BZPRPG News and Discussion

[Nato G]

I would understand arresting a Makuta worshipper who was trying to kill/destroy someone/thing, but persecuting people just for their beliefs sounds kind of nazi-ish.

 

I think I'm going to make a passive Priest of Makuta and see how far I can go with this...

[Constructelf]

On the other side of the coin, what does Makuta have to offer? He's a god of destruction; aside from the fancy-schmancy vault loot, what's in it for you? Why would any sane individual devote their lives to him?

Edited October 31, 2014 by namcurtsnoC

[Void Emissary]

On the other side of the coin, what does Makuta have to offer? He's a god of destruction; aside from the fancy-schmancy vault loot, what's in it for you? Why would any sane individual devote their lives to him?

 

Actually, this is something that I've thought about it for a time.

 

Admittedly, Makuta is a god of death, darkness, and destruction.

 

That being said, he is also a god of power, ambition, and ruthlessness. None of these things are necessarily evil on their own; it's simply that Makuta and most of his followers use these concepts to sow corruption and further their own aims. However, these same concepts could be used by a morally-upright individual to bring justice to the island, if used carefully and conscientiously.

 

There's my two cents for y'all! 

 

(also i'm back haiiiiiii)

 

-Void

[Krayzikk]

I would understand arresting a Makuta worshipper who was trying to kill/destroy someone/thing, but persecuting people just for their beliefs sounds kind of nazi-ish.

 

I think I'm going to make a passive Priest of Makuta and see how far I can go with this...

 

Firstly, with one exception, every Makuta worshipper has been trying to do damage. It's kinda their whole behavioral pattern.

 

Secondly, there one very big distinction; Makuta kept the entire island oppressed for over a thousand years. If a single credible threat to him emerged, he snuffed it. With Rahkshi, Rahi, Dark Toa, whatever minion he felt best. When the Mata first fell, he reasserted his dominance by force and kept that dominance for centuries. 

 

Consider how much Mata Nuian society has advanced in the year, maybe a year and a half, since his defeat. Technology has jumped lightyears ahead of where it was. The actual ratio of criminals who escaped versus criminals caught tipped drastically in favor of the latter, and as a result, it can be understood that the crime rate is significantly down. The only credible threats emerged after Makuta's influence began to return.

 

Makuta is not only a god of destruction and darkness, and as a result his followers without exception permit or commit the same, he is one that has ruthlessly kept an entire people under his thumb for thousands of years. There isn't a single person on the island who hasn't lost multiple friends or family members to him or his creatures.

 

It's very, very justified.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Ninth Krayzikk

[Silvan Haven]

Boiled down, Makuta is Bionicle Hitler.

[25K Now!]

Iegasa's just that nice priest guy who makes tea but also is a Nazi.

 

Yay for being basically the only "peaceful" Makkybro Supporter.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Purple God

[Eyru]

I would understand arresting a Makuta worshipper who was trying to kill/destroy someone/thing, but persecuting people just for their beliefs sounds kind of nazi-ish.

 

No. You're on the bad guys' side here, bud, no two ways about it.

[25K Now!]

It's like worshipping the Chaos Gods.

 

You're obviously evil.

[-Joshua-]

 

On the other side of the coin, what does Makuta have to offer? He's a god of destruction; aside from the fancy-schmancy vault loot, what's in it for you? Why would any sane individual devote their lives to him?

 

Actually, this is something that I've thought about it for a time.

 

Admittedly, Makuta is a god of death, darkness, and destruction.

 

That being said, he is also a god of power, ambition, and ruthlessness. None of these things are necessarily evil on their own; it's simply that Makuta and most of his followers use these concepts to sow corruption and further their own aims. However, these same concepts could be used by a morally-upright individual to bring justice to the island, if used carefully and conscientiously.

 

This reminds me of Morgoth in Tolkien's mythology (for those not in the loop, Morgoth is Sauron's boss). Middle Earth was created by a carefully orchestrated song. However, Morgoth, the lead singer, felt that the original script was too tightly packed, and he argued that a perfect world could not exist without imperfection and emptyness. As such, he intentionally sang wrong to create disharmony in the world, thus causing *all* of the events that would follow in Tolkien's mythology.

 

One could argue that the characters in Tolkien's mythology would never have reached their full potential without that disharmony.

Edited October 31, 2014 by -Joshua-

[Nato G]

Light cannot exist without Darkness.

Edited October 31, 2014 by NatoGreavesy

[Keeper of Kraata]

But the Chaos gods can give you such good things!

[-Joshua-]

Light cannot exist without Darkness.

 

Actually it can, and it does, since Darkness simply does not exist. What we call "darkness" is simply the non-existence of light, the absence of any power - but it is not in itself a power. A being of darkness does technically not project power himself, but rather pushes other's away or snuffes it out of existence, hence it being associated with destruction.

Edited October 31, 2014 by -Joshua-

[Krayzikk]

Light cannot exist without Darkness.

Very nice philosophy.

 

Doesn't mean Makuta followers aren't, by their very nature, the villains.

 

That's not to say interesting, even Anti-Villain, characters can't exist. But Followers of Makuta are, without doubt, the black hats.

[Constructelf]

Light cannot exist without Darkness.

That analogy falls apart when you remember that light is -something- (EM radiation) and darkness is -nothing- (absence of said radiation, objects absorbing rather than reflecting the photons, etc). (Forgive me if my science made your eyes bleed).

 

I kinda get the Morgoth analogy, but Makuta, like others above me said, is not only the dark figure archetype but also the oppressive tyrant, and unless you like living in a fascist society where your rights and even your lives are at the pleasure of a being that might as well be evil incarnate, it's not a very good deal. Plus the fact that Makuta's whole schtick is militaristic oppression; what would a pacifist Makutaist look like?

 

It makes me wonder if Echelon has a screw loose somewhere. Is rationality out to lunch?

Edited October 31, 2014 by namcurtsnoC

[-Joshua-]

 

 

I kinda get the Morgoth analogy, but Makuta, like others above me said, is not only the dark figure archetype but also the oppressive tyrant, and unless you like living in a fascist society where your rights and even your lives are at the pleasure of a being that might as well be evil incarnate, it's not a very good deal.

 

Morgoth created the orcs by taking elves and doing... stuff. He also was an opressive tyrant, and indeed not a very good deal.

[Nato G]

Jeezus. It was a metaphor. Mata Nui is light, Makuta is darkness. You need both. If one side wins, then there's nothing left for the other to fight for (and there'd be no plot).

 

And on the flipside, I'd just like to point out that there are plenty of villains who don't worship Makuta, and I've seen a few Mata Nui people do incredibly nasty things as well. Who you worship doesn't neccessarily effect how you choose to act.

[soularin]

Darkness is always there until the light touches it. Have to say I agree with Joshua on the fact that darkness is merely the absence of light. Good, evil, it's all circumstantial. What happens to someone during their life shapes who they turn out to be.

[otter]

 

Light cannot exist without Darkness.

That analogy falls apart when you remember that light is -something- (EM radiation) and darkness is -nothing- (absence of said radiation, objects absorbing rather than reflecting the photons, etc). (Forgive me if my science made your eyes bleed).

 

Big problem here. Sure, we normally follow real-world physics, yeah, but in case you missed it, shadow and darkness actually are things that can be manipulated and controlled here - it's an element of this world. Kinda like in the Bionicle canon.

 

So sorry, but your science isn't as perfectly applicable here and Nato's metaphor still somewhat holds up, especially from a mythology point of view, something that has been seen even in real world cultures.

[Silvan Haven]

Pick a metaphor with less Asian philosophy.

[Timageness]

If I could insert my two cents here, I'd like to remind people that RPG's are generally geared towards being able to create a character and playing them however you wish to, as long as it's within reason and the rules of the game.

That being said, I've seen some followers of Mata Nui who are pretty brutal and even kill people, so I don't see why the opposite couldn't work. I'd personally play the character as if they were a reluctant evil, possibly somewhere along the lines of having a Faustian-complex in which they made a pact for a noble reason and thus had to sell out their allegiance to keep up their end of the bargain.

[Razgriz]

"I'm alright" --Hideo Kojima

Edited October 31, 2014 by Uncle Chael P. Sonnen

[Not Quite Dead]

"STANDING HERE" - Senator Armstrong" - Hideo Kojima

[25K Now!]

Makkybro's not a good guy to have around.

 

Bad for the economy.

[Not Quite Dead]

Yep.

 

I think the best way to determine good versus bad oppressive dictatorships (inb4i'mkilled) is via standard of living and technological/cultural advancement. Makkybro shut down both so into the trash he went.

[25K Now!]

The moment Makkybro's stranglehold disappeared, guess what we got?

 

Mecha suits and steam cannons.

[Nato G]

Except Makkybro already had that sort of techy stuff.

 

It's all in his Vault.

[25K Now!]

Actually that stuff was developed by native Onu-Matoran engineers, praise be.

[Nato G]

You're right. Makkybro's stuff is way better than what the Onu-Koroans have.

 

I take your steam cannon and raise you one plasma rifle. 

 

Your move. 

[Silvan Haven]

Exactly, the cool toys were in his vault. Not out where anyone could use them.

 

What point are you trying to make?

[Nato G]

Well, everyone's basically saying that it's only after Makuta's defeat that the island made any technological advances. I'm pointing out that the technology already existed and that Makuta had a whole lot of it. Because really, aren't Rahkshi just overpowered mech suits for Kraata? 

[Silvan Haven]

The only place it existed was inside Makuta's Vault. Looking at it from the entire rest of the island's point of view that stuff had never been invented.

[Nato G]

I'm just going to not bother prolonging this argument. 

[25K Now!]

Without the oppression of the evil Makkybro, the people of the island could actually get around to doing something~

[Nato G]

Without the oppression of evil Makkybro, there'd be no plot. Just sayin'.

Edited October 31, 2014 by NatoGreavesy

[25K Now!]

Hah, plot.

 

That's up to you, not Makkybro.

[PancakeShiners]

Er, hey guys.

 

Just thought that I'd pop in to let everyone know I'm still into the roleplay and stuff.  Just had things to deal with.

 

...since I have no idea what's been going on, and I'm still a little too new, I think I may just reintroduce my character all over again... haha... unless Pala-Koro got going again?

 

Either way, I think I'm gonna start with drawing my character a bit to get myself in the mood, then do some reading to decide what to do.

 

Hope to see you guys around soon! I look forward to roleplaying here again.  After all, this is about the only Bionicle-related thing I've done in years.  It'd be a shame to turn away from it.

 

~Pan

Edited October 31, 2014 by Pancake

[25K Now!]

Pala-koro's been inactive for a while, alas.

[Geardirector]

Welcome back, Pancake 

[Toatapio Nuva]

Great to see another player returning.

[Ghosthands]

Ooh, what an interesting conversation about good/evil/Light/Darkness/Mata Nui/Makuta. How can I resist?

 

I would understand arresting a Makuta worshipper who was trying to kill/destroy someone/thing, but persecuting people just for their beliefs sounds kind of nazi-ish.

 

 

I think it's surprisingly tolerant of Ta-Koronan law to allow Makuta-worship. To use the Nazi metaphor again, look at real-world countries: open support of Nazism is still illegal in many European countries. By worshipping Makuta, you condone his actions, including (for example) the murder of innocents. As you say, they might not act on this belief, but it would be incredibly naive not to consider such a person to be potentially dangerous.

 

Nobody's going to tell you you can't make a character who worships Makuta and isn't evil—by all means, I'm sure it would be very interesting—but it would be unrealistic to expect everybody to be trusting and accepting of them, given all that Makuta has done.

 

It makes me wonder if Echelon has a screw loose somewhere. Is rationality out to lunch?

 

 

Rationality? Echelon's perfectly rational, because rationality is always relative to world-view. From Wikipedia:

 

"Illustrating the relativity of rationality: if one accepts a model in which benefitting oneself is optimal, then rationality is equated with behavior that is self-interested to the point of being selfish; whereas if one accepts a model in which benefiting the group is optimal, then purely selfish behavior is deemed irrational. It is thus meaningless to assert rationality without also specifying the background model assumptions describing how the problem is framed and formulated."

 

One of Echelon's motivations is the pursuit of knowledge and power at any cost, with the added belief that morals are meaningless shackles that people impose on themselves. Even his most horrific crimes, from that viewpoint, are completely rational.

 

 

The moment Makkybro's stranglehold disappeared, guess what we got?

 

Mecha suits and steam cannons.

 

 

 

I think the best way to determine good versus bad oppressive dictatorships (inb4i'mkilled) is via standard of living and technological/cultural advancement. Makkybro shut down both so into the trash he went.

 

 

 

Now, this I will have to debate. Makuta never had the chance to establish an 'oppressive dictatorship', because he never conquered the six Koro. What you're describing wasn't a change from Makuta-rule to Matoran-rule: it was a change from war to peace. Suddenly, all the villages' resources that were going into maintaining the fight against Makuta could be used to innovate instead, and we got a technological and economic boom.

 

On the flip-side, what if Makuta had managed to properly conquer the island? He'd have full control of every village, its resources, and its populace. It wouldn't be difficult for him to find scientists and inventors with sufficient lack of scruples to work for him, and he could provide them with knowledge and technology (such as the stuff in his Vault) that they could never otherwise have acquired. An island under Makuta's control might well be more technologically advanced than this one.

 

 

Without the oppression of evil Makkybro, there'd be no plot. Just sayin'.

 

 

And what do the Matoran care about 'plot'? They don't know they're part of a text-based RPG with a plot—they just know that an eldritch god of darkness attacked them for a hundred years. You're using an OOC argument about an IC issue.