they did make it inside the place, they'd still have the entirety of Nightfall to deal with as well.

All in all though, I bet the widgets of all of all of my current characters that this team of unfortunate Toa doesn't even make it past the city gate after the time-skip occurs.

 

Timageness provides a pretty good analysis here.

 

Number three, in particular, is very important. There's a term for when one player makes a group of characters acting in a unit. We call them "fightbots", because like the computer phenomenon they're named after, they're not really... Real. They're not real characters, and most of the time you couldn't distinguish them from each other beyond a few basic character traits. For the simple reason that they have no characterization or identity outside of the group.

 

This isn't banned, but it's very, very heavily discouraged.

 

The theoretical group you're describing doesn't exist, Icarus. For it to exist, it would have to be created. And the creation of that group would be for the sole purpose of taking down Echelon. That's roughly the point where we the staff would have to draw a line and step in. It is perfectly fine to try and take on Echelon. In fact, we encourage players to band together and try to take back Ko-Koro. However, it's also true that doing that will be darn hard. I could go on about the sheer levels of opposition you'll face, but that takes more time than I want to devote.

 

On another note that I've seen brought up in this discussion...

 

It is very important to know that the actual scientific knowledge of Mata Nui is low. This is a society that, up until about an in-game year ago, was tribal. To say Middle Ages might fit a few traits better, but it would also be a large stretch of their knowledge. Toa with elements like plasma, gravity, and magnetism understand physics better than one would expect for this society, but it isn't academic knowledge. It's basic and rough approximations gained from trial and error. Echelon, to use the most extreme example, only knows what he knows because he devoted his time to the development of his powers to the exclusion of very much else. 

 

Superconductors, supercooling... This knowledge is almost nonexistent. Their society doesn't understand what a periodic table is, let alone the elements on it. 

[NorikSigma]

If you can make it past Eisen, Karnakie, Agrona, and Rorg, then you almost deserve to kill Echelon.

 

just sayin

B-but what about my Toa in Nightfall? :'c

Eh, he'd be curbstomped in a second.

 

Back on-topic, this whole theorycrafting is the kind of min-max powergaming that's unhealthy to the game. It's not supposed to be a game of who can out-fight each other, and anyway, it requires these characters to have a way higher knowledge and understanding of their powers than is realistic.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Tenth Norik

[Keeper of Kraata]

I'd like to imagine Su-Toa are the characters with the most know-how about 'elements', in that 'Well, this stuff can get really hot, this stuff is really bright, I can tweak this to be really cold, this one is white, this one is orange, this one is pink...' It just seems a bit unfair to limit an entire element to 'supermelty', when so much more fun (and non-combat) uses can be had with the element.

 

But yeah. No min-max powergaming please. If I wanted that, I'd go play a PbP Pathfinder game. This is a narrative game, first and foremost. I have been involved in two PvP fights, Casanuva vs Silo and Skorm vs ... lots*. The former was pretty straight-up; Silo ended up living, if in jail. He ended up being outnumbered, really. Had help not arrived, I don't doubt that somehow Casanuva would find some way to escape; I don't think either me or Sil went into that with serious intent to kill the other guy. The latter example was more narrative-driven, with me coordinating with most of the other players involved to find a way for it to work; still didn't go exactly according to plan, since without everyone else involved, it would have been a pretty bad fight for everyone else, given that Skorm knows their abilities and tactics. Ultimately, besides minor wounds, only 2 NPC casualties (a murdered Marine from earlier, and one that Skorm held hostage heavily injured).

 

*I'm not counting Skorm's encounter with either Zaktan nor the Abettor, since I gave control over to Nuju for Skorm's unwilling antidermis dosage, and the latter I had absolutely no control over.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Keeper of Kraata

[Silvan Haven]

There was something brought up in a Skype chat recently that has had me thinking for the past day.

 

How is Dark Magnetism different from Gravity?

[Keeper of Kraata]

Functionally, I believe it has the same effects, for the most part. Technically, it's accomplishing things in a far different manner. Magnetism, or at least Echelon's, seems to be far more precise than gravity; in addition, Gravity is forever constant, while magnetism must be created; the concentration required to make yourself float, for example, would be almost a no-brainer for Gravity, more difficult (though easy for Echelon) with Dark Magnetism.

[shadow pridak money gang]

Well, it isn't just three schlubs, it's the Kalta.

 

a rose by any other name

 

-Tyler

[Krayzikk]

I'd like to imagine Su-Toa are the characters with the most know-how about 'elements', in that 'Well, this stuff can get really hot, this stuff is really bright, I can tweak this to be really cold, this one is white, this one is orange, this one is pink...' It just seems a bit unfair to limit an entire element to 'supermelty', when so much more fun (and non-combat) uses can be had with the element.

 

When I say that science is at a certain level, I mean it for all elements.  If it's not something a Toa of Plasma could feasibly have figured out through trial and error, it ain't something they should know how to do. It's the burden that it must bear as a really, really ill-defined and complicated element.

 

Functionally, I believe it has the same effects, for the most part. Technically, it's accomplishing things in a far different manner. Magnetism, or at least Echelon's, seems to be far more precise than gravity; in addition, Gravity is forever constant, while magnetism must be created; the concentration required to make yourself float, for example, would be almost a no-brainer for Gravity, more difficult (though easy for Echelon) with Dark Magnetism.

 

There are a few effects Dark Magnetism can have that Gravity can't accomplish, but most importantly, it can accomplish many things more efficiently. While both could be used in many of the same ways, it's a lot easier for Magnetism to accomplish most of them. It basically adds (functionally) many powers traditionally associated with Gravity to all of those associated with Magnetism.

[Keeper of Kraata]

The staff's confidence in my abilities, openness, and respect for players like myself astounds me.

 

 

When I say that science is at a certain level, I mean it for all elements. If it's not something a Toa of Plasma could feasibly have figured out through trial and error, it ain't something they should know how to do. It's the burden that it must bear as a really, really ill-defined and complicated element.

... As long as Kalyss can keep her neon flares. I like the neon flares. As for the lack of versatility, I guess it's the price of having the sun in your hands.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Keeper of Kraata

[shadow pridak money gang]

I support Team Chump.

 

just not you.

 

-Tyler

[Keeper of Kraata]

I feel like I'm missing something here.

[soularin]

Since we're on the topic... What are the limitations of a normal Ba-Toa as compared to Echelon? I know that dark magnetism is more precise and can magnetize anything, basically. I guess I'm wondering if Toa of Gravity can do more than just strengthen or weaken the pull of gravity. I haven't ICed much use of the element myself, but I've always thought that they could redirect a pull or a push in any direction they see fit.

[Keeper of Kraata]

I think comparitively, the Ba-Toa's most unique power is affecting gravity wholesale, for an entire area. Skorm was a fan of reversing gravity under his feet to fall between the floor and ceiling. Doing something similar would probably be a lot more awkward for Magnetism to pull off, special variant or not.

[Silvan Haven]

All you would need to do is magnetize yourself to the ceiling, not exactly a hard trick.

[Keeper of Kraata]

But there is a difference between walking normally and attaching and detaching yourself to take a step.

[IcarusBen]

A challenger has appeared! 

 

Meet Adomai, a new Toa of Magnetism hoping to learn from the mighty Echelon himself. I'll be putting him in Ko-Wahi as soon as we hit the time skip. Armed with a trident/spear/thingy and a Kanohi Volitak, this surprisingly agile brute is a mighty assassin, known for the systematic killings of eight Skakdi raiders sometime ago, those responsible for the destruction of the (very tiny) village of Brandersport. Never heard of it? Exactly my point.

 

 Feel free to anger him, but be prepared for the consequences. He is the definition of awesome.

 

Well, no. There's Stannis, and Echelon, and the First Toa, and the Piraka, and... Okay, he's a definition of awesome. The one that reads "Isn't quite as awesome as all those people I just mentioned, but still pretty cool indeed."

[Razgriz]

I support Team Chump.

 

just not you.

 

-Tyler

#Chumps5Lyfe

 

its 1 more than 4 lyfe

[Timageness]

Can we please stay on topic?

[Nato G]

What was the topic? I think we've already more or less resolved the Dark Magnetism/Gravity question.

[Silvan Haven]

There were only two responses to Requiem's question. Still lots of room for discussion.

[NorikSigma]

Dark Magnetism has one weakness Gravity hasn't: it wears off.

 

But, it wears off gradually, while Gravity fields generated by the Toa disappears immediately once they stop adding Elemental Energy.

 

All I have to add.

 

(Also Dark Magnetism have VFX of smoky tendrils.)

[Palm]

 

B-but what about my Toa in Nightfall? :'c

 

That Griesk/Toros though.

 

Real talk, he's cool. Looking forward to more opportunities to RP with him through Agrona, and maybe others like him eventually

[25K Now!]

If you somehow managed to put in enough time and effort to create a fightbot unit that consisted of well-rounded, developed characters with their own distinct problems and what-not and had them band together roaming the world as a group of murderhobos, hats to you.

 

Brb doing that.

[IcarusBen]

Here's an interesting premise; take the six most powerful "good" Toa and pit them against the six most powerful "oh-my-god-run-away" Toa.

[EmperorWhenua]

We already did that when the Toa Maru went up against the First Toa. 

[Palm]

Oh, side-note on this whole "negating Echelon's powers" (science aside, it's pretty clear where staff stands on that)
 

I've seen a lot of combat appraisal for a number of characters recently (Dorian, Echelon, ect.), and although much of the praise is usually well-earned, I can't help but feel that's it's contributing to a mentality I think might become problematic.

 

Each time somebody says something along the lines of "I'm gonna fight X character", it's usually met with a lot of responses like "haha yeah, you do that". Which I get. But I really do feel like that's discouraging, which we shouldn't be doing! We say it's encouraged that people to take back Ko (or something like that) but much of our discussion revolving around specific characters seems to say a bit of the opposite - especially when it comes to newer players.

 

So I'll say a few things on this:
 

1. If you aren't too invested, just do it.
   
   Seriously, most of the more interesting interactions I've had with people are when players "fight thuh powah" so to speak. A while back, somebody tried to poison the water supply in Le-Koro and attack the guard HQ. What spurred of it was some great responses from Le-Koro that nobody would have ever gotten a chance to play out or see if the situation hadn't arisen. This is  good because it changes the pace of the game and changes the setting a bit.
    
2. If you are invested, come up with a good plan, and then just do it.
   
   Yes, Nightfall are powerful - even without the added tech and powers - as they were created to compliment one another as a team, each one fulfilling some roles in combat that others might not. We saw this especially when there were attacks coming towards them from all sides, and characters had to swap positions or deal with certain threats. The design process for this team took a good while because we wanted to create an interesting cast of characters that could truly become a formidable threat (note how we wanted them to be interesting before being a game-piece in the RPG).
   
   But, while we planned out the team and planned out how taking Ko-Koro could work out, you can plan too. And it isn't that staff doesn't believe that - we know they do - but I just feel like it isn't said often enough.
   
   Some advice on planning:
   Try to avoid being super specific. Trying to figure out how to negate Echelon's powers is certainly a great idea in theory (especially considering how powerful those powers are), but in practice there are many issues. There are many other close members of his team - Rorg, Karnakie, Eisen, Agrona, and Kohra - all of which are willing to kill anybody that threatens a member of their team (not to mention their leader). Think about how to deal with more variables like teammates, and even consider that there's many followers of Echelon aside from his inner circle. Being a bit more general usually works a lot better when it comes to character(s) vs character(s). Don't just think about Echelon's powers. Think about the dynamic of your opposing team, potential situations, how to one-up the enemy ect. Not to say that something like this would be impossible, it's just very difficult. Tackle each issue that stands in the way of your goal the best you can.

But yeah, don't let the powers of other characters get in the way of you doing something interesting. Do something interesting!

Obviously, this doesn't mean you should just willy-nilly "LOL RANDOM WOW, ALRIGHTALRIGHTALRIGHT GONNA BLOW UP THIS NOW HAHAHA" because 9/10 it's really out of place and out of character (unless you've got a character reason, it's usually pretty darn annoying).

just my two cents though

i just hang out here, so take everything with a grain of salt

EDIT:
Another note here, I think I can speak for all of the Nightfall players that we want to see you try to break our characters. We didn't make them for nothing you know

Edited December 4, 2014 by Palm

[Nato G]

I recall a situation a while back when I had a team of Toa intending to blow up the Ko-Koro hospital (they had a justified reason to do this).

 

The advice I was given - from staff members and other experienced players - was to always run that kind of plan by someone first, and not to "just do it".

 

This was back when I was a lowly noob, and I never did blow up that hospital...

[Palm]

Well obviously if you're doing stuff that requires staff permission (like destroying landmarks or other important architecture) then you need staff permission to do it at all. That goes without saying, or at least should.

 

EDIT:
Also, when I say just do it, I don't mean just do things on a whim. You obviously should think about it first (and if it isn't already rule-breaking), running things by a friend helps you figure out if your plan is functional or ok to do or not.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Palm