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Feminizing BIONICLE


Toa Green Ninja

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Here, you can discuss ways to add "curves and/or boobs and other feminine, or other petite features" to MOCs, and or mods of sets portraying female characters.

 

Also feel free to discuss or rant about any female sets we have received in the ten years BIONICLE has been around, including the upcoming Gali - Master of Water set (apparently, in many people's opinion, not very feminine looking), which began the discussion that got us kicked out of the 2015 topic.

 

(Yeah, we did get a bit off topic... I'll admit. But at least there is a place for this now.)

 

And, discuss this. Thanks to Aanchir for the idea.

 

Is that what this topic's about? To be honest I was kind of hoping it might be a topic about how the BIONICLE theme could be made to appeal more to girls and women.

Finally, listen to the mods.

 

I'm obviously comfortable with discussing how to attract girls and women to Bionicle. I'm even comfortable with discussing how to make MOCs and sets represent different body types accurately.

 

I am uncomfortable, however, with any objectification. Keep that in mind.

TALK!

Edited by Toa Green Ninja
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"We didn't lose the battle. Today, we just lost the fight." -Lloyd Garmadon
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I think the general consensus is that you can use anything when MOCing for that purpose as long as you're not using Nuva shoulder armor. Personally, I don't see why it's necessary at all. 

If you were having a discussion that got you kicked out of a topic, I'm not sure making a new topic for that same discussion is necessarily the best idea.

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When I build a female MOC, instead of focusing on Nuva boobs, impossibly slim waists and high heels as is often the style, I try to give them sleeker armor, a smaller build, and slimmer shoulders. I like it when a MOC uses realistic proportions as opposed to exaggeration to convey their femininity.

 

Once again though, I'm disappointed Lego didn't try it with Gali. As far as I can tell, it can be easily solved by pushing in the shoulders, flipping the HF torso upside down, adding some extra parts to attach the head and cover the waist, and slim her up a bit. I'll have to see how well it works once I get her.

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Is that what this topic's about? To be honest I was kind of hoping it might be a topic about how the BIONICLE theme could be made to appeal more to girls and women. Making more visibly female characters for them to identify with could help with that, but when you define "visibly female" as "having curves/breasts" it's easy for things to veer in the opposite direction (appealing to boys and men in terms of sex appeal, while making female fans even more uncomfortable).

 

All things considered, I think many MOCs go overboard in trying to give female characters pronounced, sculpted breasts. Curves can be good, but you don't want the characters to look like sex objects. I will admit I am as guilty of this kind of thing as anybody else, and I'll refrain from sharing any of my embarrassing older MOCs of female characters. I wouldn't know the perils of limiting one's understanding of the female body to "idealized" sexual characteristics nearly so well if I hadn't made so many mistakes in the past.

 

But to answer the question, I've found a lot of ways to make feminine designs in recent years. Either of the paw pieces from Hero Factory Savage Planet can help create an hourglass figure, such as on my MOCs Sophia Blaze and Kit Martello. These are just rudimentary examples — I'm sure a more accomplished MOCist could do better. Kit Martello also demonstrates how the spherical shell detail piece from the Breakout series can create a rounded tummy — which in many cases makes more sense for a figure with well-defined curves than a more petite waist. And this waitress figure showcases how you can use that spherical shell detail piece to create modest, stylized curves for the upper body.

 

Despite what some people seem to think, the chest plate from the Hero Factory Breakout series and Super Heroes constraction sets can also create some very nice, subtle feminine curves, particularly if you can manage to tilt it backwards slightly. I used this technique on a villain MOC I named Brimstone. Incidentally, this MOC also shows another great piece for making feminine curves — the shell detail piece with handle introduced in the Savage Planet series. Another creation of mine, Poison Dart, has a definite "hourglass figure" built from basic beams and shells. But her design is heavily stylized, without a chest that bulges forward considerably.

 

Sometimes just as important to making a creation look feminine as "curves" is keeping the skeletal proportions feminine. So for instance, if choosing between a 9x9 and a 7x9 torso beam, the 7x9 torso beam will usually be the more feminine-looking option, since the difference in width between the shoulders and hips is not so pronounced. Feminine shoulders also often slope downwards, whereas masculine shoulders tend to be more horizontal. These are rules of thumb, though, not universal standards. And it's worth noting that at the typical scale for constraction sets, "realistic" proportions for male and female characters vary less than you might think. A 7x9 or 9x11 torso beam can often work for male and female characters alike, unless you really want to exaggerate the male character's physique.

 

You can probably find tutorials that illustrate the diversity of female body types better than I can describe them.

Edited by Aanchir
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I think the general consensus is that you can use anything when MOCing for that purpose as long as you're not using Nuva shoulder armor. Personally, I don't see why it's necessary at all. 

 

If you were having a discussion that got you kicked out of a topic, I'm not sure making a new topic for that same discussion is necessarily the best idea.

No, they didn't get kicked out. The Official Bionicle 2015 had shifted to people talking about good ways to make feminine MOCs, so I told them to stay on topic and they should make a new topic if they wanted to discuss that. I'm not sure if I should have told them to stop, since I'm not an admin, but I didn't want the topic to get out of control.

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If you were having a discussion that got you kicked out of a topic, I'm not sure making a new topic for that same discussion is necessarily the best idea.

No, the only reason we couldn't discuss it was because it was getting a bit off-topic. Thus, this.

 

Is that what this topic's about? To be honest I was kind of hoping it might be a topic about how the BIONICLE theme could be made to appeal more to girls and women.

Good idea! I'll implement it.

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"We didn't lose the battle. Today, we just lost the fight." -Lloyd Garmadon
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Maybe the focus on "feminizing" Gali and other female characters should be less in how she looks and more in how she's written.

 

This is a good point, and I think one way to make female characters more pronounced/visible in the overall story would be to have some set naming conventions. For example, most female names in the real world end with "a", similarly perhaps in Bionicle they could end them with "i" (like Gali) or something that immediately tells you "this character is female". Of course not all the names have to follow the convention, but it would be a good way to differentiate the female characters instead of (or maybe in addition to) necessarily making them curvier or slimmer. :) Now is a good time to do this, since it's already a reboot.

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Once again though, I'm disappointed Lego didn't try it with Gali. As far as I can tell, it can be easily solved by pushing in the shoulders, flipping the HF torso upside down, adding some extra parts to attach the head and cover the waist, and slim her up a bit. I'll have to see how well it works once I get her.

I think making the hips that wide would look weird, even not accounting for the neck sticking out of her butt. I suppose the gearbox would solve the issue of then dealing with ridiculously small shoulders, but I still think that's a bit of an exaggeration of the hip difference between men and women.
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Maybe the focus on "feminizing" Gali and other female characters should be less in how she looks and more in how she's written.

 

 

This is a good point, and I think one way to make female characters more pronounced/visible in the overall story would be to have some set naming conventions. For example, most female names in the real world end with "a", similarly perhaps in Bionicle they could end them with "i" (like Gali) or something that immediately tells you "this character is female". Of course not all the names have to follow the convention, but it would be a good way to differentiate the female characters instead of (or maybe in addition to) necessarily making them curvier or slimmer. :) Now is a good time to do this, since it's already a reboot.

That would actually be really interesting to see. Your idea automatically made me think of masculine and feminine nouns in the French and Spanish languages, for example.

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"We didn't lose the battle. Today, we just lost the fight." -Lloyd Garmadon
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I have responses to some of the stuff said the the Official topic: 

There's definitely slight boobs. I'll have to MOC bigger and better ones when I get her...

First off, big misconception here, but not all girls have big mammary glands. That is a popular misconception that is false. You can MoC a girl without...that. Ugh. 
 

Yes, besides the bewbs thing, cause honestly, while it was amusing on Roodaka(isn't she supposed to be reptilian or something?) it really doesn't make sense. So I ask you, the people of BZPower: "what would a feminine build look like?"
 
'Cause seriously, I haven't the foggiest.

Okay, without getting into, er, that sort of thing, here's the basics - but keep in mind that all girls are different, so you have a lot of artistic license. 
 
Head and Jawline - more curved, can even be pointy. No square jawline. 
 
Arms - pencil-thin. They're not emanciated-thin like you see on TV, but they aren't bulky. Shoulders are small. CCBS shell parts are probably too thick, bones without the shells are probably just a little too thin. 
 
Hips/shoulders - Hips are as wide as the shoulders. Guys have hips that are narrower than the shoulders, and most CCBS torso beams have the shoulders wider than the hips. For a true feminine build, you would want the hip (the bottom of the torso) and the shoulder (the top of the torso) to be the same width. So it may pay to bulk the hips a little bit, but don't overdo it.

Chest - Girls don't have pecs, but not all of them have big mammary glands either. Top of chest is flat. Bottom of chest curves out, but it can do so only a little bit and still look feminine.

Legs and Feet: Rule of thumb - thick and muscular, especially in the thighs and hamstrings. Feet tend to be a bit smaller, but don't overdo it. 

 
Lastly, and everyone seems to miss this, but girls are short. Now granted, there are a few tall gals around, but most of us are shorter than guys, if only by a little bit. 
 
All of this is an IMO thing. Bionicle is biomechanical, and so a lot of this stuff can be fudged or dropped. But if you want a remote resemblance to female humanity, the above guidelines should help.
Edited by fishers64
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An excellent way to get more girls into Bionicle, hate to sound like a broken record, is to abolish the stupid sexist gender ratios. Not just in canon, but in practice, like we should have gotten in 2009. If 50/50 is still too scary for old white businessmen, then maybe try 33/66 instead of 16.66/83.33 (and definitely not 3.84/96.16 like 2009)

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Also, another thing some people mentioned in that other topic in Lego Discussion which I wholeheartedly support is showing girls playing with sets in Bionicle advertisements (assuming Lego actually wants to market the line to girls). At the very least, they could show them playing with Gali or the female sets since that would provide a sort of "in" for them to start getting interested in the story and other (male) characters.

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Also, another thing some people mentioned in that other topic in Lego Discussion which I wholeheartedly support is showing girls playing with sets in Bionicle advertisements (assuming Lego actually wants to market the line to girls). At the very least, they could show them playing with Gali or the female sets since that would provide a sort of "in" for them to start getting interested in the story and other (male) characters.

Maybe the members should take a photo like that next time there's some meetup of BZP folks, skip waiting for Lego to do that. That would be cool ^^

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Also, another thing some people mentioned in that other topic in Lego Discussion which I wholeheartedly support is showing girls playing with sets in Bionicle advertisements (assuming Lego actually wants to market the line to girls). At the very least, they could show them playing with Gali or the female sets since that would provide a sort of "in" for them to start getting interested in the story and other (male) characters.

But how often do you see anything other than a hand in Bionicle commercials? Not very often.

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Also, another thing some people mentioned in that other topic in Lego Discussion which I wholeheartedly support is showing girls playing with sets in Bionicle advertisements (assuming Lego actually wants to market the line to girls). At the very least, they could show them playing with Gali or the female sets since that would provide a sort of "in" for them to start getting interested in the story and other (male) characters.

Or girls playing with the sets in general.

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An excellent way to get more girls into Bionicle, hate to sound like a broken record, is to abolish the stupid sexist gender ratios. Not just in canon, but in practice, like we should have gotten in 2009. If 50/50 is still too scary for old white businessmen, then maybe try 33/66 instead of 16.66/83.33 (and definitely not 3.84/96.16 like 2009)

Also, another thing some people mentioned in that other topic in Lego Discussion which I wholeheartedly support is showing girls playing with sets in Bionicle advertisements (assuming Lego actually wants to market the line to girls). At the very least, they could show them playing with Gali or the female sets since that would provide a sort of "in" for them to start getting interested in the story and other (male) characters.

These would both be very good ideas, and while I understand the risks associated with them, I think they might be risks worth taking. I have no idea what the gender ratios for the current BIONICLE fandom might be like, but apparently the Ninjago TV show's viewing audience is around 30% female, so it's clear that kind of fantasy action storytelling appeals to girls. Introducing more female characters to the sets could not only potentially draw in even more female viewers, but also turn more of those existing female viewers into customers for the toy line.

 

It's worth keeping in mind that even Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers had two female rangers in its original team of six, and there are dozens of successful franchises with a team of three main characters including two male characters and one female character (Harry Potter springs to mind). So having 1/3 of the main characters be female is hardly unprecedented.

 

Including more girls in the advertisements would be good, though at this point we don't even know whether the ads for the new BIONICLE will show the faces of human actors. The old BIONICLE ads rarely used human actors at all, and most Hero Factory ads only show the actors' hands in the scenes that show people building or playing with the models (recent example). It's next to impossible to discern from their hands alone whether they're male or female, especially since these actors are usually pre-pubescent kids.

 

Getting more women on the design team and giving them more visibility for LEGO fans could be another good step, though it's not clear how much of that issue falls on the LEGO Group's hiring practices and how much falls on their pool of applicants for constraction design positions. I think most likely there's a little bit of both, and if the LEGO Group works harder to address the first problem then the second problem might eventually fix itself.

 

There are also lots of storytelling factors to be considered when trying to appeal to girls. I know it might be a bit of a cliche that girls love romance stories and boys think they're icky, but a LOT of the online activity I see from female fans of themes like Ninjago, Legends of Chima, BIONICLE, and Hero Factory includes "shipping" and romantic fan art and fan fiction. So abolishing the "no romance" rule could make girls with these sorts of interests feel less excluded from the community.

 

Also, obviously, including more female characters is just as important to the story as it is to the sets, and arguably easier (though of course a theme like BIONICLE with such a wide cast of characters sometimes leaves little room for secondary characters who don't appear as sets in the main story.

 

Language is a factor some people don't necessarily consider, but it can have a big role on the narrative. A lot of people seemed to think the use of the word "magic" in the description of the Mask of Creation sounded childish. That's obviously poppycock. But it does certainly stand out from the LEGO Group's earlier marketing strategy. And in my eyes, it's a step in the right direction. Magic is a buzzword that's extremely prevalent in girl-oriented marketing, presumably because it really excites girls. So working more words like that into the BIONICLE storytelling and marketing strategy could be a good move for appealing to a more diverse audience. Obviously, I'm not saying to completely replace boy-oriented buzzwords with more girl-oriented ones. There are some words like "beauty" that have extremely feminine connotations and might be a tough sell for boys if they were used in major promotional taglines. But there are other words that have cross-demographic appeal. Magic. Wonder. Even power, if you use it in a particular way — in fact, the tagline for one of the most recent My Little Pony toy lines is "Rainbow Power".

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 I for one will support the idea of Tahu getting a harem. :P

 

 Feminizing sets isn't hard. Kiina was a good example. Honestly, simply having the set look elegant is enough for me (though I'm all for more Roodaka builds). Gali 2015 is a good example of this. Simply don't give her a mustache or a massive jaw or a piraka face. I'm not sure if lego has an obligation to appeal more to the female audience. Playing into a stereotype in advertisement may end up being a turn-off. However, a well designed set will sell, even if the set is obviously female. 

 

 I'm all for magic. IMO, the mystique of Bionicle was one of its major selling points. 
 

 I'm not for human actors in advertisements. It breaks the 4th wall, and one of the best thing about Bionicle was the serious nature of it. It gave the universe a really fleshed out vibe. 

 

 Nevermind the girls, some guys I used to know on BZP shipped Jaller and Hahli and Macku and Hewkii.  

Edited by Prime Axiom
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Kiina was a good example.

 

Oh, Kiina is a great build, and looks very petite. She is still one of my favorite BIONICLE sets.

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Never having owned Kiina or Roodaka, I was obliged to MoC up a female figured Toa, which I did using the narrow inika torso and the Metru body, but that's a discussion for when I get the Gelu chest armour to finish her off properly. I focused on the thinner figure than giving her massive armoured boobs, so maybe I'm ahead of the curve(s).

 

If Lego declared, officially or not, the genders of the protectors to be roughly equal, a lot could be done to bring the 'romance' and shippers on board back. They're pretty much stuck with the 5:1 ratio in the Toa Okoto, but let's see what development the villagers get.

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Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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I don't really think that "feminizing" sets really does much, to be honest. Before we can discuss the anatomical structure of the female Bionicle, we need to address the skewed gender ratio. Others have spoken of it above. Why discuss how "feminine" the female characters should be when there are so few female characters to begin with? 

 

-Rez 

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Kiina was a good example.

Oh, Kiina is a great build, and looks very petite. She is still one of my favorite BIONICLE sets.

 

Eh, Kiina was a good try but unfortunately her more petite torso only served to make her arms and legs (which were fairly typical for a set of that era) even MORE ludicrously oversized than they were on figs with wider shoulders.

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Okay this part I am going to get over and done with NUVA BOOBS ARE ANNOYING they are way too over used and too big on female mocs to be used as boobs plus I know a guy who thinks the Nuva Boobs is the only chest armor to make a good female MOC *cough cough* ZwardAx *cough cough*.

 

Now that I got that over I have seen some pieces that can would for a female chest armor and some that are just "no". For example the second over used chest armor for female MOCs the Inika upper arm armor, it can work as a female chest armor really well like with my female MOC Nieson Dieono.
With HF parts that Aanchir bring up that can be used as female chest armor are other are some great idea but I will never agree with the black phantom chest armor and using HF shell armor for female chest just looks really odd to me.

 

Now with the shape and sizes of female MOCs shouldn't just be like skinny stomach big waist and chest *cough cough* BioRockDude Lynna that people make way too many copy of *cough cough*, there are different shape besides the hourglass. Also one of the MOCs that I am working on, I am trying to make chubby.

 

 

Is that what this topic's about? To be honest I was kind of hoping it might be a topic about how the BIONICLE theme could be made to appeal more to girls and women.


Good idea! I'll implement it.

Well it would be good to have a topic of that

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Once again though, I'm disappointed Lego didn't try it with Gali. As far as I can tell, it can be easily solved by pushing in the shoulders, flipping the HF torso upside down, adding some extra parts to attach the head and cover the waist, and slim her up a bit. I'll have to see how well it works once I get her.

I think making the hips that wide would look weird, even not accounting for the neck sticking out of her butt. I suppose the gearbox would solve the issue of then dealing with ridiculously small shoulders, but I still think that's a bit of an exaggeration of the hip difference between men and women.

 

 

Well, she's already pretty bulky (9 studs across the shoulders if I'm measuring correctly), so a 7L waist shouldn't be too bad. I'll have to try it out in LDD to see how it looks.

 

Out of curiosity, are there any women on the Bionicle design team? If not, that may be the problem. If Lego doesn't care enough to have some female opinions on design and story, they are obviously not trying to fix the issues.

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Now that I think of it, Kiina's build looks a lot like mine. o_O

 

Well, the torso proportions anyway, but eh.

 

To be honest, I don't know how much I care about female set builds apart from more variation. Streamlined slender builds like the ones in the Miramax movies certainly are appealing, but there are also plenty of nice designs to could be made based on other body types. I personally think buff ladies look pretty cool, and we could do with more stocky female builds in popular media.

 

As for how feminine Gali 2015 is: I think arguing about this is like arguing over what a Rorshach inkblot looks like; it's pretty subjective. I feel like if I didn't know Gali was female (or really anything about Bionicle), I am just as likely to assume she's supposed to be a guy. :\

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Out of curiosity, are there any women on the Bionicle design team? If not, that may be the problem. If Lego doesn't care enough to have some female opinions on design and story, they are obviously not trying to fix the issues.

 

 

Well Kari Vinther Nielsen is in charge of marketing or something, so maybe she can help popularize the theme among girls? :shrugs: I highly doubt the design team has any women in it, which is not a great sign, but it doesn't necessarily mean that Lego doesn't care about the issue.

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Maybe the focus on "feminizing" Gali and other female characters should be less in how she looks and more in how she's written.

 

I totes agree with this. Gali doesn't need to be specifically made to look "super feminine", but some extra emphasis would've been alright. I see Gali's form as feminine mostly becasue I think of her as a female character.

 

When I see female MOC's, I generally like what Click said, making some more feminine proportions but not going crazy and over doing things. The first thought that comes to physical, feminine Bionicle is often breasts, but proportions are definitely more/equally important.

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Huge?

You mean something like I don't know, This.

 

I'm fairly concerned with what you posted before it was removed... heh.

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Um.

 

I don't want to be rude, but there's a reason that the skewed gender ratio exists. I personally do not have the knowledge or qualifications to tell you if it's because boys are intended to be the primary audience, if it's because boys want to play with toys of boys, or if it's because girls make up a teensy fraction of the known consumers. However, I do know that somebody at Lego did not just poop out a 1:6 girl:boy ratio for an important toyline simply because Lego is made up of "old white businessmen" who have nothing better to do. 

 

Please don't kill me. 

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Once again though, I'm disappointed Lego didn't try it with Gali. As far as I can tell, it can be easily solved by pushing in the shoulders, flipping the HF torso upside down, adding some extra parts to attach the head and cover the waist, and slim her up a bit. I'll have to see how well it works once I get her.

I think making the hips that wide would look weird, even not accounting for the neck sticking out of her butt. I suppose the gearbox would solve the issue of then dealing with ridiculously small shoulders, but I still think that's a bit of an exaggeration of the hip difference between men and women.

 

 

Okay, yep, that was a bad idea. Just tried it out in LDD, and it looks ridiculous. The waist looks way too wide and flat, leaving the armor right-side-up looks gappy, upside down (with some armor on the "leg" ball sockets) just make the waist look massive. One of the biggest problems is the neck ball joint, which sticks out between the legs and looks really awkward, even when covered by an armor piece. It definitely looks better with some armor on the thighs and shrinking the shoulder.

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Um.

 

I don't want to be rude, but there's a reason that the skewed gender ratio exists. I personally do not have the knowledge or qualifications to tell you if it's because boys are intended to be the primary audience, if it's because boys want to play with toys of boys, or if it's because girls make up a teensy fraction of the known consumers. However, I do know that somebody at Lego did not just poop out a 1:6 girl:boy ratio for an important toyline simply because Lego is made up of "old white businessmen" who have nothing better to do. 

 

Please don't kill me. 

 

The reason isn't as simple as you think it is. The reason is often laid out as "hard facts" that elimination of female characters almost entirely is what boys want, but in reality it far more often boils down to tradition. (I was going to link to the FotR song here to be witty, but wow there's a lot more religious imagery in that song than I remember.) Basically, the more things are marketed towards boys with few to no female characters, the more boys will expect that of their toylines. It's not a hard fact, but a vicious cycle. If it were impossible for boys to enjoy something with better than disgustingly-low amounts of women, the predominantly-female MLP would not be the hit it is with boys/men.

 

Maybe there is some truth to boys preferring male characters to female characters, but certainly not enough to justify a 1:5 ratio (or 2009's ~1:24).

 

Plus, y'know, the inherent sexism in assuming ONLY boys will enjoy the toys with robots and fantasy worlds with elemental powers as mystical masks and basically anything that doesn't fall into the narrow scope of toys considered "girl things".

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Huge?

You mean something like I don't know, This.

 

I'm fairly concerned with what you posted before it was removed... heh.

 

Oh come on guys, They Know there are really people who are using Bohrok body as boobies.

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