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After (finally!) responding to a batch of questions in the LMB thread, Greg has stated that the Avohkii worn by the Shadow Takanuva have been drained of light. However, he says he does not know how the Avohkii would respond to being drained of light, and is open to having a discussion about what would happen.

 

In the same vein as our other canonization topics, let's talk this through and decide on suggestions to be made to Greg. Would the Avohkii retain their elemental light powers, but lose the ability to promote peace and understanding? Would they essentially become Kanohi Kraahkan? Would there be no change at all? Discuss.


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I think it would just become a powerless mask. Since it is the mask of light, removing its own power would just make it an ordinary one.

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Great: The Great Kanohi Avohkii allows its user to have Toa-level range and strength of Elemental Light powers. In addition, it can spread understanding to others, generating peace and trust. It can also sense moral light in other beings. While it is one of the few Kanohi to have Elemental Powers, it will not boost any pre-existing Elemental Light powers the user wields.

 

These are the powers of the regular Avohkii. My suggestion would be that a Shadow Avohkii could have the opposite powers of a regular one. For example,

 

1. Instead of giving someone Toa-level Elemental Light powers, it gives them Toa-Level Elemental Shadow powers. Though it wouldn't boost any pre-existing shadow powers.

2. It makes others violent and distrust each other instead of generation peace and trust. 

3. It could sense the moral darkness in other beings instead of the light in them.

 

My reasons for suggesting these is that shadow is the opposite of light. So if an Avohkii was turned into a Shadow Avohkii, I believe its powers would be the opposite as well. But that is just my opinion on this.

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Great: The Great Kanohi Avohkii allows its user to have Toa-level range and strength of Elemental Light powers. In addition, it can spread understanding to others, generating peace and trust. It can also sense moral light in other beings. While it is one of the few Kanohi to have Elemental Powers, it will not boost any pre-existing Elemental Light powers the user wields.

 

These are the powers of the regular Avohkii. My suggestion would be that a Shadow Avohkii could have the opposite powers of a regular one. For example,

 

1. Instead of giving someone Toa-level Elemental Light powers, it gives them Toa-Level Elemental Shadow powers. Though it wouldn't boost any pre-existing shadow powers.

2. It makes others violent and distrust each other instead of generation peace and trust. 

3. It could sense the moral darkness in other beings instead of the light in them.

 

My reasons for suggesting these is that shadow is the opposite of light. So if an Avohkii was turned into a Shadow Avohkii, I believe its powers would be the opposite as well. But that is just my opinion on this.

That makes sense, although... that is basically just the Kraahkan. >.>

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Great: The Great Kanohi Avohkii allows its user to have Toa-level range and strength of Elemental Light powers. In addition, it can spread understanding to others, generating peace and trust. It can also sense moral light in other beings. While it is one of the few Kanohi to have Elemental Powers, it will not boost any pre-existing Elemental Light powers the user wields.

 

These are the powers of the regular Avohkii. My suggestion would be that a Shadow Avohkii could have the opposite powers of a regular one. For example,

 

1. Instead of giving someone Toa-level Elemental Light powers, it gives them Toa-Level Elemental Shadow powers. Though it wouldn't boost any pre-existing shadow powers.

2. It makes others violent and distrust each other instead of generation peace and trust. 

3. It could sense the moral darkness in other beings instead of the light in them.

 

My reasons for suggesting these is that shadow is the opposite of light. So if an Avohkii was turned into a Shadow Avohkii, I believe its powers would be the opposite as well. But that is just my opinion on this.

That makes sense, although... that is basically just the Kraahkan. >.>

 

I was kind of thinking the same thing when I made that post. :P Though I do see two differences between a Shadow Avohkii and the Kraahkan.

 

1. The Kraahkan blasts non-Makuta beings who touch it when it is not being worn. A Shadow Avohkii probably wouldn't do that, sense the Light version didn't blast beings with Light bolts when not being worn.

2. The Kraahkan gives its wearer Makuta-Level range and strength over anger, fear, and Elemental Shadow. A Shadow Avohkii would only give a wearer these powers at a Toa-Level. (Except for Fear, because I don't think a Shadow Avohkii would be able to make someone afraid. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.) 

 

So basically, I do see the similarities between them. But I think there would also be enough differences between them so that the Shadow Avohkii wouldn't be considered a weaker version of the Kraahkan.

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So basically we're talking about a weaker version of the Kraahkan? That's a pity, I always had assumed that the Avohkii and the Kraahkan were the same power level, just opposite ends of the power spectrum. 

 

(random question, but what use does the Kraahkan do, giving only Makuta-level shadow powers to a Makuta when Makuta already have that power?)

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I don't see why they would change at all; it's a unique mask, to be sure, but it's still just a mask. Half-drained Takanuva wore one without any major consequences.
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Takanuva was half-drained, therefore the Avokhii he wore would still be a Mask of Light.

 

As for the Shadow Avokhii, I think that we're looking at a Kraahkan, without the self-defense mechanism. Toa-level powers of Shadow, the ability to cause discord (Not just misunderstanding, but jealousy and hatred) among others. I like to think it would still detect Moral Light, helping its user to attack/avoid those beings with the ability to nullify their element. Like Alt-Teridax would use the shadow-detecting ability of the Alt-Kraahkan.

 

(How did the Kraakhan get the self-defense mechanism anyway?)

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If anyone brings up the reply I made to Greg, that was made before this topic came up...

 

I think it would basically be powerless, because the mask doesn't have any 'inner darkness'. That would be like shunning the dark from a Mask of Shadows, it doesn't have any inner light.

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(How did the Kraakhan get the self-defense mechanism anyway?)

 

There's no official explanation, but I assume Teridax commissioned Artakha to add that feature, or perhaps programmed it into the mask himself. Another possible explanation would be that, since the Kraahkan is an artifact of moral darkness, it manifests the destructive urges of moral darkness through violence (similar to the way that the Avohkii shone guiding light to help its bearers).

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I think it would basically be powerless, because the mask doesn't have any 'inner darkness'. That would be like shunning the dark from a Mask of Shadows, it doesn't have any inner light.

I think it would have to contain some sort of power in it. Because a Toa wearing a powerless Kanohi would probably be like a Toa not wearing a Kanohi at all, which results in the Toa's power being greatly weakened. And since the only beings we've seen in the story that wore Shadow Avohkii, the Shadow Takanuva, used their shadow powers in battle, we can probably assume that the Shadow Avohkii themselves have power in them as well. 


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Well, in the Melding universe, Teridax gained light powers, and although his mask turned gold it still retained all shadow powers. Given this, I think we can assume that the Mask of Light would turn black, but would retain all of its light powers.

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I think it would basically be powerless, because the mask doesn't have any 'inner darkness'. That would be like shunning the dark from a Mask of Shadows, it doesn't have any inner light.

I think it would have to contain some sort of power in it. Because a Toa wearing a powerless Kanohi would probably be like a Toa not wearing a Kanohi at all, which results in the Toa's power being greatly weakened. And since the only beings we've seen in the story that wore Shadow Avohkii, the Shadow Takanuva, used their shadow powers in battle, we can probably assume that the Shadow Avohkii themselves have power in them as well. 

 

Powerless as in, it keeps the Toa alive and well, but doesn't have any special powers...

 

The Shadow Takanuva are Toa of Shadow... They don't need a mask to do what their elemental powers can do better. Same with Takanuva... He only ever used his mask like, what, once? When he tried to shine a light with his mask or something in the first BIONICLE Legends book?


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Well, in the Melding universe, Teridax gained light powers, and although his mask turned gold it still retained all shadow powers. Given this, I think we can assume that the Mask of Light would turn black, but would retain all of its light powers.

 

This is the most sensible suggestion thus far. We have precedent.

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Erm.. that.. makes a lot of sense...

 

HOWEVER, Greg says that they don't wear masks that promote light and peace...


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I sent him this about it:

 

 

 

Would it be safe to say that the Avohkii and Kraahkan being the masks they have their own form of AI or Sentience. Not to the level of intelligence that say a Matoran or even a Rahi would have, but enough to react to certain stimuli. Like we have the example of when the Kraahkan pummeled Reidak with shadow blasts when he picked it up. Plus considering their powers, well we've seen what the balance of light and dark within an entity can do in the MU. What do you think? Also would it also be safe to say the Avohkii like the Kraahkan is also made of Protosteel?

 

He shot it down though. Could someone ask him if the Avohkii is made of Protosteel though, since its like the Polar opposite of the Kraahkan


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Well, in the Melding universe, Teridax gained light powers, and although his mask turned gold it still retained all shadow powers. Given this, I think we can assume that the Mask of Light would turn black, but would retain all of its light powers.

This.

 

It's pointless to have a mask change power with the Toa, especially since it didn't happen with Makuta. It asks more questions than it answers, so keep the MoL controling light, and not a Kraahkan.

Just how alt.Teridax sees his mask as a constant symbol of temptation and his battle over darkness these alt.Takanuva can find their mask as a reminder of their weakness, or maybe even stand as a symbol for their salvation.

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I don't see why they would change at all; it's a unique mask, to be sure, but it's still just a mask. Half-drained Takanuva wore one without any major consequences.

+1

 

Furthermore, it's the inner Light of Takanuva which partially drained out of him, not the Elemental Power of Light of his mask.

So, I don't understand why masks of The Shadow Takanuva group would be out of Light, because the logic who applies to Takanuva should remain the same: their inner light were drained, not the Elemental Light of their Avohkii. Consequently, all of these Avohkii should simply stayed Avohkii.

Edited by Du7734
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Though it does seem odd to have a mask directly opposed to yourself (if they used the Avohkii, it would probably burn them slightly), it does make the most sense based on the argument above. Takanuva was drained, not the mask, and just draining it shouldn't change the power (supposedly).

 

Is there a possibility that, if a Shadow Leech was set directly on the mask, it could devour the mask's light?

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Though it does seem odd to have a mask directly opposed to yourself (if they used the Avohkii, it would probably burn them slightly), it does make the most sense based on the argument above. Takanuva was drained, not the mask, and just draining it shouldn't change the power (supposedly).

 

Is there a possibility that, if a Shadow Leech was set directly on the mask, it could devour the mask's light?

They would simply stop using them : the Teridax from the Melting Alternative Universe don't use his Kraahkan and it always contains the Elemental Power of Shadow.

 

I don't think. Shadow Leeches drain inner Light, not Elemental Light.

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I'm pretty sure that they would all be standard Avohkiis, with the power of light. Anything else contradicts existing canon.
 

4) The alternate shadow Takanuva's all still wear Avhokii's, right?
 
4) I don't think that has ever been said anywhere, to my knowledge.
 
* * *
Here's another question.

1) Would the Shadow Takanuva wear masks of light, or would they wear some other mask?

I doubt their masks would have changed. Takanuva's wouldn't have if he had been drained completely.
 

 
The wording for that is clunky, but I'm going to go with 2010 Greg. 

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Based on the masks of Melding Teridax and 2008 Takanuva, I would assume that the Avohkii kept it's light powers.  But keep in mind that if this is true, Tridax must have believed that an Avohkii was better for the shadow toa than than a weaker version of Krahkaan.  So, Is the Avohkii better for a Toa of Shadow?  Yes, it is.

  1. The Toa would be able to control both Light and Shadow.
  2. The Toa could use the masks ability to inspire trust against enemies, making them let there guard down.  Shadow beings (such as Makuta) have used deception before. 
  3. The masks ability to detect Moral Light in others would allow the Toa to find targets more easily.

Remember, Tridax only captured alternate Takanuvas, all of whom wore the Avohkii, as opposed to going into other alternate universes with other Toa of Light who can access there Av-Matoran ability.  I find it unlikely that he would have done this if the mask would have turned into a weaker Krahkaan, as that would have been less useful.

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Well, in the Melding universe, Teridax gained light powers, and although his mask turned gold it still retained all shadow powers. Given this, I think we can assume that the Mask of Light would turn black, but would retain all of its light powers.

This is a lot better suggestion for the Shadow Avohkii than mine posted above, so I'm going to go with it as well. As others have already stated, this does make more sense story-wise and N.S.M.8 makes some points for it as well. 

 

So consider my opinion changed. :)

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Well, in the Melding universe, Teridax gained light powers, and although his mask turned gold it still retained all shadow powers. Given this, I think we can assume that the Mask of Light would turn black, but would retain all of its light powers.

That is actually a very good idea. I'm supporting this.

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He shot it down though. Could someone ask him if the Avohkii is made of Protosteel though, since its like the Polar opposite of the Kraahkan

 

Actually, I always thought that because the Kraahkan is made from Protosteel, it's polar opposite would probably be something Antidermis related. I always pictured Antidermis as a separate material from Protodermis, so it might have some form akin to "antisteel" or something. Of course, I'm probably wrong and Antidermis is just that shadowy fart cloud that makes Matoran go cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.


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I brought that theory before Greg, and he has responded.

 

 

 

I am running a BZPower thread to discuss the Shadow Takanuva's Avohkii. One person brought up a very good point: in the Melding alternate universe, Teridax banished his inner darkness, but his Kanohi Kraahkan did not experience any change in its powers. It follows that the same thing should have happened to the Shadow Takanuva's Avohkii. Since the Toa, not the Kanohi, were drained of light, there would be no effect on the Avohkii.

 

Everyone who has posted since that argument was made agrees with that line of thinking. The only objection raised is that, some weeks ago, you said "Shadow Takanuva would not wear masks that promote peace and light". What do you think, given this information?

I think it is a valid argument. I have only two qualms about it:

 

1) Light is so toxic to a being of shadow that it is hard for me to picture them using it as a weapon. It would be like Dracula throwing garlic at people.

2) I am not entirely sure the Melding can be used for evidence, simply because the rules of reality can be different in different universes. I would not say that RULES OUT your theory, by any means -- it is not a strong enough objection to do that, just a minor point.

 

I don't find #2 very persuasive at all, but #1 is a valid objection. Somebody else then pointed out that the Shadow Takanuva had never been seen to use the Avohkii, and Greg finds that to be a reasonable explanation.

 

 

 

 

1. did the shadow takanuva ever use their masks? i was kind of thinking that perhaps the mask didn't change, but b/c they were now beings of shadow like you said, they just didn't use the mask... they made sure it was turned off all the time.

I don't recall them ever using their masks in story, so that theory works too.

Edited by Yaldabaoth

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I'm okay with them not actually having Avohkii at all, since an earlier Greg quote seems to imply that.

 

I didn't like the AU explanation at first, but then thinking about it, it makes more sense. In the Melding universe, terminology is very different, so it makes sense that certain rules and functions would have changed.

Edited by Dorek

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I'll ask Greg for clarification, but I want to get my facts straight first. Are we thinking that the Shadow Takanuva wore Kanohi Avohkii, but didn't use them, or that they exchanged their Kanohi Avohkii for different masks?

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I'll go for that they wore them, but didn't use them. It would be very difficult to get new masks for every last shadow Takanuva, and the image of a black Avohkii looks very cool in my mind. Even though the power wouldn't change, I still assume the shape and color would change, as it did for 2008 Takanuva.

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I'll go for that they wore them, but didn't use them. It would be very difficult to get new masks for every last shadow Takanuva, and the image of a black Avohkii looks very cool in my mind. Even though the power wouldn't change, I still assume the shape and color would change, as it did for 2008 Takanuva.

I'm with this guy. 

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I would agree that most the Shadow Takanuva probably wore Shadow Avohkii but didn't use them. 

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Is there any evidence that each single Takanuva from each single altverse wore the same mask prior to his capture?

And why not both options? Some wear their Avohkii, some wear other masks.


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Takua would have never turned into Takanuva without that mask, it's kind of his most defining feature.

Are you gonna say that for all the Takanuvas of all the altverses?

Also, is donning Avohkii the only way for av-matoran of becoming the toa of light?

Also, does donning Avohkii prevent you from using other masks?

Edited by Mjolnitor
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Takua would have never turned into Takanuva without that mask, it's kind of his most defining feature.

Are you gonna say that for all the Takanuvas of all the altverses?

Also, donning Avohkii isn't the only way of becoming the toa of light.

Also, does donning Avohkii prevent you from using other masks?

 

Well, yes. Otherwise, it would be a different Toa that just happened to have the same name and element. I suppose they could have had an Avohkii but replaced it with a different mask before Makuta came, but I don't think anyone would want to give up their legendary mask of light.


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Otherwise, it would be a different Toa that just happened to have the same name and element.

Isn't the only toa of one altverse named Takanuva and having light powers Takanuva of that altverse?

 

 

 

I suppose they could have had an Avohkii but replaced it with a different mask before Makuta came, but I don't think anyone would want to give up their legendary mask of light.

 

Well, they didn't want to give up their universes either.

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TOO LATE.

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I think it would basically be powerless, because the mask doesn't have any 'inner darkness'. That would be like shunning the dark from a Mask of Shadows, it doesn't have any inner light.

 

I think it would have to contain some sort of power in it. Because a Toa wearing a powerless Kanohi would probably be like a Toa not wearing a Kanohi at all, which results in the Toa's power being greatly weakened. And since the only beings we've seen in the story that wore Shadow Avohkii, the Shadow Takanuva, used their shadow powers in battle, we can probably assume that the Shadow Avohkii themselves have power in them as well.

No, Alt Teridax absorbed light to create shadow

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