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They can have a toa of ice and water; the same element in different forms.  Then couldn't they have made a toa of mud, snow, etc.?  

 

So why didn't they do it?  Possibly the answer to this inquiry is how many kids would want a toa of mud?  (Maybe some would like a toa of mud; I don't really know.)

 

Also no need for 2 paragraph long banausic responses; you can keep it short and still be able to answer in detail. :)


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What do you associate with water?

What do you associate with ice?

How different are associations for two elements above?

 

What do you associate with mud?


TOO LATE.

IT WAS ALWAYS TOO LATE.

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Toa of *reasonably different*. Sure, Earth and Stone are the same thing, but they're very different visually. Similarly Water and Ice. Fire and lightning are the same way. Air doesn't have a counterpart, though. No common substance shares enough with air while being visually distinct... Smoke, perhaps? Light and Shadow are one of the Great Dualities, so no questions there.


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Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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How are fire and lightning the same? I know their paired up via Tahnok-Kal, but so was water and magnetism, so it's not really much of a pairing.

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Uh, I'm pretty sure a Toa of Water and a Toa of Earth can control mud, meaning that a dedicated Toa of Mud would not be necessary. Also, the Great Beings were efficient and in a hurry building the robot, so throwing in elements other than the essentials was not high on the priority list.

 

also Bionicle is all about teamwork, so a scene where Gali and Onua work together is a BIG deal. Why undercut that?

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Since Toa of Earth could control mud way back when there were only six elements in the story, the point is kind of moot.


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Uh, I'm pretty sure a Toa of Water and a Toa of Earth can control mud, meaning that a dedicated Toa of Mud would not be necessary. Also, the Great Beings were efficient and in a hurry building the robot, so throwing in elements other than the essentials was not high on the priority list.

 

also Bionicle is all about teamwork, so a scene where Gali and Onua work together is a BIG deal. Why undercut that?

Onua had no trouble controlling mud all on his own. Legends #8 and Comic #13: Swamp of Shadows show him using the mud of the Karda Nui swamp to take out Bitil and his duplicates. He even says:

 

"Nothing like controlling earth when you are in a world of mud -- I feel like Kopaka in a blizzard!"

 

No water needed. :)


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While a Toa of Mud is pretty clearly unnecessary, it does beg the question as to why Water and Ice are disassociated.

 

My headcanon is that while called Fire and Ice, the elements are more representative of Heat and a lack thereof, or Cold. And while Heat is an established subpower, Fire weilders could be said to be able to manipulate heat to the degree that it manifests as fire, arguably the most closely associated thing with Heat.

 

The opposite can be said for cold; we've seen before that Toa of Ice apparently do not actually create frozen water, but freeze existing water or Liquid Protodermis (drawing vapor from the atmosphere if necessary).


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How are fire and lightning the same? I know their paired up via Tahnok-Kal, but so was water and magnetism, so it's not really much of a pairing.

Scientifically speaking, like rocks and earth are chemically identical solids, and water and ice are two different expressions of the same chemical, fire (flames, specifically) and lightning are both plasmas; ionized gases with such energy that they express it as heat, light and sound. Lightning is much hotter and burns out quicker, but they're the same, scientifically speaking.

 

And before anyone posts a .gift of Greg laughing while dismissing real life physics from Bionicle, the OQ was indeed about real life physics; "why have earth/stone and ice/water differentiated?"


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Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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, fire (flames, specifically) and lightning are both plasmas; ionized gases with such energy that they express it as heat, light and sound. Lightning is much hotter and burns out quicker, but they're the same, scientifically speaking.

 

 

Neither of those are plasmas. Both can form plasmas from heat they produce, but they are not plasma, they're energy forms. Fire is highly exothermic oxidation of a substance, creating light, heat and sound. The flames can produce plasma, but the plasma is not what defines what a fire is. Similarly Lightning is a large body of electricity, made up of electrons, which travels due to electrical inbalances between the Earth and clouds, often removing electrons and energizing some atoms in the atmosphere, creating small amounts of plasma in the air.

 

So to summarise: Both lightning and fire are forms of energy phenomena, that can produce plasma, but are neither plasma, or more similar than Earth and Water.

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While some of the Elements are partial overlaps of each other, mud would have been a complete overlap. There's absolutely nothing a Toa of mud could do that Ga and Onu couldn't. Besides, mud is boring. :P

Speaking of overlap, what says the GBs were like, "hey, we have time to throw in one more element; what should we do?" and two of 'em pipe up with Gravity and Magnetism simultaneously, argue about which one makes more sense, then end up going with both just to get it over with. 

*Centuries after the Reformation*

GB #1: ....... I still think Gravity's better.
GB #2: Shut up, George. 

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I would only see a toa of mud if the element was more complex. However, it's only a combination of two elements.

 

If you want an example of a complex element, you have Plant life. Where you need to have small control over Fire, Water, Air, and Earth, in order to properly control the element.

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I would only see a toa of mud if the element was more complex. However, it's only a combination of two elements.

 

If you want an example of a complex element, you have Plant life. Where you need to have small control over Fire, Water, Air, and Earth, in order to properly control the element.

I think you lot me on this one Lass. While I know plants require Water and usually some form of Earth to protect the seed then roots as the plant grows. Though why air and fire? I mean I guess air relates to Oxygen and plants create that in photosynthesis? So they create it, they don't actually need it originally. But still one does not really need to manipulate all these elements to manipulate a plant but I guess one could try to hinder one via these elements.

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I would only see a toa of mud if the element was more complex. However, it's only a combination of two elements.

 

If you want an example of a complex element, you have Plant life. Where you need to have small control over Fire, Water, Air, and Earth, in order to properly control the element.

I think you lot me on this one Lass. While I know plants require Water and usually some form of Earth to protect the seed then roots as the plant grows. Though why air and fire? I mean I guess air relates to Oxygen and plants create that in photosynthesis? So they create it, they don't actually need it originally. But still one does not really need to manipulate all these elements to manipulate a plant but I guess one could try to hinder one via these elements.

Controlling plant life requires not only moving plants to your whim but also making sure they are sustained while being used. Fire, Water, and Air would be used to accelerate photosynthesis. Earth would be used to give the faster growing roots room to expand. However, the control would still be incredibly limited. Only having enough power to make flames dance or wind make small gusts. Not powerful enough to be used on its own.

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I would only see a toa of mud if the element was more complex. However, it's only a combination of two elements.

 

If you want an example of a complex element, you have Plant life. Where you need to have small control over Fire, Water, Air, and Earth, in order to properly control the element.

I think you lot me on this one Lass. While I know plants require Water and usually some form of Earth to protect the seed then roots as the plant grows. Though why air and fire? I mean I guess air relates to Oxygen and plants create that in photosynthesis? So they create it, they don't actually need it originally. But still one does not really need to manipulate all these elements to manipulate a plant but I guess one could try to hinder one via these elements.

 

Controlling plant life requires not only moving plants to your whim but also making sure they are sustained while being used. Fire, Water, and Air would be used to accelerate photosynthesis. Earth would be used to give the faster growing roots room to expand. However, the control would still be incredibly limited. Only having enough power to make flames dance or wind make small gusts. Not powerful enough to be used on its own.

 

...That's actually a really cool way of looking at it. Headcanon accepted.

 

Maybe the same factors are at play with differentiating Earth from Stone? Iron, Stone, and maybe even Magnetism could be components of Earth.


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Toa of Mud just seems... odd. I mean, technically Stone and Earth aren't exactly the same if you look more closely at each of them, but mud just seems... boring.

Also no need for 2 paragraph long banausic responses; you can keep it short and still be able to answer in detail. :)

I'm amused by the fact that you, being a detailed-oriented individual, do not want to read in detail.

Edited by FordianL

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Toa of Mud just seems... odd. I mean, technically Stone and Earth aren't exactly the same if you look more closely at each of them, but mud just seems... boring.

Also no need for 2 paragraph long banausic responses; you can keep it short and still be able to answer in detail. :)

I'm amused by the fact that you, being a detailed-oriented individual, do not want to read in detail.

There are necessary details and unnecessary details.  By keeping it short an simple; your most likely to answer with the necessary details.

 

Also, thank you and all of the other people on this topic for doing that by the way! :)


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Controlling plant life requires not only moving plants to your whim but also making sure they are sustained while being used. Fire, Water, and Air would be used to accelerate photosynthesis. Earth would be used to give the faster growing roots room to expand. However, the control would still be incredibly limited. Only having enough power to make flames dance or wind make small gusts. Not powerful enough to be used on its own.

While I can completely agree with this(other than the fire element) from a gardener's standpoint. As a gardener has to tend to the soil as well as the plants themselves. Aerating the soil, providing water for the roots, making sure the desired plant gets just the right amount along with sunlight. We have to remember though that most of what you are referring to is handled via the Planet elemental power. Though again I guess one could say that what you have described is how it manages to do that. Still assigning it to separate elements like that seems stretching it a bit. Stretched but not outside the realm of possibilities. Also plants created by such Toa don't actually need soil, water, or even air as they get created again from the Plant-life elemental energy...

 

As for the MUD argument I can see both Water and Earth Toa being able to manipulate it due to them actually only manipulating their particular element and the secondary just being dragged for the ride. Similar to how a Ga-Toa creating a tidal wave would basically carry whatever it catches with it. Be it sealife, sand or other minerals, enemy units, etc... The same in reverse for an Onu-Toa. The water that makes up the mud basically gets dragged along for the ride... No New Toa required...

Edited by Prowl Nightwolf
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As for the MUD argument I can see both Water and Earth Toa being able to manipulate it due to them actually only manipulating their particular element and the secondary just being dragged for the ride. Similar to how a Ga-Toa creating a tidal wave would basically carry whatever it catches with it. Be it sealife, sand or other minerals, enemy units, etc... The same in reverse for an Onu-Toa. The water that makes up the mud basically gets dragged along for the ride... No New Toa required...

 

Or like when Lewa "controlled" sand by creating a cyclone to direct it at the Rahkshi. I can get behind that,


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As for the MUD argument I can see both Water and Earth Toa being able to manipulate it due to them actually only manipulating their particular element and the secondary just being dragged for the ride. Similar to how a Ga-Toa creating a tidal wave would basically carry whatever it catches with it. Be it sealife, sand or other minerals, enemy units, etc... The same in reverse for an Onu-Toa. The water that makes up the mud basically gets dragged along for the ride... No New Toa required...

Or like when Lewa "controlled" sand by creating a cyclone to direct it at the Rahkshi. I can get behind that,

 

Exactly. Lewa had no actual control over the sand itself but rather the air-forces that were strong enough to move said sand. Where a Toa of Sand would not need wind, water, or other catalyst to move it. Under the same logic Gali could move stone if she had enough water pressure. Or in the case of a similar power in an episode of The Last Airbender, Aang moved stone via air. Similar to how Lewa or other Toa of Air could if he wanted.

"A stranger will always be a stranger unless you give them a chance."

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I don't know a whole lot on the subject, but is it possible that this separation of seemingly similar elements might come from ancient and traditional Maori legends and myths? Maybe they themselves saw hard rock, and soft dirt and mud as being different; likewise with the frozen cold of ice and snow, with the smooth and scary powers of water, rain and waves. I'm totally in the dark about this, so if I am wrong please do correct me; only thing I kind of know about this is the deity Tangaroa, supreme ruler of the seas.

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Well you are not wrong because it is not wrong to have an opinion or Theory. That being said I could see how maybe in past times they seen the elements as separate in that even though we know Ice and snow to be the same thing as water if only in a different state. Perhaps back in their time of old the Matoran inhabitants did not make this connection. The same with Earth and stone. While realistically they are very similar they have enough of a difference to be different.


"A stranger will always be a stranger unless you give them a chance."

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