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Major Confusions On Elements?


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#1 Online bonesiii

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Posted May 27 2012 - 05:06 PM

It's become clear to me that, although I don't want to make an all-inclusive official topic on elements, there are some frequently asked questions that an Official Elements Guide Topic (mainly serving as a factlist) could help with. So I've decided to do that with a FAQ.So this topic here is research for that topic. Post what major questions on elements have confused you or that you've often seen others confused on, and feel free to post the answers to others' or your own questions here too. I may quote from this topic, giving credit, for the official topic. :)NOTE: One thing I'm already sure needs included is already being discussed here: What Exactly Are The Difference Between Stone And Earth Elements? -- so leave that out of here please. But confusion along those lines is the sort of thing I'm talking about, or anything else that majorly confuses you that may have a canon answer or even a probable theory.
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#2 Offline Infrared

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Posted May 27 2012 - 05:45 PM

It seems like a common misconception that Stone users can control sand, which they cannot, so that might be good to include. In addition, I think that although not as commonly asked, it might be good to mention the differences between Magnetism and Iron, as well as the fact that under normal circumstances a Lightning wielder cannot control Magnetism and vice versa. I think that a point about the moral balance of Light and Shadow might be useful as well, although it seems like people find it less interesting now than they did before the forum archival, and are consequently less confused by it now because they don't think about it as often as they used to.
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#3 Offline Turaga of Force

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Posted May 28 2012 - 10:42 AM

Some people may be confused about Lehvak, assuming them to be Bohrok of air though they are actually Bohrok of acid.There also seems to be confusion about the nature of the light and shadow elements, especially since Takanuva and Makuta have elemental light/shadow powers and Kanohi light/shadow powers. You may want to include the difference between Takanuva's and Avohkii's powers, and Teridax's and Kraahkan's powers.Stone versus rock (same thing, stone in MU, rock on Spherus Magna)Jungle vesus The Green versus Plant Life (same as above--Jungle on SM, The Green in MU, plant life as a sort of unofficial name if I remember correctly)
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#4 Offline Baron Von Nebula

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Posted May 28 2012 - 06:39 PM

I've been wondering about how some subpowers relate to their elements. Specifically, would a Toa of Psionics have hypnosis, as it is a subpower of psionics?
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#5 Offline The Lord Of Wednesday

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Posted May 28 2012 - 07:08 PM

I've been wondering about how some subpowers relate to their elements. Specifically, would a Toa of Psionics have hypnosis, as it is a subpower of psionics?

Well, you would think they could just up an mind control their enemy or whatever. But it might be possible. Maybe hypnosis only works depending on one's belief in hypnosis (I hear that there is a similar such case in real life). Then again, would that be allowed considering there is already a mind control mask? Not sure.

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#6 Offline High Voltage

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Posted May 29 2012 - 04:52 AM

I've been wondering about how some subpowers relate to their elements. Specifically, would a Toa of Psionics have hypnosis, as it is a subpower of psionics?

I remember reading on the wiki that the subpower of psionics was natural mind shielding.Light is quite simple if you think about it, but how shadow worked always confused me. Was it an energy or matter attack? Because I've seen it both ways. And if it is an energy attack, how would it work? Shadow by our definition has a lack of energy. Maybe it was manipulation of a dark matter like substance, I don't think anyone honestly would know though. Other things were general questions like what the subpowers of plasma, plantlife, gravity and magnetism would be and the difference between iron and magnetism, because if you think about it they are remarkably similar, and how light and shadow related to inner light and shadow, if they related at all.

Edited by High Voltage, May 29 2012 - 04:54 AM.

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#7 Offline Damaracx Caratas Xarian

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Posted May 29 2012 - 08:02 AM

I've been wondering about how some subpowers relate to their elements. Specifically, would a Toa of Psionics have hypnosis, as it is a subpower of psionics?

Well, you would think they could just up an mind control their enemy or whatever. But it might be possible. Maybe hypnosis only works depending on one's belief in hypnosis (I hear that there is a similar such case in real life). Then again, would that be allowed considering there is already a mind control mask? Not sure.

First off the one mask power you are talking about is from Komau. Komau is basically like the sub-power of psionics except turned in to a mask same thing with Mahiki because toa of psionics have illusion powers as well.

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#8 Offline Indigogeek

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Posted May 29 2012 - 09:14 AM

Ok, why is there an ice element? Ice is only a forzen version of water, so shouldn't Toa of water be able to manipulate it? Can Toa of Water melt ice? And because all "water" in the Matoran auaniverse is protodermis, shouldn't Toa of Water be able to manipulate other forms of protodermis? Also, can Toa of Water drain an area?
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#9 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted May 29 2012 - 11:31 AM

Toa of Ice can freeze things, Toa of Water can't. I don't know if Toa of Water can change the temperature of their element, but they can't create it and manipulate it as a solid. I think they can absorb water vapor, but I think that's the limit of control they have over non-liquid water without combining their powers with another Toa. Consider how Toa of Stone can't control lava. In the same way, Toa of Ice can't control the molten version of their element. By extension, I'd also guess Toa of Iron can't control molten metal. And since almost everything in the Matoran Universe is made of protodermis, there are many types of protodermis, and so certain elements can only control certain types of it. As for draining, Toa of Water can absorb their element if that's what you mean, but like other Toa, they'd have to release what they absorbed.
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#10 Offline fishers64

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Posted May 29 2012 - 11:36 AM

Ok, why is there an ice element? Ice is only a forzen version of water, so shouldn't Toa of water be able to manipulate it? Can Toa of Water melt ice? And because all "water" in the Matoran auaniverse is protodermis, shouldn't Toa of Water be able to manipulate other forms of protodermis? Also, can Toa of Water drain an area?

Ice is the classic version of a "decrease temperature" element, and Bionicle tends to stick with the classic elements - all of the other six original elements are classic elements.I doubt Toa of Water can melt ice directly. They might be able to pour water on it and melt ice, but that's time consuming.Toa of Water can manipulate liquid protodermis. That's what "water" is. Other elements manipulate different forms of protodermis.Yes, Toa of Water can drain an area - that's an absorption of their element, which they can do.

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#11 Offline Toa Sonis

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Posted May 29 2012 - 04:27 PM

Two (well, three) questions:1) Why is Magnetism an element? I know it's a Makuta power, but why a Toa power?2) Is Acid a subpower of anything, an actual element, or just a power?Okay fine, I only had two questions after all. Whatever.

Edited by Toa Sonis, May 29 2012 - 04:28 PM.

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#12 Offline Phantomesque

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Posted May 29 2012 - 04:32 PM

Two (well, three) questions:1) Why is Magnetism an element? I know it's a Makuta power, but why a Toa power?2) Is Acid a subpower of anything, an actual element, or just a power?Okay fine, I only had two questions after all. Whatever.

1) Well, Jovan was created which he contributed to the story which had to make Magnetism an element.2) Acid is not an element and no Toa or Matoran can get it. It's considered a power, not an element. Kinda like telepotation, which is a power not an element.

Edited by Gravity Caiox, May 29 2012 - 04:35 PM.

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#13 Offline Dralcax

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Posted May 29 2012 - 04:46 PM

[snip]Yes, Toa of Water can drain an area - that's an absorption of their element, which they can do.

So Fire Toa can make ice, and vice versa?

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#14 Offline Katuko

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Posted May 29 2012 - 05:04 PM

They can absorb heat to a certain point. Vakama did so in one of the books, but I can't remember if it ever got to the point of things starting to freeze over. Once a Toa absorbs enough energy they have to let it go again, after all, so it might be that they simply can't do it fast enough or in large enough amounts to go past 0 degrees.
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#15 Offline T.B.O.C

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Posted May 29 2012 - 05:05 PM

[snip]Yes, Toa of Water can drain an area - that's an absorption of their element, which they can do.

So Fire Toa can make ice, and vice versa?

Technically, they aren't making it, it's a by-product of them absorbing all the heat.

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#16 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted May 29 2012 - 05:24 PM

Lhikan froze a pillar of water in the Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet. So that's possible for a skilled enough Toa of Fire.
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#17 Offline fishers64

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Posted May 29 2012 - 05:31 PM

[snip]Yes, Toa of Water can drain an area - that's an absorption of their element, which they can do.

So Fire Toa can make ice, and vice versa?

Yes. Vakama absorbed enough heat in one instance to freeze over a being of fire. It's harder for Toa of Fire to make ice, but they can do it. On the other hand, absorbing cold will give you heat, but no amount of absorbing cold will ever give you fire.

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#18 Offline Turaga of Force

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Posted May 29 2012 - 07:07 PM

[snip]Yes, Toa of Water can drain an area - that's an absorption of their element, which they can do.

So Fire Toa can make ice, and vice versa?

Yes. Vakama absorbed enough heat in one instance to freeze over a being of fire. It's harder for Toa of Fire to make ice, but they can do it.On the other hand, absorbing cold will give you heat, but no amount of absorbing cold will ever give you fire.

Unless there is a combustible material nearby.

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#19 Offline fishers64

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Posted May 29 2012 - 07:42 PM

[snip]Yes, Toa of Water can drain an area - that's an absorption of their element, which they can do.

So Fire Toa can make ice, and vice versa?

Yes. Vakama absorbed enough heat in one instance to freeze over a being of fire. It's harder for Toa of Fire to make ice, but they can do it.On the other hand, absorbing cold will give you heat, but no amount of absorbing cold will ever give you fire.

Unless there is a combustible material nearby.

Fire is a specific chemical reaction with a very specific catalyst, commonly known as a spark.Which, I guess, is a tiny portion of superheated air. I suppose it's possible to drain cold out of a very small portion of air, but it would be extremely hard (mentally speaking) to maintain that kind of control. Probably much easier to pass the flint or call up your resident Toa of Fire. :)

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#20 Offline The Lord Of Wednesday

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Posted May 29 2012 - 08:18 PM

I've been wondering about how some subpowers relate to their elements. Specifically, would a Toa of Psionics have hypnosis, as it is a subpower of psionics?

Well, you would think they could just up an mind control their enemy or whatever. But it might be possible. Maybe hypnosis only works depending on one's belief in hypnosis (I hear that there is a similar such case in real life). Then again, would that be allowed considering there is already a mind control mask? Not sure.

First off the one mask power you are talking about is from Komau. Komau is basically like the sub-power of psionics except turned in to a mask same thing with Mahiki because toa of psionics have illusion powers as well.

I was already aware of the mask, and not asking if such a mask existed or what the mask was. I also remember the answer to my own question, it is that it maybe possible considering there are elemental masks (such as ones worn by Hewkii, Takanuva, and Teridax).

Ok, why is there an ice element? Ice is only a forzen version of water, so shouldn't Toa of water be able to manipulate it? Can Toa of Water melt ice? And because all "water" in the Matoran auaniverse is protodermis, shouldn't Toa of Water be able to manipulate other forms of protodermis? Also, can Toa of Water drain an area?

I suspect that a toa of ice probably might be able to melt ice, but probably not in the way Vakama froze the air around him. If it goes by real science then simply absorbing all cold will not generate heat as heat is the presence of energy and cold is the lack of it. Then again, science has not been totally relevant in elemental power use, such as a character (forgot who) who could still use fire under water (although there are certain types of fire that cannot be put out by water, such as a nuclear meltdown).

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#21 Online bonesiii

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Posted May 29 2012 - 09:25 PM

I'll give more detail on the canon answers to some of the above in the actual official topic, but some things I don't think we have answers on -- might be my bad memory so if anyone knows for sure say so. :)About Ice and melting, the Ice element is primarily a fictional energy called cold energy (and Shadow is shadow energy). It drains heat (and Shadow drains light). As far as I know it's never been clearly confirmed that Kopaka absorbing cold from ice would melt it in a cold environment. It's possible. But if he was already in a warm environment, then yes, he should be able to speed up the melting by absorbing cold energy. This would allow surrounding heat to move in to replace it faster. So in those environments, he could definitely make liquid water (but once it was liquid he couldn't control it).As for Psionics, Greg confirmed that many related Kanohi powers, including at least Telekinesis, are elemental sub-powers of that element. I don't specifically recall if Mind Control was one of them, but I presume so...The only way I can see Kopaka positively causing fire is if he has frozen something flammable near lava, and removes the ice (water and cold), allowing it to ignite naturally. Otherwise, he might not be able to cause a higher than average concentration of heat, unlike what Vakama can do in reverse for freezing. This might be debatable IF normal temperature is ALWAYS a balance of cold and heat energy. Then perhaps Kopaka actually could remove a natural amount of cold energy to cause ignition, but to my knowledge this has never been canonically confirmed, and it would create all kinds of extra confusion in other situations, so I lean against it.Also, Vakama cannot make ice unless there is water present. He can only create a lack of heat, which is normal (real-world style) cold, which can freeze any water that's already there.To all "why is there this element when there's already this similar one?" questions, like Magnetics vs. Iron and Ice vs. Water (Earth, etc.), the canon answer is that the elements were chosen by the Great Beings (and by LEGO) to give control over major "aspects of nature" that are important to the Matoran's homes, etc. in the domes, and to the function and design of the Great Spirit robot they live in.For example, Ice and Water only seem very similar to us because he have a scientific mindset, while to the Matoran, an icescape is a prevalent and radically different kind of nature than a liquid sea, for example. The technical near-sameness of the two is not important to the Matoran.With Magnetism and Iron, metal is a physical material and magnetism is energy; the two are very different. For example, magnetic metal is probably rarely on the proverbial radar screen of what Iron Toa are concerned with. And magnetism can do other things like bend light or electricity, etc.
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#22 Offline Kumata

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Posted May 29 2012 - 10:30 PM

Here's my question: exactly what can Toa of Plasma do? I know what plasma is in reality, but I'm not sure if it has been 'cartoonified' (like the Ice example discussed above) for the sake of Bionicle's younger fans.

Edited by Kumata, May 29 2012 - 10:31 PM.

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#23 Offline Katuko

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Posted May 30 2012 - 06:53 AM

Plasma can, to my knowledge, move extreme amounts of heat around in an instant, as well as cause spontaneous reactions in materials so that they get vaporized or ionized. In simple BIONICLE practice I imagine plasma, when shot, looks kind of like a glowing, gaseous stream that is so hot it melts right through things (but does not cause ignition just from contact, as that would be more of a flame). Plasma is not just heat, of course, but it tends to produce lots of it. If Plasma is its own specific energy type in BIONICLE (like cold and shadow), then I imagine it falls under the fairly standard sci-fi/RPG energy type that is produced by special powers, eye beams etc; by which I mean it hurts but appears to be "neutral" damage instead of fire, frost, shock or similar.
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#24 Offline fishers64

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Posted May 30 2012 - 12:49 PM

Toa of Plasma can form plasma, a super-hot gas-like state of matter that can melt through any other known substance. Due to its heat, it can cause fire, but not necessarily. Since no Toa of Plasma have been protrayed through official Bionicle media, there would be no cartoonization involved. Most younger fans would likely never know of its existance, so no need to reduce its impact.
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#25 Offline joev14

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Posted May 30 2012 - 12:58 PM

This is more related to Kanohi, but you might want to also talk about the differences between the mask of levitation and the mask of flight.
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#26 Offline BioGio

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Posted May 30 2012 - 01:19 PM

This is more related to Kanohi, but you might want to also talk about the differences between the mask of levitation and the mask of flight.

First, this would be best in a separate thread, since Kanohi are not normally Elemental in power, and these two are definitely not Elements.Now, the major difference is that levitation is just a matter of going straight up and down. It's floating and hovering; it allows for static hovering like a helicopter. A character with a Mask of Levitation needs an external force to go anywhere but up. Flight, on the other hand, is exactly what it should sound like: flying up, down, left, right, forward, and so on. The difference is basically the range of motion.~ BioGio

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#27 Offline Anti Nui

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Posted Jun 01 2012 - 11:39 PM

I am a little confused on the definition of "sub-power." It seems that back when only Vacuum (and maybe Heat or Silence) were considered sub-powers, the general consensus was that sub-powers were things that you could manipulate by using your power over an element that are not the same thing as your element. For example, you could use Air to make a vacuum, but Air =/= Vacuum. Just like how you could use Fire to control heat, but obviously Fire and Heat are not the same thing. Basically, sub-powers gave you a wider scope of abilities that expanded outside of your elemental powers, in a way.Now, we have sub-powers listed on BS01 such as Cyclone, Hypnotism, Telekinesis, and Telepathy. The description above says that "Several powers exist that involve manipulating only a certain portion of an Elemental Power." But does this really make sense? Cyclone is basically the same power as Air, only a more limited version at that. Same goes for Hypnotism, Telekinesis, and Telepathy. Psionics is by definition (as I recall reading it back then) the very ability to use things like telekinesis and telepathy. So should these things really be considered "sub-powers?" If there was a being (or a mask power) somewhere in the MU that could make a giant hand of fire (and that's literally all he could do. He couldn't manipulate normal fire like a Toa could), should "Hand of Fire" be considered a sub-power? It just doesn't seem right.Speaking of Vacuum, should it even be considered a sub-power of Air? According to BS01, Vacuum is the power to absorb specifically air, but apparently from what I've heard, Lehvak-Kal could create vacuums by absorbing other materials (such as earth or water) too.
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#28 Online bonesiii

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Posted Jun 02 2012 - 06:45 AM

"Several powers exist that involve manipulating only a certain portion of an Elemental Power." But does this really make sense? Cyclone is basically the same power as Air, only a more limited version at that.

Sure it makes sense. There are infinite possible protodermic powers. Powers are normally divided into elemental powers (Fire, Water, etc.), or non-elements. It makes sense that somewhere in the infinite variety there would be some that just use portions of abilities from the elements. :)Cyclone for example is a specific ability within the range of Air. But Air lets you do with air whatever you imagine, like making a straight-line wind, absorb some, make new, etc. That's basically how all sub-powers compared to full elements work. :)And Vacuum is a sub-power technically of any element as it's the absence of all. Levhak-Kal could absorb specifically air, so his was sort of a sub of Air, but he could also hold air out of an area, which is hard for a Toa to do without something like a wall, so it's more like a mix of a sub-power and a different power altogether. I'd called it a mixed power.

If there was a being (or a mask power) somewhere in the MU that could make a giant hand of fire (and that's literally all he could do. He couldn't manipulate normal fire like a Toa could), should "Hand of Fire" be considered a sub-power? It just doesn't seem right.

I'm not following how you figure. That's the definition of sub-power. It's one thing a Toa could do, but for the sub-power user it's all he can do. That's what the word means. :)

Edited by bonesiii, Jun 02 2012 - 06:49 AM.

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#29 Offline Dwanny

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Posted Jun 02 2012 - 07:39 AM

Would it at all be possible for any elemental power wielding species to have elements, say, from the periodic table?Just think, a toa of liquid nitrogen.Able to make gummie bears freeze and crumble, old pennies dissolve and be incredibly cold!...But is it possble?
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#30 Offline Phantomesque

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Posted Jun 02 2012 - 09:13 AM

Would it at all be possible for any elemental power wielding species to have elements, say, from the periodic table?Just think, a toa of liquid nitrogen.Able to make gummie bears freeze and crumble, old pennies dissolve and be incredibly cold!...But is it possble?

Well, no. The Great Beings created only those elements, so no Toa of Liquid Nitrogen. But however, it may be possible for say maybe a Toa of Ice to control Liquid Nitrogen since it is a form of ice right?~Gravity

Edited by Gravity Caiox, Jun 02 2012 - 09:14 AM.

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#31 Offline BioGio

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Posted Jun 02 2012 - 12:54 PM

Liquid Nitrogen [...] is a form of ice right?

Nope. Ice is frozen water (H2O) or Protodermis, and liquid nitrogen is, well, nitrogen (N2).Had the GBs made the choice to make such an Element, then it would exist. But we currently know all of the different Elements; that's not going to change, according to Greg.~ BioGio

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dig


"You're a scientist? The proposal you make violates parsimony; it introduces extra unknowns without proof for them. One might as well say unicorns power it."


#32 Online bonesiii

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Posted Jun 02 2012 - 10:56 PM

Would it at all be possible for any elemental power wielding species to have elements, say, from the periodic table?Just think, a toa of liquid nitrogen.Able to make gummie bears freeze and crumble, old pennies dissolve and be incredibly cold!...But is it possble?

Not in the MU; see above post. But hypothetically, if the GBs had wanted to make such powers, they could have. And it's possible that such powers might even be in the infinite range of protodermic powers. The only problem with that is that protodermic powers always seem to be about controlling types of protodermis or matter interchangeably, and a Toa of specific atomic elements might only work with Spherus Magna (normal) matter.So considering the GBs did not make such powers to our knowledge, the best we can say is it's possible but probably nonexistent.I did ask Greg once though about if there could have been other elements such as Gold or Silver, with different properties from normal metals (whether protogold or real gold for example) and he confirmed it is plausible (but of course wasn't used in the canon). We based several Expanded Multiverse elements on that concept, including Gold and Silver themselves. For example Gold is highly malleable and looks like real gold even though in the EM it's all protodermis, and silver is the type of protodermis that can channel or hold powers, like Toa Tools, etc.So within fanfics, elements that are more directly inspired by the periodic table but are mainly protodermic are possible. :)

But however, it may be possible for say maybe a Toa of Ice to control Liquid Nitrogen since it is a form of ice right?~Gravity

The key word there is liquid, but ice is solid, so no, that's impossible, sorry. Perhaps if there is a lot of nitrogen in the air like in the real world they might be able to liquefy it with intense cold, I suppose. They wouldn't be able to control it, though.

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#33 Offline Malakyr

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Posted Jun 06 2012 - 02:35 PM

I've always held the somewhat strange belief that if Pohatu ever realized that sand was actually tiny stone particles, he would be able to extend his influence with that understanding. However, this doesn't apply to the Liquid Nitrogen debate above. Assuming my belief is correct, can a Toa of Fire control lava just because it's hot?
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#34 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 06 2012 - 02:57 PM

If your belief was true, maybe, but sand is an entirely different element, and lava cannot be controlled by Toa of Fire. :(
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#35 Offline Damaracx Caratas Xarian

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Posted Jun 06 2012 - 03:15 PM

If your belief was true, maybe, but sand is an entirely different element, and lava cannot be controlled by Toa of Fire. :(

Well when you think of it Lava is burnt rock so I believe a toa of fire and stone could both control it together.

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#36 Offline Malakyr

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Posted Jun 06 2012 - 03:17 PM

If your belief was true, maybe, but sand is an entirely different element, and lava cannot be controlled by Toa of Fire. :(

Well when you think of it Lava is burnt rock so I believe a toa of fire and stone could both control it together.

Somewhat similar to what Hakaan and Avak did on Voya Nui with that magma... golem... thing.

Edited by Outler, Jun 06 2012 - 03:20 PM.

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#37 Offline BioGio

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Posted Jun 06 2012 - 03:38 PM

If your belief was true, maybe, but sand is an entirely different element, and lava cannot be controlled by Toa of Fire. :(

Well when you think of it Lava is burnt rock so I believe a toa of fire and stone could both control it together.

I believe that Tahu and Onua controlled lava in the first book (by Hapka) when they were under Mangai.(Also, rock cannot be "burnt," as it's inorganic.)~ BioGio

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#38 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 06 2012 - 03:43 PM

If your belief was true, maybe, but sand is an entirely different element, and lava cannot be controlled by Toa of Fire. :(

Well when you think of it Lava is burnt rock so I believe a toa of fire and stone could both control it together.

I believe that Tahu and Onua controlled lava in the first book (by Hapka) when they were under Mangai.(Also, rock cannot be "burnt," as it's inorganic.)~ BioGio

Alright, so I guess it's a combined power b/t two elements, and fire is one of them. I seem to be forgetting that scene in the Hapka book, though. Could you clarify? Is it towards the end of the book?

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#39 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Jun 06 2012 - 04:09 PM

No, Toa of Fire can't control lava. If they can absorb enough heat to freeze water, though, I expect they could freeze lava into stone by absorbing heat from it.But in conjunction with a Toa of Earth or Stone, that makes sense. Hm, by that logic, I wonder if a Toa of Fire and a Toa of Ice together could control water.

Edited by The Iron Toa, Jun 06 2012 - 04:11 PM.

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#40 Offline BioGio

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Posted Jun 07 2012 - 04:00 PM

I seem to be forgetting that scene in the Hapka book, though. Could you clarify? Is it towards the end of the book?

I'm almost certain it's while they're under Mangai and making their way to Makuta's lair (and possibly during the Shadow Toa fight)--very close to the end of the book. I can try to look it up, but I'll have to do a lot of digging for the book (and the scene :P).~ BioGio

Edited by BioGio, Jun 07 2012 - 04:00 PM.

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