Wairuha Master of Wisdom

[Endless Sea (Alaki Nuva)]

Well, I think it looks perfect.  

[~Shockwave~]

 

It is not a codpiece, it is not supposed to LOOK like a codpiece, and in my opinion it DOESN'T look like a codpiece. It is supposed to be more like a loincloth, and the idea of it looking masculine never once crossed my mind. If anything, it's supposed to be gender-neutral, though my goal has always been to make Akamai the more masculine of the Toa Kaita and Wairuha the more feminine, and I tried to reflect that here.

 

If you're reading any kind of masculinity into that aspect of the design then you are not at all comprehending my intent. And I can't say that's the fault of my design not being clear enough. If I wanted there to be a crotch bulge, the model would have a crotch bulge, but I didn't, and it doesn't.

 

 

 

I'm sorry you're getting so rumbled over this, but that's what it looks like here. It's a giant articulated metal plate jutting down between its legs, for crying out loud. 

 

As far as intent goes, the second someone produces something and put it out for critique, their "intent" doesn't mean a thing. That's not my personal opinion, that's just how art works. The interpretations of the viewers supersede the intentions of the creator.

 

Anyway, I wasn't saying "Get rid of it, it disgusts me," I was just suggesting you downplay that part a bit. As it stands, the bright white shells on the sides combined with the larger center shell form an arrow that leads the eye directly to the groin. It's the peril you run when putting white over darker colors :/

 

Just because you are criticizing, does not mean you are right, though. It's easy to misinterpret something, and I honestly don't see what you're trying to point out. I see more what Aanchir Said it was. It looks more like it's trying to extend the torso, as otherwise it would look rather spindly.

 

@Aainchir: Hm. I'll take your word on the flipper things, as I don't have my own to see what they look like, I suppose looking like flippers isn't bad, since 1/3 of the sets that make it up have those. It just makes the feet look rather aquatic and the rest of the body makes it look like it would sink like a rock.

 

Oh. I also like the weapon. Since I didn't mention that.

[DoktorFreizeit]

 

 

It is not a codpiece, it is not supposed to LOOK like a codpiece, and in my opinion it DOESN'T look like a codpiece. It is supposed to be more like a loincloth, and the idea of it looking masculine never once crossed my mind. If anything, it's supposed to be gender-neutral, though my goal has always been to make Akamai the more masculine of the Toa Kaita and Wairuha the more feminine, and I tried to reflect that here.

 

If you're reading any kind of masculinity into that aspect of the design then you are not at all comprehending my intent. And I can't say that's the fault of my design not being clear enough. If I wanted there to be a crotch bulge, the model would have a crotch bulge, but I didn't, and it doesn't.

 

 

 

I'm sorry you're getting so rumbled over this, but that's what it looks like here. It's a giant articulated metal plate jutting down between its legs, for crying out loud. 

 

As far as intent goes, the second someone produces something and put it out for critique, their "intent" doesn't mean a thing. That's not my personal opinion, that's just how art works. The interpretations of the viewers supersede the intentions of the creator.

 

Anyway, I wasn't saying "Get rid of it, it disgusts me," I was just suggesting you downplay that part a bit. As it stands, the bright white shells on the sides combined with the larger center shell form an arrow that leads the eye directly to the groin. It's the peril you run when putting white over darker colors :/

 

 

Just because you are criticizing, does not mean you are right, though. It's easy to misinterpret something, and I honestly don't see what you're trying to point out. I see more what Aanchir Said it was. It looks more like it's trying to extend the torso, as otherwise it would look rather spindly.

 

What, and someone gushing about how this is the greatest thing ever automatically is right? Just because two people disagree about something means that the point of contention is nonexistent? That doesn't pan out.

 

How about instead of plain brushing me off because you don't like what I'm saying, you listen and maybe try and understand where I'm coming from. Maybe if you don't want a certain part interpreted a certain way, you just change it. If I didn't want a part of my MOC (Gertrude for example) interpreted as something not-quite wholesome, as it has been, I could just remove that bit and rework it, as I have done in the image below. 

 

Doing otherwise isn't putting your MOC up for critique, it's just posting it and shouting "HEY LOOK AT ME, EVERYONE TELL ME HOW GREAT I AM."

 

Learn to listen to criticism, yo.

 

Edited December 3, 2014 by DoktorFreizeit
Inappropriate content removed.

[Tufi Piyufi]

Tone it down. Critiquing a MOC doesn't give you a license to be abrasive.

[Bedrock1]

Tone it down. Critiquing a MOC doesn't give you a license to be abrasive.

 

Abrasiveness is in the eye of the beholder, but by most standards he really isn't being abrasive. At all. He's actually being quite polite about it. If you can't take a bit of criticism and somebody pointing out that your loincloth requires a loincloth of it's own, you probably shouldn't be posting your mocs on the internet.

 

Well, I think it looks perfect.  

 

Absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever at ALL? No flaws in the slightest? The absolute epitome of CCBS? Literally the best possible thing that can be made with CCBS? 'Cause that's what perfection means.

 

 

 

If you're reading any kind of crassness or masculinity into that aspect of the design then you are not at all comprehending my intent. And I can't say that's the fault of my design not being clear enough. If I wanted there to be a crotch bulge, the model would have a crotch bulge, but I didn't, and it doesn't.

 

If I wanted to create an imperfect MOC, the MOC would be imperfect, but I didn't, therefore it isn't.

Your argument here is just you saying he's seeing things, and that your will is law, what you think, you make. That's some pretty flawed logic. It's called doing things accidentally, we all do it. People make mistakes, get criticism, improve. It's a learning curve and we're all in it. Don't think yourself "Better" than all the plebeians who didn't get the sets early.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Bedrock1

[DoktorFreizeit]

Tone it down. Critiquing a MOC doesn't give you a license to be abrasive.

You're absolutely right, Tufi, nor does it mean that I can't be blunt. I was just saying that if you post a MOC you should be able to accept and recognize criticism instead of just brushing it off

[Tufi Piyufi]

 

 

Tone it down. Critiquing a MOC doesn't give you a license to be abrasive.

 

You're absolutely right, Tufi, nor does it mean that I can't be blunt. I was just saying that if you post a MOC you should be able to accept and recognize criticism instead of just brushing it off

This isn't simple bluntness. You can critique a MOC without attacking the MOC or builder, which you're coming very close to doing. You need to dial it back.

[Kek]

DoktorFreizeit really wasn't being abrasive. He had legitimate criticisms, of which should not be ignored because that wasn't the artist's intent. So what if it wasn't the intent? I can see the angle he was coming from. Also, if we can take Aanchir's rebuttals into account and look over DoktorFreizeit's views due to misinterpretation of what was trying to be done, by this logic, Freizeit's alleged "abrasiveness" is simple misunderstanding and not an issue at all. Simply "taking it the wrong way".

Whatever though. Even if his choice of words was crude, the MOC does look like it could use a little tweaking, specifically around the lower torso and hips. Also, a way to beef up the ankles would help the silhouette a lot. Otherwise, it's impressive for the first attempt at a G2 Wairuha.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Kek

[Makuta Luroka]

Person A expresses opinion, OP doesn't like it and comes off also in a way that seems kinda blunt, Person A replies in a fashion that is kinda blunt, and it all goes downhill...

 

Keep in mind that certain verbiage may unintentionally imply aggressiveness when you post on the internet. There are no non-verbal cues to find out any implicit meaning behind what you say.\

 

The argument stops here before it goes any further.

 

Back to the topic, I kind of agree that the loincloth somewhat resembles a codpiece. I feel like it would more resemble a loincloth if the white shells were to fully wrap around the waist. The lower legs also seem somewhat off.

[DoktorFreizeit]

 

 

Tone it down. Critiquing a MOC doesn't give you a license to be abrasive.

You're absolutely right, Tufi, nor does it mean that I can't be blunt. I was just saying that if you post a MOC you should be able to accept and recognize criticism instead of just brushing it off

This isn't simple bluntness. You can critique a MOC without attacking the MOC or builder, which you're coming very close to doing. You need to dial it back.

 

Alright then, I'll dial it back. For future reference, could you point out which were the offending statements?

Edited December 3, 2014 by DoktorFreizeit

[Kek]

 

 

Tone it down. Critiquing a MOC doesn't give you a license to be abrasive.

You're absolutely right, Tufi, nor does it mean that I can't be blunt. I was just saying that if you post a MOC you should be able to accept and recognize criticism instead of just brushing it off

This isn't simple bluntness. You can critique a MOC without attacking the MOC or builder, which you're coming very close to doing. You need to dial it back.

 

Brash word choice doesn't mean attacking. There was no questioning of the MOCer's skill nor any insults being thrown about. It's all perspective here, and yours appears somewhat skewed from what was trying to be said. No offense intended, just saying you may want to approach this from a different angle. 

[Bedrock1]

 

 

 

Tone it down. Critiquing a MOC doesn't give you a license to be abrasive.

You're absolutely right, Tufi, nor does it mean that I can't be blunt. I was just saying that if you post a MOC you should be able to accept and recognize criticism instead of just brushing it off

This isn't simple bluntness. You can critique a MOC without attacking the MOC or builder, which you're coming very close to doing. You need to dial it back.

 

Brash word choice doesn't mean attacking. There was no questioning of the MOCer's skill nor any insults being thrown about. It's all perspective here, and yours appears somewhat skewed from what was trying to be said. No offense intended, just saying you may want to approach this from a different angle. 

 

100% agree. The most unbiased and objective opinions can be expressed even using the most inelegant words. If you can only criticize the way the good Doktor presented his argument, then maybe you should rethink your position in this debate.

[Makuta Luroka]

Now that we're done with that, can we please move discussion back to the topic.

[Kek]

Now that we're done with that, can we please move discussion back to the topic.

Fair enough. Any methods you can think of that may add to the feet? 

[Makuta Luroka]

I'd say instead of adding armor to the ankles, and instead of using a torso beam, maybe use multiple long limb beams and have them connect to something like that piece used in Thornraxx, and clip that onto the Stormer XL foot. Then tack shells onto that. It's what I've done with my HF MOC Breaker that I have yet to post here, and it works really well. Very stable, too.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Makuta Luroka

[DoktorFreizeit]

 

Now that we're done with that, can we please move discussion back to the topic.

Fair enough. Any methods you can think of that may add to the feet? 

 

Well, I'd suggest ditching the little buckler and flippers and attaching those pieces to the sides of the feet for some giga-rex battlehooves. 

But since the parts aren't available yet there's no way to tell how - or if - that'd work.

[BrickPharaoh]

I'd say instead of adding armor to the ankles, and instead of using a torso beam, maybe use multiple long limb beams and have them connect to something like that piece used in Thornraxx, and clip that onto the Stormer XL foot. Then tack shells onto that. It's what I've done with my HF MOC Breaker that I have yet to post here, and it works really well. Very stable, too.

 

Does that involve using pieces outside of the combiner's pieces? This sorta breaks the whole idea of using just the pieces from the three sets. 

 

[Kek]

 

I'd say instead of adding armor to the ankles, and instead of using a torso beam, maybe use multiple long limb beams and have them connect to something like that piece used in Thornraxx, and clip that onto the Stormer XL foot. Then tack shells onto that. It's what I've done with my HF MOC Breaker that I have yet to post here, and it works really well. Very stable, too.

 

Does that involve using pieces outside of the combiner's pieces? This sorta breaks the whole idea of using just the pieces from the three sets. 

 

 

I'm thinking incorporating the spare heads as ankles and building off of those. I honestly can't tell what Aanchir has left in terms of spare parts, so it's hard to say how one could make bulkier feet.

[Bedrock1]

I'd say instead of adding armor to the ankles, and instead of using a torso beam, maybe use multiple long limb beams and have them connect to something like that piece used in Thornraxx, and clip that onto the Stormer XL foot. Then tack shells onto that. It's what I've done with my HF MOC Breaker that I have yet to post here, and it works really well. Very stable, too.

 

I think the "point" of this build is that it can be done using only parts from omega lewa, gali and kopaka

Edited December 3, 2014 by Bedrock1

[DoktorFreizeit]

 

 

I'd say instead of adding armor to the ankles, and instead of using a torso beam, maybe use multiple long limb beams and have them connect to something like that piece used in Thornraxx, and clip that onto the Stormer XL foot. Then tack shells onto that. It's what I've done with my HF MOC Breaker that I have yet to post here, and it works really well. Very stable, too.

 

Does that involve using pieces outside of the combiner's pieces? This sorta breaks the whole idea of using just the pieces from the three sets. 

 

 

I'm thinking incorporating the spare heads as ankles and building off of those. I honestly can't tell what Aanchir has left in terms of spare parts, so it's hard to say how one could make bulkier feet.

 

On the subject of feet and legs, does this Wairuha MOC really need a gearbox on its legs? Can the gearbox even move the legs effectively? I say ditch that - and the angular badonk it imparts - and attach the legs straight to the body. Lord knows it'd go a ways to fixing the spindly leg issue. Plus the gears could go to greebling up the rest of the build.

[Aanchir]

I'm sorry you're getting so rumbled over this, but that's what it looks like here. It's a giant articulated metal plate jutting down between its legs, for crying out loud.

I don't see why that's so problematic, honestly. To me, it looks more like a loincloth than anything else. As I said, it doesn't bulge or stick out any further than the torso shell above it does.

 

 

As far as intent goes, the second someone produces something and put it out for critique, their "intent" doesn't mean a thing. That's not my personal opinion, that's just how art works. The interpretations of the viewers supersede the intentions of the creator.

 

Ah, the "death of the author" theory. It is an interesting theory, but I don't personally subscribe to it. I think that the creator's intent does matter when evaluating their creations.

 

Of course, that doesn't mean I think the intent absolves me from criticism! In fact, design intent actually opens up new avenues of criticism, if you feel like that intent was poorly realized. For instance, suppose I didn't use Bright Green anywhere in this model? Or suppose I made the entire thing dog-shaped instead of humanoid? It might still be an extremely attractive or interesting model, maybe more so than this one! But it would not be consistent with the design intent, which is to create a new version of Toa Nuva Kaita Wairuha.

 

The only reason I brought up my intent was because comments like "One might as well add oversized breasts to Wairuha" seemed to me like you were implying that I was trying to make the model excessively masculine, when in fact the truth is in fact the opposite: I wanted to make the model as effeminate as I could without making it look overtly female. I do not think that Wairuha and Akamai as characters should necessarily have rigid genders — I am almost more inclined to think of them in a more spiritual sense, representing a sort of duality like yin and yang.

 

 

Anyway, I wasn't saying "Get rid of it, it disgusts me," I was just suggesting you downplay that part a bit. As it stands, the bright white shells on the sides combined with the larger center shell form an arrow that leads the eye directly to the groin. It's the peril you run when putting white over darker colors :/

 

I definitely considered other colors for that part of the model. Didn't have the pieces for any alternate colors, though. I also thought the stark contrast between the chest plate, torso shell, the armor on the lower body helped evoke the sort of contrast the original model's three torso shells exhibited.

 

Though to be honest, even if you think the colors draw attention to the groin, I am still puzzled how you consider that part of the model masculine-looking. It's not as though only men have groins...

 

 

 

I have no idea whatsoever what you mean about the... erm... booty.

 

Take a look at that rear-view, the gearbox forms a flat base that the legs jut off of at right angles. The rather narrow legs stuck to that blocky torso just look strange.

 

 

I guess I see what you're saying. I don't think it looks TOO strange, though, to be honest. And in fact, I feel like a bit of strangeness is inherent to a Toa Kaita model.

 

 

Sorry if you thought I was just (removed) all over your build, though. There are lots of aspects that work! The upper torso looks slick as all get out and the claws at the tops of the wings add a really nice touch.

But I critique builds, man, and another voice in the crowd shouting "OMG LOOKS GR8 M8 I R8 IT 8/8" isn't honest criticism. It's just pandering, and that's not what I'm about.

 

Thank you. It would have been easier to not get so worked up about your critiques if you had mentioned some of the things you liked rather than just saying "it's okay" and then launching into a laundry list of complaints. I don't want you (or ANYONE) to just shower me in blind praise, but giving a detailed critique doesn't mean you have to focus exclusively on the things you DON'T like. And I understand the temptation to just give that kind of negative critique! It's sometimes hard for me to pick out things I like about a model as well, and I'm sure you could fish up MOC critiques I've written that were just as harsh, even when I didn't mean them to be.

 

 

If you're reading any kind of crassness or masculinity into that aspect of the design then you are not at all comprehending my intent. And I can't say that's the fault of my design not being clear enough. If I wanted there to be a crotch bulge, the model would have a crotch bulge, but I didn't, and it doesn't.

If I wanted to create an imperfect MOC, the MOC would be imperfect, but I didn't, therefore it isn't.

Your argument here is just you saying he's seeing things, and that your will is law, what you think, you make. That's some pretty flawed logic. It's called doing things accidentally, we all do it. People make mistakes, get criticism, improve. It's a learning curve and we're all in it. Don't think yourself "Better" than all the plebeians who didn't get the sets early.

 

That's not my logic at all. Please don't put words in my mouth. (Not to mention that a crotch bulge wouldn't inherently make the model imperfect, if that's the look you wanted...) All I'm saying is the simple facts — there's no crotch bulge on this model. The model's crotch doesn't stick out any further than the rest of the torso. And that's why I have a hard time understanding why that section of the model would seem masculine to people.

 

And I don't think I'm better than anybody because I got the sets early. I'm honestly a bit hurt that you think I WOULD feel that way.

 

I'd say instead of adding armor to the ankles, and instead of using a torso beam, maybe use multiple long limb beams and have them connect to something like that piece used in Thornraxx, and clip that onto the Stormer XL foot. Then tack shells onto that. It's what I've done with my HF MOC Breaker that I have yet to post here, and it works really well. Very stable, too.

I'm having a hard time visualizing this suggestion, but I can tell you're naming a lot of parts that weren't in the three sets I used (the new Lewa, Gali, and Kopaka sets). So those parts were not available to me.

 

Side note: this is a part of why I feel like intent is important. If you don't recognize the limits and guidelines I consciously placed on myself then it's hard to critique it with authority, because there are certain things that can and can't be done while still adhering to those limits and guidelines.

 

On the subject of feet and legs, does this Wairuha MOC really need a gearbox on its legs? Can the gearbox even move the legs effectively? I say ditch that - and the angular badonk it imparts - and attach the legs straight to the body. Lord knows it'd go a ways to fixing the spindly leg issue. Plus the gears could go to greebling up the rest of the build.

It doesn't need the gearbox, no, and you're not the first person who's suggested I skip the gear function there. But that was sort of personal preference on my part. With a combi model (particularly a fusion), I try to take care to ensure that it is as impressive or more so than the sets used to create it. That way, it feels like it's really worth taking apart the original sets in order to build it, and you aren't just sacrificing three good figures to create one lackluster figure.

 

One of the things I've always loved about the original Toa Kaita is that they did really feel "worth building". Playing with them didn't just feel like playing with a larger Toa — you got three functions instead of just one! Some other combi models like the Bohrok Kaita struggled to achieve this kind of feeling.

 

The original Toa Nuva Kaita didn't have gear functions in their lower body, but they did still have the right and left shoulders geared separately, something I didn't really think I could do here while still maintaining the same subtle femininity to the proportions. When I build Akamai I plan to have three separate gearboxes — two for the legs and one for the arms.

 

But I'm not going to make any pretense of my models being the "official" versions of these characters, and in fact I'd hate for this to discourage people from building their own Toa Kaita models that suit their own preferences. It wouldn't entirely surprise me if once the sets are out, somebody might even come up with some elegant Toa Kaita designs that I like even more than my own!

Edited December 4, 2014 by Aanchir

[Makuta Luroka]

I'd say instead of adding armor to the ankles, and instead of using a torso beam, maybe use multiple long limb beams and have them connect to something like that piece used in Thornraxx, and clip that onto the Stormer XL foot. Then tack shells onto that. It's what I've done with my HF MOC Breaker that I have yet to post here, and it works really well. Very stable, too.

I'm having a hard time visualizing this suggestion, but I can tell you're naming a lot of parts that weren't in the three sets I used (the new Lewa, Gali, and Kopaka sets). So those parts were not available to me.

 

Side note: this is a part of why I feel like intent is important. If you don't recognize the limits and guidelines I consciously placed on myself then it's hard to critique it with authority, because there are certain things that can and can't be done while still adhering to those limits and guidelines.

I'll eventually get around to posting that MOC so you can better visualize the idea I put forward. I do understand the limits you imposed, I was simply offering a suggestion. I do like the idea of incorporating the spare skulls in the ankles, and did that with metru skulls in my self-moc. It works very well for larger MOCs.

[MrSciFiGuy]

Amazing. This really captures the feel of the original Wairuha, but with a more anatomically correct body. I love the weapon you designed and the "wings".

[Makuta Matata]

THIS IS REALLY GOOD GOOD WORK!!

[Akavakaku]

After a little more consideration, I think I understand what I dislike about the colors: the fact that they're so perfectly distributed is what makes it unappealing. I think it would look better if each color were more concentrated to one region or another.

[Makuta Luroka]

I will agree that it could benefit from more blocking.

[Aanchir]

After a little more consideration, I think I understand what I dislike about the colors: the fact that they're so perfectly distributed is what makes it unappealing. I think it would look better if each color were more concentrated to one region or another.

Hmmm, interesting thought. That might be worth trying on a future attempt at building a Toa Kaita. Unfortunately, I think it might be a challenge with these sets, since the differently-colored shells in the set are also differently sized, and it could be a real challenge to keep the model balanced aesthetically, or even symmetrical.

 

I did try to achieve a certain amount of color blocking, such as concentrating the white parts in the lower legs and lower body.

[Dallior]

Aanchir, this is simply amaztastical! The disputed white "groin" piece doesn't look anything like... well, a groin. Doctor Freezit is off his rocker!

[Regitnui]

Perhaps it is time for these instructions to be released, Chir1 and Chir2.

[Aanchir]

Perhaps it is time for these instructions to be released, Chir1 and Chir2.

I apologize for not having the instructions ready right when the sets are released. I actually tried a couple weeks ago to take instruction photos for this model. Ultimately I was stymied when I got to the torso of the model, because it's VERY difficult to show how that is built using mere photos. Lots of different parts being attached at different angles. I have an LDD model using placeholder parts, though, and once the actual BIONICLE 2015 parts are added to LDD I will try to use that to create building instructions.

 

If it's any help, here is the LXF file with placeholders. Since I had to make the gearboxes out of multiple parts, I color-coded them so you can more easily tell which placeholder parts represent each gearbox. One is 222 Light Purple (Pink), one is 325 Lavender, and one is 323 Aqua. The other placeholders should be easy enough to figure out.

[Regitnui]

I wasn't pressuring you, just wondering how far it was done.