

Major Confusions On Elements?
#1
Posted May 27 2012 - 05:06 PM

#2
Posted May 27 2012 - 05:45 PM
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#3
Posted May 28 2012 - 10:42 AM
#4
Posted May 28 2012 - 06:39 PM
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#5
Posted May 28 2012 - 07:08 PM
Well, you would think they could just up an mind control their enemy or whatever. But it might be possible. Maybe hypnosis only works depending on one's belief in hypnosis (I hear that there is a similar such case in real life). Then again, would that be allowed considering there is already a mind control mask? Not sure.I've been wondering about how some subpowers relate to their elements. Specifically, would a Toa of Psionics have hypnosis, as it is a subpower of psionics?
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#6
Posted May 29 2012 - 04:52 AM
I remember reading on the wiki that the subpower of psionics was natural mind shielding.Light is quite simple if you think about it, but how shadow worked always confused me. Was it an energy or matter attack? Because I've seen it both ways. And if it is an energy attack, how would it work? Shadow by our definition has a lack of energy. Maybe it was manipulation of a dark matter like substance, I don't think anyone honestly would know though. Other things were general questions like what the subpowers of plasma, plantlife, gravity and magnetism would be and the difference between iron and magnetism, because if you think about it they are remarkably similar, and how light and shadow related to inner light and shadow, if they related at all.I've been wondering about how some subpowers relate to their elements. Specifically, would a Toa of Psionics have hypnosis, as it is a subpower of psionics?
Edited by High Voltage, May 29 2012 - 04:54 AM.
#7
Posted May 29 2012 - 08:02 AM
First off the one mask power you are talking about is from Komau. Komau is basically like the sub-power of psionics except turned in to a mask same thing with Mahiki because toa of psionics have illusion powers as well.Well, you would think they could just up an mind control their enemy or whatever. But it might be possible. Maybe hypnosis only works depending on one's belief in hypnosis (I hear that there is a similar such case in real life). Then again, would that be allowed considering there is already a mind control mask? Not sure.I've been wondering about how some subpowers relate to their elements. Specifically, would a Toa of Psionics have hypnosis, as it is a subpower of psionics?
#8
Posted May 29 2012 - 09:14 AM
#9
Posted May 29 2012 - 11:31 AM
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#10
Posted May 29 2012 - 11:36 AM
Ice is the classic version of a "decrease temperature" element, and Bionicle tends to stick with the classic elements - all of the other six original elements are classic elements.I doubt Toa of Water can melt ice directly. They might be able to pour water on it and melt ice, but that's time consuming.Toa of Water can manipulate liquid protodermis. That's what "water" is. Other elements manipulate different forms of protodermis.Yes, Toa of Water can drain an area - that's an absorption of their element, which they can do.Ok, why is there an ice element? Ice is only a forzen version of water, so shouldn't Toa of water be able to manipulate it? Can Toa of Water melt ice? And because all "water" in the Matoran auaniverse is protodermis, shouldn't Toa of Water be able to manipulate other forms of protodermis? Also, can Toa of Water drain an area?
#11
Posted May 29 2012 - 04:27 PM
Edited by Toa Sonis, May 29 2012 - 04:28 PM.
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#12
Posted May 29 2012 - 04:32 PM
1) Well, Jovan was created which he contributed to the story which had to make Magnetism an element.2) Acid is not an element and no Toa or Matoran can get it. It's considered a power, not an element. Kinda like telepotation, which is a power not an element.Two (well, three) questions:1) Why is Magnetism an element? I know it's a Makuta power, but why a Toa power?2) Is Acid a subpower of anything, an actual element, or just a power?Okay fine, I only had two questions after all. Whatever.
Edited by Gravity Caiox, May 29 2012 - 04:35 PM.
#13
Posted May 29 2012 - 04:46 PM
So Fire Toa can make ice, and vice versa?[snip]Yes, Toa of Water can drain an area - that's an absorption of their element, which they can do.
#14
Posted May 29 2012 - 05:04 PM
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#15
Posted May 29 2012 - 05:05 PM
Technically, they aren't making it, it's a by-product of them absorbing all the heat.So Fire Toa can make ice, and vice versa?[snip]Yes, Toa of Water can drain an area - that's an absorption of their element, which they can do.
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#16
Posted May 29 2012 - 05:24 PM
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#17
Posted May 29 2012 - 05:31 PM
Yes. Vakama absorbed enough heat in one instance to freeze over a being of fire. It's harder for Toa of Fire to make ice, but they can do it. On the other hand, absorbing cold will give you heat, but no amount of absorbing cold will ever give you fire.So Fire Toa can make ice, and vice versa?[snip]Yes, Toa of Water can drain an area - that's an absorption of their element, which they can do.
#18
Posted May 29 2012 - 07:07 PM
Unless there is a combustible material nearby.Yes. Vakama absorbed enough heat in one instance to freeze over a being of fire. It's harder for Toa of Fire to make ice, but they can do it.On the other hand, absorbing cold will give you heat, but no amount of absorbing cold will ever give you fire.So Fire Toa can make ice, and vice versa?[snip]Yes, Toa of Water can drain an area - that's an absorption of their element, which they can do.
#19
Posted May 29 2012 - 07:42 PM
Fire is a specific chemical reaction with a very specific catalyst, commonly known as a spark.Which, I guess, is a tiny portion of superheated air. I suppose it's possible to drain cold out of a very small portion of air, but it would be extremely hard (mentally speaking) to maintain that kind of control. Probably much easier to pass the flint or call up your resident Toa of Fire.Unless there is a combustible material nearby.Yes. Vakama absorbed enough heat in one instance to freeze over a being of fire. It's harder for Toa of Fire to make ice, but they can do it.On the other hand, absorbing cold will give you heat, but no amount of absorbing cold will ever give you fire.So Fire Toa can make ice, and vice versa?[snip]Yes, Toa of Water can drain an area - that's an absorption of their element, which they can do.

#20
Posted May 29 2012 - 08:18 PM
I was already aware of the mask, and not asking if such a mask existed or what the mask was. I also remember the answer to my own question, it is that it maybe possible considering there are elemental masks (such as ones worn by Hewkii, Takanuva, and Teridax).First off the one mask power you are talking about is from Komau. Komau is basically like the sub-power of psionics except turned in to a mask same thing with Mahiki because toa of psionics have illusion powers as well.Well, you would think they could just up an mind control their enemy or whatever. But it might be possible. Maybe hypnosis only works depending on one's belief in hypnosis (I hear that there is a similar such case in real life). Then again, would that be allowed considering there is already a mind control mask? Not sure.I've been wondering about how some subpowers relate to their elements. Specifically, would a Toa of Psionics have hypnosis, as it is a subpower of psionics?
I suspect that a toa of ice probably might be able to melt ice, but probably not in the way Vakama froze the air around him. If it goes by real science then simply absorbing all cold will not generate heat as heat is the presence of energy and cold is the lack of it. Then again, science has not been totally relevant in elemental power use, such as a character (forgot who) who could still use fire under water (although there are certain types of fire that cannot be put out by water, such as a nuclear meltdown).Ok, why is there an ice element? Ice is only a forzen version of water, so shouldn't Toa of water be able to manipulate it? Can Toa of Water melt ice? And because all "water" in the Matoran auaniverse is protodermis, shouldn't Toa of Water be able to manipulate other forms of protodermis? Also, can Toa of Water drain an area?
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#21
Posted May 29 2012 - 09:25 PM
#22
Posted May 29 2012 - 10:30 PM
Edited by Kumata, May 29 2012 - 10:31 PM.
#23
Posted May 30 2012 - 06:53 AM
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#24
Posted May 30 2012 - 12:49 PM
#25
Posted May 30 2012 - 12:58 PM
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#26
Posted May 30 2012 - 01:19 PM
First, this would be best in a separate thread, since Kanohi are not normally Elemental in power, and these two are definitely not Elements.Now, the major difference is that levitation is just a matter of going straight up and down. It's floating and hovering; it allows for static hovering like a helicopter. A character with a Mask of Levitation needs an external force to go anywhere but up. Flight, on the other hand, is exactly what it should sound like: flying up, down, left, right, forward, and so on. The difference is basically the range of motion.~ BioGioThis is more related to Kanohi, but you might want to also talk about the differences between the mask of levitation and the mask of flight.
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#27
Posted Jun 01 2012 - 11:39 PM
#28
Posted Jun 02 2012 - 06:45 AM
Sure it makes sense. There are infinite possible protodermic powers. Powers are normally divided into elemental powers (Fire, Water, etc.), or non-elements. It makes sense that somewhere in the infinite variety there would be some that just use portions of abilities from the elements. :)Cyclone for example is a specific ability within the range of Air. But Air lets you do with air whatever you imagine, like making a straight-line wind, absorb some, make new, etc. That's basically how all sub-powers compared to full elements work. :)And Vacuum is a sub-power technically of any element as it's the absence of all. Levhak-Kal could absorb specifically air, so his was sort of a sub of Air, but he could also hold air out of an area, which is hard for a Toa to do without something like a wall, so it's more like a mix of a sub-power and a different power altogether. I'd called it a mixed power."Several powers exist that involve manipulating only a certain portion of an Elemental Power." But does this really make sense? Cyclone is basically the same power as Air, only a more limited version at that.
I'm not following how you figure. That's the definition of sub-power. It's one thing a Toa could do, but for the sub-power user it's all he can do. That's what the word means.If there was a being (or a mask power) somewhere in the MU that could make a giant hand of fire (and that's literally all he could do. He couldn't manipulate normal fire like a Toa could), should "Hand of Fire" be considered a sub-power? It just doesn't seem right.

Edited by bonesiii, Jun 02 2012 - 06:49 AM.
#29
Posted Jun 02 2012 - 07:39 AM
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#30
Posted Jun 02 2012 - 09:13 AM
Well, no. The Great Beings created only those elements, so no Toa of Liquid Nitrogen. But however, it may be possible for say maybe a Toa of Ice to control Liquid Nitrogen since it is a form of ice right?~GravityWould it at all be possible for any elemental power wielding species to have elements, say, from the periodic table?Just think, a toa of liquid nitrogen.Able to make gummie bears freeze and crumble, old pennies dissolve and be incredibly cold!...But is it possble?
Edited by Gravity Caiox, Jun 02 2012 - 09:14 AM.
#31
Posted Jun 02 2012 - 12:54 PM
Nope. Ice is frozen water (H2O) or Protodermis, and liquid nitrogen is, well, nitrogen (N2).Had the GBs made the choice to make such an Element, then it would exist. But we currently know all of the different Elements; that's not going to change, according to Greg.~ BioGioLiquid Nitrogen [...] is a form of ice right?
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#32
Posted Jun 02 2012 - 10:56 PM
Not in the MU; see above post. But hypothetically, if the GBs had wanted to make such powers, they could have. And it's possible that such powers might even be in the infinite range of protodermic powers. The only problem with that is that protodermic powers always seem to be about controlling types of protodermis or matter interchangeably, and a Toa of specific atomic elements might only work with Spherus Magna (normal) matter.So considering the GBs did not make such powers to our knowledge, the best we can say is it's possible but probably nonexistent.I did ask Greg once though about if there could have been other elements such as Gold or Silver, with different properties from normal metals (whether protogold or real gold for example) and he confirmed it is plausible (but of course wasn't used in the canon). We based several Expanded Multiverse elements on that concept, including Gold and Silver themselves. For example Gold is highly malleable and looks like real gold even though in the EM it's all protodermis, and silver is the type of protodermis that can channel or hold powers, like Toa Tools, etc.So within fanfics, elements that are more directly inspired by the periodic table but are mainly protodermic are possible.Would it at all be possible for any elemental power wielding species to have elements, say, from the periodic table?Just think, a toa of liquid nitrogen.Able to make gummie bears freeze and crumble, old pennies dissolve and be incredibly cold!...But is it possble?

The key word there is liquid, but ice is solid, so no, that's impossible, sorry. Perhaps if there is a lot of nitrogen in the air like in the real world they might be able to liquefy it with intense cold, I suppose. They wouldn't be able to control it, though.But however, it may be possible for say maybe a Toa of Ice to control Liquid Nitrogen since it is a form of ice right?~Gravity
#33
Posted Jun 06 2012 - 02:35 PM
#34
Posted Jun 06 2012 - 02:57 PM

#35
Posted Jun 06 2012 - 03:15 PM
Well when you think of it Lava is burnt rock so I believe a toa of fire and stone could both control it together.If your belief was true, maybe, but sand is an entirely different element, and lava cannot be controlled by Toa of Fire.
#36
Posted Jun 06 2012 - 03:17 PM
Somewhat similar to what Hakaan and Avak did on Voya Nui with that magma... golem... thing.Well when you think of it Lava is burnt rock so I believe a toa of fire and stone could both control it together.If your belief was true, maybe, but sand is an entirely different element, and lava cannot be controlled by Toa of Fire.
Edited by Outler, Jun 06 2012 - 03:20 PM.
#37
Posted Jun 06 2012 - 03:38 PM
I believe that Tahu and Onua controlled lava in the first book (by Hapka) when they were under Mangai.(Also, rock cannot be "burnt," as it's inorganic.)~ BioGioWell when you think of it Lava is burnt rock so I believe a toa of fire and stone could both control it together.If your belief was true, maybe, but sand is an entirely different element, and lava cannot be controlled by Toa of Fire.
"You're a scientist? The proposal you make violates parsimony; it introduces extra unknowns without proof for them. One might as well say unicorns power it."
#38
Posted Jun 06 2012 - 03:43 PM
Alright, so I guess it's a combined power b/t two elements, and fire is one of them. I seem to be forgetting that scene in the Hapka book, though. Could you clarify? Is it towards the end of the book?I believe that Tahu and Onua controlled lava in the first book (by Hapka) when they were under Mangai.(Also, rock cannot be "burnt," as it's inorganic.)~ BioGioWell when you think of it Lava is burnt rock so I believe a toa of fire and stone could both control it together.If your belief was true, maybe, but sand is an entirely different element, and lava cannot be controlled by Toa of Fire.
#39
Posted Jun 06 2012 - 04:09 PM
Edited by The Iron Toa, Jun 06 2012 - 04:11 PM.
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#40
Posted Jun 07 2012 - 04:00 PM
I'm almost certain it's while they're under Mangai and making their way to Makuta's lair (and possibly during the Shadow Toa fight)--very close to the end of the book. I can try to look it up, but I'll have to do a lot of digging for the book (and the sceneI seem to be forgetting that scene in the Hapka book, though. Could you clarify? Is it towards the end of the book?

Edited by BioGio, Jun 07 2012 - 04:00 PM.
"You're a scientist? The proposal you make violates parsimony; it introduces extra unknowns without proof for them. One might as well say unicorns power it."
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