BZPRPG News and Discussion

[Ghosthands]

Under the current system, in the editor, find the 'Templates' tab on the right and click 'Infobox'. Fill in the fields. Voila.

[25K Now!]

That thing was a bit unwieldy when I used it back in the day.

[silo]

Thanks, I could have sworn that didn't happen before...

[Toatapio Nuva]

All clicking the infobox does is that it inserts one word in the page. You need to know about wiki formatting before you're able to make it into a proper template.

[shadow pridak money gang]

okay so the yumiwa page was a cesspool, but that brings up another rebuttal - that page was formatted almost perfectly, it was just full of extraneous and sue personality traits that were never pointed out IC or in a profile

 

so why not put more effort into enforcing actual standards re: quality instead of re: format?

 

-Tyler

[They]

Well, this is an EXCITING dialogue!  (I'm being serious.  Very happy to see this in the morning...)

 

I love what everyone's proposing, but allow me to toss in an idea: if you think something needs to be updated, like getting Jasix Dastana on the wiki, why not do it?  If you are complaining about the wiki being a community effort but not adding or updating, I dunno, it just seems sort of hypocritical.  I don't mean this in an offensive way, just a "let's talk about this concept" sort of introduction.

 

I think adding an event timeline up front and a fully customized bio on the back end could work great.  Players get their freedom, readers get their TR;DL.  Thoughts?

ALSO: my apologies for "jumping the gun."  I totally misread the conversation and thought the matter had been decided.  In the end, it's provided some great fodder for an excellent question, so I'm content.

[Nato G]

The problem with what you suggest is that a lot of us don't - as has been said before several times - know enough of the lore and history to be able to edit these sorts of things.

 

I primarily use the wiki for my own characters, locations, etc, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that respect.

[AuRon the champion]

"With great power comes great responsibility."

 

In other words, those with knowledge of past events ought to contribute, so that those who weren't around then can learn and reference these events.

[Constructelf]

Oi, just a thought.

 

Would a specialized topic in this subforum work better for this rather than N&D?

 

Also:

 

The problem with what you suggest is that a lot of us don't - as has been said before several times - know enough of the lore and history to be able to edit these sorts of things.

 

I primarily use the wiki for my own characters, locations, etc, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that respect.

With that in mind, could we possible designate a team of people, similar to the Mata Nui Weekly Team, to watch all the events and then record them to maintain minimum level of consistency and accuracy? Other people could contribute if they wanted to, but even if everything fell through the floor in terms of player contribution, at least that team of people would keep marching on.

 

As well:

 

I love what everyone's proposing, but allow me to toss in an idea: if you think something needs to be updated, like getting Jasix Dastana on the wiki, why not do it? If you are complaining about the wiki being a community effort but not adding or updating, I dunno, it just seems sort of hypocritical. I don't mean this in an offensive way, just a "let's talk about this concept" sort of introduction.

I don't know about other people here, but I personally have absolutely no idea how to edit a wiki page. Unless unedited paragraphs with no info boxes and dividers are par for the course, I won't be contributing until I can figure out what does what at the very least. It's for of a matter of "How the Karzahni do I edit this?!" more than "Eh, I'm too lazy to edit this..." (Though one could make the argument that I'm too lazy to learn wiki code ).

[Toatapio Nuva]

"With great power comes great responsibility."

 

In other words, those with knowledge of past events ought to contribute, so that those who weren't around then can learn and reference these events.

 

This should be the core idea of the wiki.

[25K Now!]

That sounds like a lot of work.

 

Can somebody just pester me with questions and I'll tell you and then you can add it to the wiki?

[Nato G]

It's only a lot of work because you have something like 50+ characters, if I recall correctly.

 

Most players have far less than that, so far that I've seen.

[25K Now!]

Grochi and Soosim have 40+.

[They]

I once had 20, so not as bad, but yeah the stats add up.

 

Also, if the motto is "those with knowledge should do the writing," rather than, "I will seek, learn, share, and create a community wiki," how is the wiki actually a community effort?  I'm seeing that word used a lot, but if the community isn't actually writing, what's the point of calling it one?   Players who are feeling intimidated by the wiki formatting have only to create a page for one of their characters and mess around for a little bit.  Look up a tutorial!  I was a complete numb-skull when I started last year, and now I'm using the code-editor because it's faster than messing with the surface layer.  Putting in a little time to learn the system (just like learning the difference between OOC, IC, and what constitutes a meta-gaming moment) invariably helps the process. 

 

Oh, about the idea of a MNW-like organization collecting info: what about joining the MNW and then adding your weekly reports to the wiki?

[Toatapio Nuva]

Not all people have the patience to learn the wiki system, and it's not something we can force them into.

 

I agree it's not a big thing for them to play around with it a while and create a single page though.

[Eyru]

 

 

With that in mind, could we possible designate a team of people, similar to the Mata Nui Weekly Team, to watch all the events and then record them to maintain minimum level of consistency and accuracy? Other people could contribute if they wanted to, but even if everything fell through the floor in terms of player contribution, at least that team of people would keep marching on.

 

You mean how the Mata Nui Weekly team is still marching on? Cause it's, uh, not.

 

Look, I love seeing people throw around all these big ideas, but here's the core of the matter: the wiki won't edit itself, and if you want it to provide helpful, up-to-date information, then do it yourself. Waiting for people with "more knowledge" to do it, or electing a "special team" of people to do the work won't solve anything.

 

Wikis are, by and large, community efforts, so if you see a page that needs to be made, why not make it yourself? If you don't know anything about it, then read up on it, or ask someone. Don't push the responsibility onto other people, then whine about how it's not done.

 

You want to add some details to an Akiri page? Do it.

 

You want to fix the timeline on a Piraka page? Do it.

 

You see a spelling mistake on one of the Koros' pages? For the love of all that is holy, just go and fix it! You don't need to be a multi-year veteran of the BZPRPG to work on the wiki. Ghost and Kughs aren't looking for professionals: they're just looking for people. Just do what you can, and do your best. If you need help, ask.

 

This issues has been made a whole lot more complicated than it needs to be. We want the wiki to be consistent and accurate. Bullet point-ed lists of interactions are a good idea in that regard. However, there's nothing stopping you from providing a more in-depth history in addition to that list. Best of both worlds, everyone's happy.

 

Now quit arguing and go do something useful, like, edit the wiki.

 

[Ghosthands]

I'm kind of confused by the way everybody seems to think you have to know Wiki code to make Wiki pages. Wikia uses a graphical interface for all but the more advanced formatting, so if you can use Microsoft Word, you should be able to write a Wiki page. And even for the more advanced stuff like templates and coding, it really doesn't take much time to teach yourself the ropes. It's easier than it looks.

 

(Oh, and Tapio, you're wrong about the template thing. At least, when I click the Infobox template, it gives me a little pop-up box where I can fill in all the fields for the Infobox.)

 

And yeah, Eyru's right. Well said!

[Toatapio Nuva]

I'm happy to hear that, in a way, we just got authorisation to edit the pages of others. This will definitely make editing the wiki easier. Off to the wiki!

 

Also Ghosthands, I tried the method you described, and it only creates the word {{Infobox}} to the page when I click it in the list of templates.

[Nato G]

That still doesn't solve the problem of so many of us NOT KNOWING the stuff that needs to be added to the underdeveloped pages.

 

I've briefly interacted with two of the Piraka once. I could write a whole paragraph about Lash's brief interactions with Hakann and Zaktan on their respective wiki pages, but that won't accomplish anything. The people who know these events and characters -better yet, the people who actually PLAY them - need to do something with these pages!

[Ghosthands]

I'm happy to hear that, in a way, we just got authorisation to edit the pages of others. This will definitely make editing the wiki easier. Off to the wiki!

 

Also Ghosthands, I tried the method you described, and it only creates the word {{Infobox}} to the page when I click it in the list of templates.

 

As I said, I didn't think there had ever been a rule against editing other people's pages, as long as it's constructive...

 

Are you using the graphical editor? Take a look at the top-right corner—is there a pair of tabs saying 'Source' and 'Visual'?

[Nato G]

Wait... I thought we were always allowed to edit other's pages (within reason). I've been adding links and categories to other player's pages for a while now.

Edited October 25, 2014 by NatoGreavesy

[silo]

As long as it's constructive, I thought you were allowed...

[Toatapio Nuva]

Ah, I'm not using the visual editor so that explains it...

[Daniel the Finlander]

Are you using the graphical editor? Take a look at the top-right corner—is there a pair of tabs saying 'Source' and 'Visual'?

THANK YOU

[Toatapio Nuva]

I decided to try out the mixe timeline and biography idea, and this is how it turned out. What would you think about this as a general format?

[Mel]

Would someone mind linking to a wikia tutorial?  I wouldn't mind creating a few pages but I've had quite a bit of difficulty with the formatting.

[shadow pridak money gang]

Well, this is an EXCITING dialogue!  (I'm being serious.  Very happy to see this in the morning...)

 

I love what everyone's proposing, but allow me to toss in an idea: if you think something needs to be updated, like getting Jasix Dastana on the wiki, why not do it?  If you are complaining about the wiki being a community effort but not adding or updating, I dunno, it just seems sort of hypocritical.  I don't mean this in an offensive way, just a "let's talk about this concept" sort of introduction.

 

this topic is rapidly becoming less and less N&D-worthy but i'll humor you with this one last post: because some of us are making the plot. 

 

look, do you want to know exactly why this pisses people off in the first place? i can tell you exactly why - because some of us are driving our own character arcs and player plots in an era of the bzprpg and don't have time to keep pages updated on the wiki at the same time. it's a tiring- task and i don't think there's a single person who doesn't appreciate the work the wiki guys put in. but at the same time, a lot of us just don't have the time until this 's over and done with. i can tell you right now why i don't have a page up for jasik and desdemona and dorian and reordin and avak with enough detail for new players:

 

because i frickin write jasik and desde and reordin with avak. and it's exhausting.

 

i have three or four barebones pages on the wiki that i haven't touched because i don't have the luxury of time to go in after every little plot event and add some stupid bullet point or a paragraph for each character. the maintenance work that a lot of people - not just staff, but akiri and piraka and captains of the guard and players - have put in to keep this arc from crashing and burning for a year and a half now is STAGGERING and i for one can safely say it's the least fun i've ever had in this game ever. at one point, i was doing the work of four staff members - and half of them i couldn't even get into contact with. think i'd be here if it wasn't for aaron needing the help? think i'm enough of a masochist to stick around in a game that started to eat up more and more of the time i had to myself and my friends in my last year of high school if it wasn't for the fact that nuju has no one to replace me? no. i wouldn't. and then you roll in and tell the people who have differing ideas on the wiki that they're coming across as hypocritical for not contributing every chance they get???

 

that's some serious brass huevos right there

 

you know what's a cool little website? this little number right here because of the sheer amount of freedom it gave people in modifying their own pages as they wanted and adding to them when they had time. this wiki lasted for years and years and through various shifts in setting/editors and would probably still be in action if we hadn't rebooted the NBZP again, so i don't think uniformity has ever been a problem or ever would have been a real problem if this hadn't been broached last night out of nowhere. plus i don't think well we can do both really affects people who just have to do more work now to edit in a bullet point timeline they really had no say in - and i'd even question if they have any say now, considering you're all "rah rah this is a great discussion but we pretty much already got our mind set up rah rah shish koom bah"

 

idk whatever. i'm in a really bad mood and i'm tired and i'm probably gonna regret making this post in a few hours but i just needed to get my thoughts out on all this right here and rn.

 

no shots, but nothing goes unseen.

 

-Tyler

[Razgriz]

ayy let it out brother

letting that stuff stew too bad for you anyway

forreal

[Silvan Haven]

It really gives you an idea of how long some people have been around when you see Sisen's name on the front page of the old wiki.

[Ghosthands]

Ok, I've had a whole day to think about this now, and a heck of a lot of different opinions to mull over.

 

The point of this timeline thing, at its core, is to be an easy option. I get the feeling everyone would be happier if it were just that: optional rather than compulsory, and on reflection, I can agree with that. It's not the format that's the problem: it's the incompleteness. The timeline is just a quicker and easier way of getting to that completeness, but you can take the longer road of long-form biography if you want.

 

Everybody happy with that?

 

(And yes, Tapio, that's exactly what I had in mind. Although, for characters who've existed longer than Onoroza, it would also be a good idea to split Arc 2 up into its three constituent chapters.)

Edited October 25, 2014 by Twelfth Ghosthands

[shadow pridak money gang]

mmm ghosthands drizzle that sweet compromise juice all over me handsum

 

-Tyler

[Razgriz]

don't let his feminine wiles sway you my brother

HOLD FAST

[Shadowhawk]

Just sayin', I'm with Ghosthands on this. All the way. I think it's a great idea, because I despise maintaining Biography sections and was actually in the process of reworking those sections of my wiki pages with bullet lists anyway, sooo...

Thing I don't get is, considering all the anger-heat I see in the air, wasn't it made clear enough that this is not being forced upon the community? If you have wiki pages for your characters, and if said pages' prose-style biography sections don't meet the wiki's quality standards (yes, people; strict organization, rules, and order are actually important to both the function and visual appeal of a well-maintained wiki), then you have the quick and simple option of just slapping together a bulleted list of links. Fast, easy. A lazy man's lifeline.
 
And if both prose and bullet lists are your thing, well, use 'em both! And if you don't like the wiki, well ######, don't use it! Why the hate, people?

E: Just to clarify, yes, I'm up-to-date on this discussion and I'm writing this post having just read Ghosthands' last one. #11630, I believe. The one where he so deftly clarifies the situation on all counts and proves himself a pinnacle of wisdom.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Shadowhawk

[25K Now!]

It's mostly because of the tone in which the information was conveyed.

 

People are affected more by how they perceive things.

[Krayzikk]

Because, and I myself went back and checked after reading your post, it was being forced. If you look all the way back, Kughii's first post implies a mandatory shift. Even Ghost's initial reformed proposition was a mandatory shift, just with the caveat that you could maintain a bio as long as the bullet list was prioritized over it. People perceive it as being forced because it was.

 

If the majority are reading something a certain way, then the odds that they're all wrong go down significantly. And even if they are wrong, it means that the information wasn't relayed that well.

[25K Now!]

Always communicate properly.

 

The moral of the story~!

[Some Random Phrase]

I was on here previously, but never really got into much. I have decided to rejoin. Does anyone have any advice?

[25K Now!]

Just do whatever you want that isn't against the rules.

 

I recommend running looking for plots.

[Some Random Phrase]

Okay.

[Not Quite Dead]

I was on here previously, but never really got into much. I have decided to rejoin. Does anyone have any advice?

 

make a character and shoehorn yourself into something going on in one of the threads.

 

(or ask nicely for interaction with people, probably better)

Edited October 26, 2014 by Tiragath