Energised Protodermis, meet Ignika!

[Makuta_of_Oz]

What would happen if the Ignika touched Energised Protodermis? Would the protodermis mutate the mask, will the mask curse the protodermis, or something more mysterious?

[bonesiii]

This topic deserves one massive shrug. :shrugs:That was the best I could do on short notice.

[Click]

Well, it might be destroyed, but I'd assume the GB's have some kind of control over EP (although I'm not sure), so it seems like they would try everything to prevent it from getting destroyed. Maybe the mask would gain new powers, a stronger sentience, or maybe even a body.On the other hand, it might curse the EP being, maybe even nulling the effects of EP temporarily, or making it always destroy everything, which could be bad.Mostly, I agree with Bonesii. One big . I really want to ask Greg about this one!

[25K Now!]

I'm pretty sure the Great Beings didn't have much control over Energized Protodermis, seeing that it had randomly appeared on Spherus Magna.But like Bonesii and Click, I have no idea.Maybe the creation of a completely new life-form?

[Toa Smoke Monster]

If the Ignika was destined to transform in EP, it would. If it wasn't, it would be destroyed. That's the way I see it.

[Makuta_of_Oz]

If the Ignika was destined to transform in EP, it would. If it wasn't, it would be destroyed. That's the way I see it.

Maybe it would be destroyed AND curse the energised protodermis?

[Visaru]

But the Inika really only cursed living beings. How would it curse a liquid? What would a liquid describe as bad? It really depends on whether the Inika is more powerful than the Energized Protodermis.(I'm always confusing the Inika with the Toa Ignika. It really makes for some strange titles before I read the post and realize my mistake.)

[Makuta_of_Oz]

But the Inika really only cursed living beings. How would it curse a liquid? What would a liquid describe as bad? It really depends on whether the Inika is more powerful than the Energized Protodermis.(I'm always confusing the Inika with the Toa Ignika. It really makes for some strange titles before I read the post and realize my mistake.)

Ignika is the Mask of Life. :PThe Energised Protodermis Entity is a living being made of the substance, and according to Destiny War, every drop that exists is that one entity.

[Visaru]

Wow. That was stupid. :PSo I suppose it then is about the Ignika's power vs. the Energized Protodermis entity. I'm not sure who would overpower the other.

[The Iron Toa]

Well, while I'd say the Ignika's power is more useful when it comes to living beings, because it can cause controlled transformations, overall I'd guess the EP is more powerful. That's not to say they both wouldn't be affected if they came into contact with each other, however. I think if Greg was still around, this would make for a great story. Energized Protodermis being alive makes it far more dangerous... but it could also be its greatest weakness. If it was still a threat to Spherus Magna, that would be something Mata Nui with the Ignika could return to solve.

[Taipu1]

This topic deserves one massive shrug. :shrugs:That was the best I could do on short notice.

It could spawn a Multiverse? :PThis is one of those things we'll never know though, it's just a matter of which is more powerful, and we don't know which is...

[Nuparu1995]

Definitely agree with the communal . :lol:There's no way we could tell, and I doubt they'd incorporate something into the storyline that would be so seemingly catastrophic. I imagine it's be something like a nuclear fallout. Or antimatter annihilation...

[fishers64]

Probably a massive mental struggle.Would also depend on the contact involved - if someone was using the Ignika in front of the EP entity, the Ignika would be able to transform the EP entity into something else...maybe...if the Ignika had that kind of power...or maybe trying that would make the Mask's energy exhaust itself. If the Mask was dipped in the EP, I mostly agree with The Smoke Monster's answer. However, they are both living things with the power of transformation or destruction, but the Ignika was made of EP to begin with, refined and forged by the Great Beings. Usually, materials refined from an original substance are not as powerful as the original unless augmented with additional power or a different substance. It's possible that the Great Beings added such power, but how? We don't know what all was used to construct the mask. If the Mask was constructed solely of protodermis from EP, than the EP is more powerful. But if there is another element involved, one unknown to the readers of Bionicle story, then it is possible the Ignika could win.

[Makuta Matata]

Maybe... Nothing would happen. Maybe they'd cancel each other out.

[Toa Lhikan Hordika]

Wow, I have never thought of that before. Seeing as the Ignika's power extends beyind the MU, I think it could possibly do something to the EP Entity if it had the chance to strike first. One thing to keep in mind is that the EP Entity is far beyond our understanding of a being's existence (as he/it put it). If the EP Entity got the chance to strike first, it would only do one of two things, as we already know. It would either transform it into something more powerful, or destroy it. I doubt the Great Beings ever destined the Ignika to be transformed when they created it, so my guess is that it would be destroyed unless it got the chance to make the first move...I'm going to be baffled by this one for a while.-

[TakunuvaC01]

My initial reaction to this thread was a shrug, like so many others. But, I did think about it for a few minutes, and so I decided I might as well post my analysis.First of all, the question was simply what would happen if the Ignika and some EP touched each other. Unless we have reason to assume otherwise, I don't see why this would involve a mental contest between the mask and the entity, or have anything to do with the power levels of the two respective beings. Here's why:The Ignika can manipulate life, but EP is capable of transforming matter- life or otherwise. That suggests to me that whatever the nature of EP's power, it works the same on a living being, a stone wall, or whatever- unless the substance is capable of resisting it. We know there are some substances that can do this, since the Great Beings manufactured at least one (and Matoran later discovered presumably the same one). So unless the Ignika is made out of such a substance, there's no reason to assume the EP wouldn't be capable of effecting it like anything else.Would the Ignika's powers be capable of effecting the EP entity? Yes, because it's alive. It is true that the Ignika was created from EP, but there's no reason to assume that the EP is thus invulnerable to the Ignika's powers. So then, it seems like it's a simple question of timing. Would the Ignika's curse "resolve" first, or would the EP's transformation? I think the transformation would, as I think we've seen the mask capable of thinking about what curse to bestow. It chooses to give the Great Being the power to create because it can sense he is a "creator", remember. Whereas we know the EP entity doesn't know what things it touches will transform into.And a power that requires conscious thought would probably take more time to "use" than a power that activates and does something regardless of intention. So I would say the EP will trigger before the Ignika does.That doesn't mean the Ignika couldn't curse the entity, though. If the EP didn't destroy it, or remove the power to curse, then there's no reason to assume it would not curse as normal. And we do know that the Ignika can undo transformations (Tahu and Icarax being examples of this), so possibly it could undo it's own- again, assuming it does transform.And all that's assuming the Ignika was not made out of EP-resistant materials. Which I suppose is entirely possible, if the Great Beings wanted to make their failsafe as destruction-proof as possible.

[Vandenreich]

Why does this seem like the whole divide be zero thing all over.Honestly I dont think the Ignika would win over EP im guessing its effects only work on things of Serphus Magna or the MU, But since I dont know where EP Originates...idk... big shrug

[~Xemnas~]

Hmmm... another one of those "Unstoppable force meets immovable object" kind of things. Personally, I think that they would cancel each other out- that is, nothing happening to either of them. Here's why I think this: both of these have the ability to change things, for the better or for the worse. I believe the Great Beings made the Ignika so that it couldn't be changed, and I don't think the EP Entity can be changed. Otherwise, I just give the whole thing a big shrug.

[Nick Silverpen]

Where does it originally say that the Ignika was forged from EP?

[Makuta_of_Oz]

Where does it originally say that the Ignika was forged from EP?

Where it says that everything in the MU was made of protodermis? All forms of protodermis were made from energised protodermis.

[bonesiii]

Hold on, I thought that was just one of our theories, that the artificial protodermis of the GBs was directly made from EP. Do we actually know that? All I recall being confirmed was that the GBs' proto was artificial.

Edited July 24, 2012 by bonesiii

[Makuta_of_Oz]

Hold on, I thought that was just one of our theories, that the artificial protodermis of the GBs was directly made from EP. Do we actually know that? All I recall being confirmed was that the GBs' proto was artificial.

Oh, sorry. I didn't know until too late what "synthetically" (in its BS01 article) meant... *sweatdrop* Edited July 24, 2012 by Makuta_of_Oz

[TakunuvaC01]

Hold on, I thought that was just one of our theories, that the artificial protodermis of the GBs was directly made from EP. Do we actually know that? All I recall being confirmed was that the GBs' proto was artificial.

Well, BS01 at least suggests we do know that, stating that proto was synthesized from EP:

Protodermis is a substance that was synthetically created from Energized Protodermis by the Great Beings on Spherus Magna, and many varieties of it were created, differing in states, durability, and various other properties. The Great Beings used the many types of Protodermis to construct the Great Spirit Mata Nui and all of the locations and inhabitants of the Matoran Universe within him.

But I have no idea what the source is on that, so it could easily be one of those theories that everyone just has assumed is correct...

[Anti Nui]

Well, I would think that the Ignika would simply be destroyed, since we've had no indication that it was ever destined to transform with EP. Though, maybe the Ignika could still mutate the EP pool that it is in before being destroyed?

[Click]

Okay, I just want to think about this with the ways the EP has transformed things in the past:1. Fusing beings (Takutanuva, Skakdi Fusion, Vezok and Olmak)2. Assisting Makuta in creation3. Countering Antidermis control (Voya Nui)4. Enlarging (Maze of Shadows (I think))5. Transforming (Toa Nuva, Protocairns)6. DestroySo, looking through that list, I'd say it would become a Nuva Mask of Life, or be destroyed, because1. No two beings to fuse (unless the EPE would fuse with it, which would be epic!)2. No Makuta creations in progress (hopefully)3. No Antidermis in the Mask of Life (hopefully)4. It could enlarge, but I don't see why it would5. The Nuva had masks that became Nuva masks, so why not?6. Hopefully not!

[Anti Nui]

5. The Nuva had masks that became Nuva masks, so why not?

But only if it was destined to do so. The problem is, I don't think the Ignika was destined (as in, I don't think Greg ever had any plans to make this happen) to become a Nuva mask, so it would probably be destroyed.But you never know. *shrugs*

[The 1st Shadow]

Like most others here, all I can do is shrug. But there is one thing that came to my mind: While the EP has to come in contact with something to affect it, the Ignika does not. Remember how it devolved Tahu while it was hundreds of miles above, inside the Prototype/Mata Nui's head? It just affected him from a distance, so why couldn't it use it's powers on the EP before being dropped into a pool of the stuff? Whether or not it's powers would affect the EP or not is still a mystery. And if it can't, then I really have no idea which would happen first.There's my two cents.

[Flipz]

Hold on--the EP being is alive, correct? If that's the case, the EP being would want to stay as far away from the Ignika as possible, just in case the Ignika doesn't have the destiny to transform--after all doesn't destroying the Ignika destroy all life in the universe? If that's the case, I'm pretty sure the EP being would be killed as well. Meanwhile, the Ignika would also not want to risk being destroyed, so it would do everything in its (considerable) power to avoid touching EP as well.However, there is another question that came to mind: Mata Nui's consciousness is sealed within the Ignika currently, correct? What would happen if Mata Nui had a destiny to transform, but the Ignika itself didn't? Would Mata Nui's destiny to transform override the Ignika's (lack of) destiny to transform, or would the Ignika be destroyed, thus killing everyone in the universe and preventing Mata Nui from achieving his (hypothetical) destiny to transform?Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go get some asprin for my sudden, splitting headache.

[Toa Lhikan Hordika]

I just thought of something. Though there's no way to confirm it for sure, I believe that the Ignika has an edge on Energized Protodermis.If I recall correctly, in 2010, the Ignika transformed Tahu from a Toa Nuva back into a Toa Mata. Also, mutations/transformations made by the EP are supposed to be permanent (if memory serves me right). So though we don't know what the EP could do to to the Ignika, we do know that Ignika is powerful enough to reverse the effects of EP, which are supposed to be permanent.-

[Kaleidoscope Tekulo]

Pfft, that's easy. The Ignika would invite the EP entity into its pad with Mata Nui. Finally their game of Go Fish (or Go Ruki as the Ga-matoran call it) will have some challenge!On a more serious note, I'd guess that nothing would happen. The Ignika is a pretty powerful mask. I'm pretty sure it would be able to prevent any mutation to itself. Also EP seems to specialize in altering the composition of things that are alive. Seeing as life is the Ignika's forte, I'd imagine the EP would not be altered, or could easily keep itself unaltered if it chose to do so. My bet's on a null result.

[atvan]

Hold on--the EP being is alive, correct? If that's the case, the EP being would want to stay as far away from the Ignika as possible, just in case the Ignika doesn't have the destiny to transform--after all doesn't destroying the Ignika destroy all life in the universe? If that's the case, I'm pretty sure the EP being would be killed as well. Meanwhile, the Ignika would also not want to risk being destroyed, so it would do everything in its (considerable) power to avoid touching EP as well.However, there is another question that came to mind: Mata Nui's consciousness is sealed within the Ignika currently, correct? What would happen if Mata Nui had a destiny to transform, but the Ignika itself didn't? Would Mata Nui's destiny to transform override the Ignika's (lack of) destiny to transform, or would the Ignika be destroyed, thus killing everyone in the universe and preventing Mata Nui from achieving his (hypothetical) destiny to transform?Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go get some asprin for my sudden, splitting headache.

EP is alive in some sense of the word, but, at least IMO, he is beyond the reaches of the mask's powers. The Great Beings forged the mask as a failsafe device for their creation (in some ways like a fuse in circuit breaker, and also like the electricial's toolbox), which in itself was designed to reunite Spherus Magna. The mask would not kill anybody there, because that would kind of beat the point of helping them. And since the EP was originally found on spherus magna, it should be concluded that he would be uneffected by the mask. Also, the great beings were worried about their upkeep technicians, as evidenced by Marendar. Would they give the mask the power to destroy all life on the planet they were trying to save? Finally, EP was used for certain components on the Mata Nui robot. If the Great Beings could create something as powerful as EP, why would they use a sentient something that destroyed their planet to make up some of the essential components to fix it? By this logic, the EP being should be more powerful than the mask.

I just thought of something. Though there's no way to confirm it for sure, I believe that the Ignika has an edge on Energized Protodermis.If I recall correctly, in 2010, the Ignika transformed Tahu from a Toa Nuva back into a Toa Mata. Also, mutations/transformations made by the EP are supposed to be permanent (if memory serves me right). So though we don't know what the EP could do to to the Ignika, we do know that Ignika is powerful enough to reverse the effects of EP, which are supposed to be permanent.-

While I stand under the bias that most of what happened on Bara Magna was annoying and seemingly contradictory to earlier stuff, and doesn't deserve to be canon, this goes back to what I said above. The mask has a tremendous amount of power over the life of the MU inhabitants, while the EP has a wider reaching power. Also, this is a reversion. I imagine that preventing a transformationis much more difficult.On the other hand, if farshtey confirmed that the mask has wider reaching powers ignore all this.And a question- do the Ignika's life destroying powers only work on protodermics? If no, that sort of breaks my above theory. Life giving must be more universal, based on the bath of vegitation it created on spherus magna (unless that was one of Mata Nui's powers).Basically, If I wasn't clear, I think EP would win. Not sure what would happen, but EP would win. Edited July 26, 2012 by atvan

[fishers64]

And a question- do the Ignika's life destroying powers only work on protodermics? If no, that sort of breaks my above theory. Life giving must be more universal, based on the bath of vegitation it created on spherus magna (unless that was one of Mata Nui's powers).Basically, If I wasn't clear, I think EP would win. Not sure what would happen, but EP would win.

No, the Ignika has power over SM's substances, seeing as it transformed the the Glatorian's weapons in TLR. I'd say that it would work on EP. Another thing that occurred to me - the EP has control over life, to transform or destroy it, as well as a power source, to create new life. Is it possible that the Ignika has a small amount of EP forged into it to make it work? If so, would the EP entity be able to control it?

[bonesiii]

Another thing that occurred to me - the EP has control over life, to transform or destroy it, as well as a power source, to create new life. Is it possible that the Ignika has a small amount of EP forged into it to make it work? If so, would the EP entity be able to control it?

Possible but unnecessary, since it's made of artificial protodermis, and that is likely a power protodermis has in general. I suspect that the main difference between EP and P is that EP can work any of the infinite protodermic powers into the transformations it causes thanks to its controlling mind, and as it's always in liquid form it isn't an efficient holder of specific protodermic powers itself. So in terms of powers besides transforming and destroying, it's like an all-in-one raw form.Which doesn't help me stop shrugging at this but yeah.

[darkslizer]

This is probably the biggest shrug topic I have ever seen. Given this, I haven't really been here that long, but enough about me.I'd probably think that it would super-charge the Mask, turn it into some giant monster that wants to eat Kanohi, or completely destroy it. I hope for the Universe's sake that it wouldn't destroy it, considering that life might explode into a giant fireball/supernova and every body dies... but who knows! It just might make everyone immortal by releasing its energies. Sorry, I'm thinking way too much about a big explosion now, gotta dash! (Just for the record, I felt very silly typing 'Gotta dash!' into this post.)

[-Jaller-]

When stuff meets EP one of three things is suppost to happen.1. If the thing introduced to the EP is destined to transform (Toa Nuva) then it will.2. If there is more than one item then those items may fuse together (Vezon and the Olmak)3. If the item has none of the above it will be destroyed (Karzahni plant)However the Mask of Life has two special things1. If you are not destined to were the mask you will be cursed.2. If you use the mask's power you will die (Matoro)I have to say I don't know. The things I listed may cancel eachother out, or give one a edge. This was a really good question.

[Katuko]

However, there is another question that came to mind: Mata Nui's consciousness is sealed within the Ignika currently, correct? What would happen if Mata Nui had a destiny to transform, but the Ignika itself didn't? Would Mata Nui's destiny to transform override the Ignika's (lack of) destiny to transform, or would the Ignika be destroyed, thus killing everyone in the universe and preventing Mata Nui from achieving his (hypothetical) destiny to transform?

In this case, Mata Nui would be affected, and the Mask of Life would likely be untouched. When the Toa Inika fired EP at the enslaved Matoran of Voya Nui, it seeped into them and destroyed the antidermis within. The Matoran were not affected at all, so it seems that EP will seek out the most prominent object first.Matoran < Makuta mind infectionIgnika < Mata Nui's willAfter the initial transformation, another dose of EP would be required to affect the Ignika. Judging by how even a small vial of EP could kill the Karzahni plant, and yet the Toa Nuva could climb out of the proto tubes after their transformation after being fully submerged in the stuff, I wonder how the EP decides when to start affecting people again. If the Toa Nuva jumped into a new pool of EP, they would likely be killed, and if the Toa Inika shot another Zamor at a cured Matoran he would likely die as well. But would hitting them with two rapid shots have any special effect? Is all the proto that is in contact with you during your transformation spent/consumed until you stop being in contact with it?Questions, questions. Edited August 16, 2012 by Katuko

[fishers64]

After the initial transformation, another dose of EP would be required to affect the Ignika. Judging by how even a small vial of EP could kill the Karzahni plant, and yet the Toa Nuva could climb out of the proto tubes after their transformation after being fully submerged in the stuff, I wonder how the EP decides when to start affecting people again. If the Toa Nuva jumped into a new pool of EP, they would likely be killed, and if the Toa Inika shot another Zamor at a cured Matoran he would likely die as well. But would hitting them with two rapid shots have any special effect? Is all the proto that is in contact with you during your transformation spent/consumed until you stop being in contact with it?Questions, questions.

Since the EP is a living being, it can likely null any additional effects of itself per each instance of exposure. It probably decides which thing it will affect, and what each "instance" of submersion is.

[Katuko]

That's true. I tend to forget that EP thinks for itself.

[Makuta Matata]

Depends on whether not it was destined to touch the Energized Protodermis.

[Timelady Gallade]

That pool of EP would curse anyone who touched it to sing Gangham style!