OFFICIAL Bionicle 2015 Topic

[Epsilon8]

 

 

All that really bothers me is this idea some people seem to have that lego... SHOULDN'T ever expand the cast of characters. Like that's a bad idea.

 

 

They have plenty of opportunities to expand the cast of characters; no matter how much they rerelease the Toa, I highly doubt they're going to rerelease the Protectors each year. If they follow a similar release pattern, that means at LEAST six new characters each winter wave.

 

People are protesting adding more Toa because you only need Pinky and the Brain. There shouldn't be a Larry.

 

It's not necessarily six new characters each wave though - more likely just six new nameless mooks for them to fight, especially if the rumours about the Bohrok next year are to be believed...

[NickonAquaMagna]

 

 

All that really bothers me is this idea some people seem to have that lego... SHOULDN'T ever expand the cast of characters. Like that's a bad idea.

 

 

They have plenty of opportunities to expand the cast of characters; no matter how much they rerelease the Toa, I highly doubt they're going to rerelease the Protectors each year. If they follow a similar release pattern, that means at LEAST six new characters each winter wave.

 

People are protesting adding more Toa because you only need Pinky and the Brain. There shouldn't be a Larry.

 

 

But Vakama and Jaller were no Larry. That's why I think they really worked as Toa. We knew them right from the beginning, so because they were established characters for a long while beforehand, it's not like they came out of nowhere later on to complicate things.

 

I like the Protectors as representatives of their villages, but aside from that... they're nobody to me. I'd honestly be quite surprised if anyone managed to form some personal attachment to the Protector of Fire the way they might with Vakama. That's because I don't think the protectors were made with that deep of a connection in mind. They're just there. I don't want more characters created with that mindset, though. I don't want new characters for the sake of new characters, I just... I'd like to see characters who could be on par with the Toa, rather than being relegated to standing in their shadow.

 

Can anyone honestly tell me that they suddenly disliked Vakama or Jaller for being a Toa?

[Pohatu: Uniter of Stone]

How about the Toa go to SPAAAAAAACE and one of the stars has a color that reminds us of a certain object in Gen 1 that still confuses us.

[dviddy]

 

 

 

 

 

All that really bothers me is this idea some people seem to have that lego... SHOULDN'T ever expand the cast of characters. Like that's a bad idea.

 

They have plenty of opportunities to expand the cast of characters; no matter how much they rerelease the Toa, I highly doubt they're going to rerelease the Protectors each year. If they follow a similar release pattern, that means at LEAST six new characters each winter wave.

 

People are protesting adding more Toa because you only need Pinky and the Brain. There shouldn't be a Larry.

But Vakama and Jaller were no Larry. That's why I think they really worked as Toa. We knew them right from the beginning, so because they were established characters for a long while beforehand, it's not like they came out of nowhere later on to complicate things.

 

I like the Protectors as representatives of their villages, but aside from that... they're nobody to me. I'd honestly be quite surprised if anyone managed to form some personal attachment to the Protector of Fire the way they might with Vakama. That's because I don't think the protectors were made with that deep of a connection in mind. They're just there. I don't want more characters created with that mindset, though. I don't want new characters for the sake of new characters, I just... I'd like to see characters who could be on par with the Toa, rather than being relegated to standing in their shadow.

 

Can anyone honestly tell me that they suddenly disliked Vakama or Jaller for being a Toa?

Jaller? Yes. All of the Inika lost all of their prior characterization from previous media, mostly because Greg didn't seem to like the MNOG story so he tended to ignore it. But prior character growth and personalities were ignored and it was intensely frustrating. I would rather that not ever happen again. I have a strong distaste, as do many fans from the earlier years, of the Inika/Mahri group. Edited February 5, 2015 by DeeVee

[NickonAquaMagna]

 

 

 

All that really bothers me is this idea some people seem to have that lego... SHOULDN'T ever expand the cast of characters. Like that's a bad idea.

They have plenty of opportunities to expand the cast of characters; no matter how much they rerelease the Toa, I highly doubt they're going to rerelease the Protectors each year. If they follow a similar release pattern, that means at LEAST six new characters each winter wave.

 

People are protesting adding more Toa because you only need Pinky and the Brain. There shouldn't be a Larry.

But Vakama and Jaller were no Larry. That's why I think they really worked as Toa. We knew them right from the beginning, so because they were established characters for a long while beforehand, it's not like they came out of nowhere later on to complicate things.

 

I like the Protectors as representatives of their villages, but aside from that... they're nobody to me. I'd honestly be quite surprised if anyone managed to form some personal attachment to the Protector of Fire the way they might with Vakama. That's because I don't think the protectors were made with that deep of a connection in mind. They're just there. I don't want more characters created with that mindset, though. I don't want new characters for the sake of new characters, I just... I'd like to see characters who could be on par with the Toa, rather than being relegated to standing in their shadow.

 

Can anyone honestly tell me that they suddenly disliked Vakama or Jaller for being a Toa?

Jaller? Yes. All of the Inika lost all of their prior characterization from previous media, mostly because Greg didn't seem to like the MNOG story so he tended to ignore it. But prior character growth and personalities were ignored and it was intensely frustrating. I would rather that not ever happen again. I have a strong distaste, as do many fans from the earlier years, of the Inika/Mahri group.

 

 

Oh.... I didn't know people felt that way. Well, all right then...? I mean, I thought they were pretty in-character for the most part, at least as Matoran in the first coupla' Legends books. I don't remember their personalities changing that much when they became Toa.

 

I just think it's incredibly narrow minded to only want to see the same heroes again and again. I have a hard time imagining how they could drastically change how the Toa look to make them feel fresh, while still looking as good as they do now. Once or twice, sure, but after five years or so? With characters in lines like Ninjago, it's easy, because... well, all you really have to do is change their clothes.

 

I just don't see how introducing a new Toa team would suddenly ruin Bionicle like people are making it sound.

 

I mean, heck, minor spoilers here, but even in my story, Calor, Ahkmou and the others aren't always going to be at the forefront. In the last coupla' arcs I have planned, I'll be introducing a new Toa team (consisting mostly of previously established characters) having to rescue the previous team. I thought it was a good idea, because by then, most of the Toa Novus will have finished their character arcs and developed as much as they really can. But I guess I'd better think twice about it, now. >shrugs<

Edited February 5, 2015 by NickonAquaMagna

[Toa of Gallifrey]

I definitely want the cast to change. Something that made Bionicle great to me was the focus shifting to previous minor characters over time. Seeing Jaller, Hahli and co. as Toa was the coolest thing ever.

[NickonAquaMagna]

I definitely want the cast to change. Something that made Bionicle great to me was the focus shifting to previous minor characters over time. Seeing Jaller, Hahli and co. as Toa was the coolest thing ever.

 

Well, it showed that Tahu and his particular group of Toa weren't the only names in the Bionicle universe that mattered.

[CeeCee]

 

I definitely want the cast to change. Something that made Bionicle great to me was the focus shifting to previous minor characters over time. Seeing Jaller, Hahli and co. as Toa was the coolest thing ever.

 

Well, it showed that Tahu and his particular group of Toa weren't the only names in the Bionicle universe that mattered.

 

Yeah I have to agree. Just makes the universe feel a bit more fleshed out. I am hoping that this year is just for the Toa and once they are introduce we can start looking into some more named characters to join them

[Makuta Miras]

On the new Toa subject, I personally do want other teams, although like others have said before me, new teams shouldn't be rotated in whilst other teams are still active in the background. Otherwise, you get what happened with Nuva in 2008, seeing as there hadn't been sets of them for six years. 

[Irrie]

On the new Toa subject, I personally do want other teams, although like others have said before me, new teams shouldn't be rotated in whilst other teams are still active in the background. Otherwise, you get what happened with Nuva in 2008, seeing as there hadn't been sets of them for six years. 

I agree with you on that. 

I've devised a way that 2005 could have been improved, since that year is often looked down upon in the community. The Toa Nuva go to the city after the 1,000 years and find that the Visorak have taken control while the Turaga and the Matoran were gone. They get captured, mutated into Hordika, meet the Rahaga, and have to save Turaga Dume from the coliseum. This would require some rewriting, such as how the Matoran were transported to Mata Nui, how the conflict with the Rahi Nui shaped out, the introduction of the Tahtorak, and some other things, but I've got the concept down for it. 

That way, the Bionicle fans got the Nuva again between the Metru and Inika/Mahri. Plus, it's a lot more believable to see Tahu turn against the Toa than Vakama, IMO. 

But that's slightly off-topic. My point is, it would be good to introduce new Toa teams, however not for long gaps between them. Either kill off retire all of Tahu's team, or have them return frequently. 

Edited February 5, 2015 by The Irrational Rock

[Aanchir]

 

I don't entirely get why people seem to think the current Toa will "get stale". There are plenty of franchises that manage to stick with the same main characters year-in and year-out without that becoming an issue. LEGO Ninjago, for example, is on its fifth year with more or less the same main characters as it started out with. As of this summer, each of the five main Ninja will have been released in ten or more different forms!

 

Now, I know Ninjago isn't a constraction theme. But from a storytelling standpoint, that doesn't make any difference at all — it's not as though constraction characters are guaranteed to become boring more quickly than minifigure characters. And as far as sets are concerned, how much difference will it really make to the building experience whether future Toa sets are new characters or new versions of established characters? It's not as though a new character is guaranteed to deliver a revolutionary building experience, or an established character is guaranteed to feel like a rehash of the previous version of the character. What's more, there is no mandate that you have to buy every version of every character.

 

I think it's a bit premature to be talking about this anyway. I think most of us can agree that it would be a bad idea to retire the current team of Toa before they've even gotten two years as the main characters. And that means we will almost certainly be getting new versions of the Toa at some point in 2016. It would be poor business to keep the current Toa as main characters without having any version of those Toa available on store shelves, and it would also be poor business to keep restocking shelves with the same exact 2015 Toa sets over a year and a half after their release.

 

All that really bothers me is this idea some people seem to have that lego... SHOULDN'T ever expand the cast of characters. Like that's a bad idea.

 

I'd be fine with new characters being added, just like how Hero Factory and Ninjago (or for that matter, non-LEGO franchises like Transformers and My Little Pony Friendship is Magic) have added new characters over the years. But the idea of an entire new team of characters replacing the current Toa as main characters doesn't sit right with me, especially with the flimsy justification that "the same six Toa will get boring". Are we really going to argue that Tahu has inherently less staying power than Kai, William Furno, Optimus Prime, or Twilight Sparkle? That kind of sentiment definitely doesn't speak very highly of BIONICLE...

[believe victims]

Okay, here's the deal: having a semi-set cast of protagonists is almost required for telling a continuous story. (In a more episodic story where individual parts don't necessarily need to add up to a continuous whole, it's not as necessary.) A story is not just a plot where character roles can be filled by anybody; characters tie it all together.

 

In Lord of the Rings, you can count on a member of the Fellowship to be in pretty much every scene, and (besides Boromir's death), the entire Fellowship is guaranteed to pop up in any one book. They are the main cast of characters. Minor protagonists pop up by their sides, but in the end, it's the story of the Fellowship (and more specifically, of Frodo).

 

In Harry Potter, Harry, Ron, and Hermione are guaranteed to appear in every book, and in fact are almost always together. No matter how many side characters popped up, it was always the story of those three (and, more specifically, Harry.)

 

In Transformers: Prime, Team Prime is always going to pop up in an episode (barring Decepticon-oriented episodes), and in a season (heck, even in a given selection of, say, three episodes) all of Team Prime will appear. Team Prime adds members occasionally (a luxury not currently afforded to Bionicle's business strategy), but otherwise stays fairly stable. They're never exchanged for a completely new cast of Autobots. It's the story of Team Prime. This last example is important, because it's an example of another toy-driven story, where the main protagonists are guaranteed to stay on shelves because they're the product being advertised.

 

Now, Bionicle is, at least for these first three years, telling a continuous story, just like the above three. This means it is to LEGO's benefit from a storytelling perspective to use the same cast of characters throughout; otherwise, it'd be like if halfway through Harry Potter, the series suddenly switched focus to Luna Lovegood, Neville Longbottom, and Parvati Patil (which would have made for a much better main trio, granted, but also would have been needlessly confusing.)

 

(From a business perspective, this also means that, like with Transformers, LEGO needs to keep the Toa on the shelves each year; otherwise, they failed to advertise their product.)

[Zeb]

Hey look, when you search "Bionicle" on Google, they finally changed it from what it said back in 2001:

 

LEGO BIONICLE (2015) is an epic legend set on the mystical island of Okoto where elemental heroes fight for masks of power against a rising evil.

 

Not very different from the previous one, but yeah.

[Xabla]

 

 

I don't entirely get why people seem to think the current Toa will "get stale". There are plenty of franchises that manage to stick with the same main characters year-in and year-out without that becoming an issue. LEGO Ninjago, for example, is on its fifth year with more or less the same main characters as it started out with. As of this summer, each of the five main Ninja will have been released in ten or more different forms!

 

Now, I know Ninjago isn't a constraction theme. But from a storytelling standpoint, that doesn't make any difference at all — it's not as though constraction characters are guaranteed to become boring more quickly than minifigure characters. And as far as sets are concerned, how much difference will it really make to the building experience whether future Toa sets are new characters or new versions of established characters? It's not as though a new character is guaranteed to deliver a revolutionary building experience, or an established character is guaranteed to feel like a rehash of the previous version of the character. What's more, there is no mandate that you have to buy every version of every character.

 

I think it's a bit premature to be talking about this anyway. I think most of us can agree that it would be a bad idea to retire the current team of Toa before they've even gotten two years as the main characters. And that means we will almost certainly be getting new versions of the Toa at some point in 2016. It would be poor business to keep the current Toa as main characters without having any version of those Toa available on store shelves, and it would also be poor business to keep restocking shelves with the same exact 2015 Toa sets over a year and a half after their release.

 

All that really bothers me is this idea some people seem to have that lego... SHOULDN'T ever expand the cast of characters. Like that's a bad idea.

 

I'd be fine with new characters being added, just like how Hero Factory and Ninjago (or for that matter, non-LEGO franchises like Transformers and My Little Pony Friendship is Magic) have added new characters over the years. But the idea of an entire new team of characters replacing the current Toa as main characters doesn't sit right with me, especially with the flimsy justification that "the same six Toa will get boring". Are we really going to argue that Tahu has inherently less staying power than Kai, William Furno, Optimus Prime, or Twilight Sparkle? That kind of sentiment definitely doesn't speak very highly of BIONICLE...

 

Right, but team or not characters need to be added.

[believe victims]

Right, but team or not characters need to be added.

 

 

Unless they skimp on including at least one villain next winter wave, adding a new Toa is out of the question. I also doubt "need"; again, Pinky and the Brain did not need a Larry. Sometimes, adding a character because you feel obligated to add one can have disastrous results, because a tacked on character will feel tacked on.

 

As for adding minor characters, I already mentioned there's a perfect system for that, but apparently all anyone is willing to settle for is complete upheaval of the story's fundamental set of protagonists.

[NickonAquaMagna]

 

Right, but team or not characters need to be added.

 

 

Unless they skimp on including at least one villain next winter wave, adding a new Toa is out of the question. I also doubt "need"; again, Pinky and the Brain did not need a Larry. Sometimes, adding a character because you feel obligated to add one can have disastrous results, because a tacked on character will feel tacked on.

 

As for adding minor characters, I already mentioned there's a perfect system for that, but apparently all anyone is willing to settle for is complete upheaval of the story's fundamental set of protagonists.

 

 

What I'm talking about is taking the time to set up other characters so they can be used to the fullest later on, as Vakama and so on were. I dunno if anyone can "become" a Toa in this world, but I simply don't see how releasing waves of short-lived side characters who don't leave THAT much of an impact can help a story. I mean, I can kind of see where you're coming from, reading your posts above, but I don't see how the Toa Metru and so on detracted anything from the story. If anything, they made it more interesting, because it told us that the world itself was basically the star of Bionicle (technically, it was) and the Toa were just in it. Heck, that's the appeal of Bionicle in general. You're not just being sold a character. You get a whole world along with them.

 

 

I don't entirely get why people seem to think the current Toa will "get stale". There are plenty of franchises that manage to stick with the same main characters year-in and year-out without that becoming an issue. LEGO Ninjago, for example, is on its fifth year with more or less the same main characters as it started out with. As of this summer, each of the five main Ninja will have been released in ten or more different forms!

 

Now, I know Ninjago isn't a constraction theme. But from a storytelling standpoint, that doesn't make any difference at all — it's not as though constraction characters are guaranteed to become boring more quickly than minifigure characters. And as far as sets are concerned, how much difference will it really make to the building experience whether future Toa sets are new characters or new versions of established characters? It's not as though a new character is guaranteed to deliver a revolutionary building experience, or an established character is guaranteed to feel like a rehash of the previous version of the character. What's more, there is no mandate that you have to buy every version of every character.

 

I think it's a bit premature to be talking about this anyway. I think most of us can agree that it would be a bad idea to retire the current team of Toa before they've even gotten two years as the main characters. And that means we will almost certainly be getting new versions of the Toa at some point in 2016. It would be poor business to keep the current Toa as main characters without having any version of those Toa available on store shelves, and it would also be poor business to keep restocking shelves with the same exact 2015 Toa sets over a year and a half after their release.

 

All that really bothers me is this idea some people seem to have that lego... SHOULDN'T ever expand the cast of characters. Like that's a bad idea.

 

I'd be fine with new characters being added, just like how Hero Factory and Ninjago (or for that matter, non-LEGO franchises like Transformers and My Little Pony Friendship is Magic) have added new characters over the years. But the idea of an entire new team of characters replacing the current Toa as main characters doesn't sit right with me, especially with the flimsy justification that "the same six Toa will get boring". Are we really going to argue that Tahu has inherently less staying power than Kai, William Furno, Optimus Prime, or Twilight Sparkle? That kind of sentiment definitely doesn't speak very highly of BIONICLE...

 

 

I guess there's nothing I can say that I haven't already. Maybe it's all cause I'm looking at this from my personal bubble, thinking it'd be hard for me to justify spending money year after year on the same set of characters. But, as you guys have said before, that's what kids are for.

 

I just look at the other Toa teams that were introduced and liked how they showed that Tahu and the others weren't the typical chosen ones of the story, the only people who can do anything right, that they were inhabiting an awesome world populated by other heroes like them. Heck, that was kind of the appeal of Hero Factory, for some people. I know it made Bionicle's story too complicated for some people, but I loved it.

 

Then again... I've just realized this may be partly influenced by adults in my life scoffing at the reveal of the Toa Nuva, just after I'd bought the Toa and Bohrok, saying "Don't you see what they're doing? They're tricking you into buying the same toy over and over again, saying 'ooohhh, they've transformed'!"

 

...huh. Probably influenced me more than I thought.

Edited February 6, 2015 by NickonAquaMagna

[Aanchir]

 

Right, but team or not characters need to be added.

 

Unless they skimp on including at least one villain next winter wave, adding a new Toa is out of the question.

 

I wouldn't count on that. We get however many sets the LEGO Group thinks demand can support. If demand increases, then there's room for more sets. There's no reason to assume the number of sets will remain constant year after year.

 

Granted, if we do get more Toa, they might not be regular single-figure releases. Look at classic BIONICLE — there were several Toa like Takanuva, Lhikan, and Lesovikk who came packed with another character or vehicle.

[Voltex]

I want to see a new version of Takanuva with new colors since they've already used white and gold for Kopaka.

 

Otherwise I don't really care whether we see new Toa (or other G1 characters) being added or not.

[believe victims]

 

 

Right, but team or not characters need to be added.

 

 

Unless they skimp on including at least one villain next winter wave, adding a new Toa is out of the question. I also doubt "need"; again, Pinky and the Brain did not need a Larry. Sometimes, adding a character because you feel obligated to add one can have disastrous results, because a tacked on character will feel tacked on.

 

As for adding minor characters, I already mentioned there's a perfect system for that, but apparently all anyone is willing to settle for is complete upheaval of the story's fundamental set of protagonists.

 

 

What I'm talking about is taking the time to set up other characters so they can be used to the fullest later on, as Vakama and so on were. I dunno if anyone can "become" a Toa in this world, but I simply don't see how releasing waves of short-lived side characters who don't leave THAT much of an impact can help a story, either.

 

 

Really? Even G1 Bionicle did that all the time. How many times did you hear from, say, Piruk after 2006? Outside of the terrible serials, how often did you hear from the Chronicler's Company? The Matoran of Metru Nui not named Ahkmou? What about Defilak?

 

The thing with side characters in this way is that they serve a purpose: they are relevant to that particular arc of the story. Cho Chang didn't get much screentime after her time as Harry's forced love interest fell away. This seems bad, but it's actually good; it allows you to bring new characters to a franchise or story without usurping the role of protagonist or creating unnecessary character bloat. They just float in, play their part, and float out, unless they have a cameo later.

 

Contrast this with introducing an entirely new team of Toa and discarding the old ones, which causes upheaval in the story as it must try to find its focus again, and suddenly try all over again to make you care about characters after possibly only just making the old ones more than just cardboard cutouts. Heck, between appearances, in G1 the Nuva had pretty much no character development. If anything, their 2008 iterations were more generic. Add into that the fact that there had been four years and two Toa Teams between their appearances, the sets looked nothing like the characters, and a good portion of the target audience at the time had never heard of them, and it all came together to make switching Toa teams ever again seem like a terribly slippery slope as far as good story-telling is concerned.

[Jobber]

I would prefer if Lego made two different sets of Toa teams per year, rather than them gimping out and keep adding new characters to the already existing roster--I'll remind me of HF too much. (shivers) 

[NickonAquaMagna]

 

 

 

Right, but team or not characters need to be added.

 

 

Unless they skimp on including at least one villain next winter wave, adding a new Toa is out of the question. I also doubt "need"; again, Pinky and the Brain did not need a Larry. Sometimes, adding a character because you feel obligated to add one can have disastrous results, because a tacked on character will feel tacked on.

 

As for adding minor characters, I already mentioned there's a perfect system for that, but apparently all anyone is willing to settle for is complete upheaval of the story's fundamental set of protagonists.

 

 

What I'm talking about is taking the time to set up other characters so they can be used to the fullest later on, as Vakama and so on were. I dunno if anyone can "become" a Toa in this world, but I simply don't see how releasing waves of short-lived side characters who don't leave THAT much of an impact can help a story, either.

 

 

Really? Even G1 Bionicle did that all the time. How many times did you hear from, say, Piruk after 2006? Outside of the terrible serials, how often did you hear from the Chronicler's Company? The Matoran of Metru Nui not named Ahkmou? What about Defilak?

 

The thing with side characters in this way is that they serve a purpose: they are relevant to that particular arc of the story. Cho Chang didn't get much screentime after her time as Harry's forced love interest fell away. This seems bad, but it's actually good; it allows you to bring new characters to a franchise or story without usurping the role of protagonist or creating unnecessary character bloat. They just float in, play their part, and float out, unless they have a cameo later.

 

Contrast this with introducing an entirely new team of Toa and discarding the old ones, which causes upheaval in the story as it must try to find its focus again, and suddenly try all over again to make you care about characters after possibly only just making the old ones more than just cardboard cutouts. Heck, between appearances, in G1 the Nuva had pretty much no character development. If anything, their 2008 iterations were more generic. Add into that the fact that there had been four years and two Toa Teams between their appearances, the sets looked nothing like the characters, and a good portion of the target audience at the time had never heard of them, and it all came together to make switching Toa teams ever again seem like a terribly slippery slope as far as good story-telling is concerned.

 

 

Again, I'm just using examples like the Toa Metru and Inika being easier to swallow because they were important characters we'd gotten to know well beforehand, and even then, the Toa Nuva were still busy doing things in other parts of the world during 2006-7, so it's not like they completely dropped off the map and were expected to be completely forgotten about until it was time to buy them again. Heck, Metru Nui was only supposed to go on for one year (before it was extended another year). It was essentially a glorified flashback, but it was valuable in that it gave us a lot of insight into the world that we simply wouldn't have gotten from characters like the Toa Nuva, who weren't there to see these events occur, and simply having them there for that wouldn't have made it a better part of the story, I don't think. They even introduced elements that would be further explored in later years.

 

I'm not saying they HAVE to take this approach to story telling. Yes, sticking to one cast like in harry Potter can work great, but in a case like that, it's partly because we're meant to view these characters advancing through school, growing up as the world around them gets darker every year that they return. The very nature of going to a school is an ongoing serial that way. But not every story has a narrative like that. And in the case of something like Transformers Prime, well... that show only went on for a few years. If we'd gotten updated incarnations of Tahu and the others every year for 10-20 years straight, they would've gotten stale sooner or later. Hasbro is smart enough to avoid that by running any take on it for a few years at most (the movies are an exception). Heck, Transformers in general is a bad example because of the constant reboots. We're not getting the SAME Optimus Prime, the same Megatron or Starscream or so on over and over.

 

Heck, consider characters like Superman, Batman, Spider Man and so on. How many times have we seen new takes on them over the years? How many tv shows have eventually stopped being funny or gripping because they went on for so long that the writers eventually ran out of interesting things to do with the characters? And then they try to mix things up in various gimmicky ways that just drag it further through the muck. Personally, I think the way Lego went about it was much better handled. I mean, come on. 3 measly Toa teams, full of characters who've had strong connections with each other, and us, for a long time already.

 

Anyway, bottom line, I just don't appreciate the sentiment that showing a world from multiple perspectives absolutely CANNOT work and shouldn't be attempted because it's bad writing or whatever. I think any story can work if it's handled well and fits the world that's being set up. Some worlds work best seen from one cast, or even one character's point of view. Sometimes, though, it's nice to see things from the other side of the pond, since any one character can't be in all places all the time to witness everything transpiring. Ultimately, whatever approach lego takes depends on what sort of world they're setting up, and how much of the story can revolve around the Toa.

Edited February 6, 2015 by NickonAquaMagna

[believe victims]

You speak these things as though Bionicle G1 was an example of good storytelling, when it wasn't, especially for a toy-driven story. The fractured cast was one of many things that lead to the character bloat and information bloat that bogged the story down to its eventual cancellation.

 

I just don't think multiple Toa teams, throwing each one in the garbage can when it becomes "stale" (which is more often the result of flat characters than any innate property of using the same characters throughout a narrative) is a good way to tell a story. I think the best stories follow the path of a reasonably-sized cast of protagonists so that they actually have time to develop as characters.

 

It's not just limited to my examples, either. My Little Pony? Primary cast of characters. The Hunger Games? Sticks with the protagonist the whole time through. Alice in Wonderland, Wizard of Oz, Shrek, Pokemon, Firefly, Scrubs, Psych, ATLA, ALOK, etc., etc. Main casts may fluctuate in size or members, but they are never permanently replaced (or even semi-permanently, before someone pulls out 2008). Even large worlds, like Lord of the Rings, can balance the needs of the world with the needs of the characters' narratives. A story is not just a world; it is also its main characters. A story that ignore main characters for large periods of time does them a disservice; it is not just the world's journey, but theirs.

 

This is why I don't think a story can be told while switching main characters repeatedly, or at the very least it's very, very difficult. It betrays an inattention to characters when your world is too big to keep them relevant in it.

 

(Plus we have yet to see any indication that we are ever, ever leaving Okoto for any reason in the next three years and Okoto is hardly a big enough setting to warrant more than one Toa team so honestly I don't see the need here. The days of impossibly large settings with impossibly large casts is behind us; we have a simpler Bionicle ahead.)

 

(Also do you seriously think any iteration of Bionicle could go on for 20-30 years? I guarantee you, if Bionicle is still around in 20-30 years, it'll have quite a few reboots of its own under its belt.)

Edited February 6, 2015 by Wally

[NickonAquaMagna]

You speak these things as though Bionicle G1 was an example of good storytelling, when it wasn't, especially for a toy-driven story. The fractured cast was one of many things that lead to the character bloat and information bloat that bogged the story down to its eventual cancellation.

 

I just don't think multiple Toa teams, throwing each one in the garbage can when it becomes "stale" (which is more often the result of flat characters than any innate property of using the same characters throughout a narrative) is a good way to tell a story. I think the best stories follow the path of a reasonably-sized cast of protagonists so that they actually have time to develop as characters.

 

It's not just limited to my examples, either. My Little Pony? Primary cast of characters. The Hunger Games? Sticks with the protagonist the whole time through. Alice in Wonderland, Wizard of Oz, Shrek, Pokemon, Firefly, Scrubs, Psych, ATLA, ALOK, etc., etc. Main casts may fluctuate in size or members, but they are never permanently replaced (or even semi-permanently, before someone pulls out 2008). Even large worlds, like Lord of the Rings, can balance the needs of the world with the needs of the characters' narratives. A story is not just a world; it is also its main characters. A story that ignore main characters for large periods of time does them a disservice; it is not just the world's journey, but theirs.

 

This is why I don't think a story can be told while switching main characters repeatedly, or at the very least it's very, very difficult. It betrays an inattention to characters when your world is too big to keep them relevant in it.

 

(Also do you seriously think any iteration of Bionicle could go on for 20-30 years? I guarantee you, if Bionicle is still around in 20-30 years, it'll have quite a few reboots of its own under its belt.)

 

Really? Huh... I always enjoyed the story back in the day, even the serials, for the most part. I guess I just have bad taste or something's wrong with me for liking it. I dunno. I do think you're being a tad harsh about it. At least the first 4 years were golden, and 2006 was one of the most fun years of all.

 

Anyway, again, most of those examples you've given (not all, but most) are fairly short stories that end after a few years or a set story arc, and 3 years of storytelling is PLENTY of time for characters to completely develop. That's why most stories these days tend to end in that time frame, or in a trilogy. They don't go on and on like Bionicle did. We'll come back to this in a moment, though...

 

One more example I want to give is the Metal Gear series. Now, just how good the storytelling is varies from game to game. Some installments fall kinda flat or end up all over the place. For the most part, though, I like its approach to the main characters. We've got Solid Snake, Naked Snake, and Raiden. In the case I'm making, these guys are analogous of the 3 main Toa teams. heck, Naked Snake is basically the Vakama of that series, as we see what the Metal Gear world was like long before most of the other games take place. We don't follow the same character in every game. We alternate between them a few times from game to game, and for the most part, it works because they all have valuable stories that are worth being told. Every character gets their due, and they're changed up just frequently enough that we never have to go too long or too many games without seeing how one of these characters is doing in some form or other. If new Toa teams are introduced in the future, this is basically how I would like to see them handled. Enough alternation to keep things surprising, as long as they don't lose sight of other important things.

 

Yes, it DID suck to go so long without seeing our old heroes. When 2006 rolled around, I was so excited to imagine Tahu and the others finally coming back after their extended vacation... but before the books were released, there was a point where it seemed like we would never see them again, after waiting 2 years for Vakama's story to end. I CRIED. And I cheered when we DID get to see them for a while as they went to Voya Nui. I understand how losing focus is a problem.

 

Anyway, if Bionicle only goes on in its current form for 3 years, then fine, these Toa are enough. If it ends up going on for nearly as long as it did originally... yeah, after the 10th time, having to make enough room for yet another Tahu or Kopaka on the shelf is kind of gonna lose its luster.

[Akavakaku]

Keeping the same team of characters makes a good story, but unless they're written to be frequently rebuilt, as Heroes were, a terrible action figure line. A lot of people collected every Toa this year, and I can see why, but would they do it next year? The year after? How many Tahus, Onuas and Lewas is too many? Exo-Force and Ninjago don't really count, since the minifigures could stay the same while the big fancy parts of the set could change. Besides, they'd have to come up with a new story gimmick every year to explain the changes, just like Hero Factory did, and who has ever praised HF for its story?

Edited February 6, 2015 by Akavakaku

[Nescent]

I don't think this has been posted yet:

 

Bionicle Episode 5 in English.

[NickonAquaMagna]

Keeping the same team of characters makes a good story, but unless they're written to be frequently rebuilt, as Heroes were, a terrible action figure line. A lot of people collected every Toa this year, and I can see why, but would they do it next year? The year after? How many Tahus, Onuas and Lewas is too many? Exo-Force and Ninjago don't really count, since the minifigures could stay the same while the big fancy parts of the set could change. Besides, they'd have to come up with a new story gimmick every year to explain the changes, just like Hero Factory did, and who has ever praised HF for its story?

 

Not to mention, it would promote extremely repetitive storytelling.

 

"A new threat has appeared! Quick, let's get some upgrades so we're strong enough to combat it!"

 

"Oh no, an even worse threat than last year's has appeared! Good thing we came prepared!"

 

"Oh look, MORE bad guys! Better upgrade our armor, again."

 

"Wow, these are the strongest baddies yet! You know what that means... time for more upgrades!"

 

"....Yeah, let's just do it preemptively this time, since you know how it's gonna go down again."

 

"You know what, let's just go all out and mod ourselves as much as our bodies can take."

 

 

 

THAT'S how ridiculous and... Hero Factory-like I can see this getting if they carry on with that trend for more than a few years.

 

In fact, if this does last beyond the first three years, which will understandably focus on Tahu and his group, I can't see them NOT introducing a new team with new stories of their own at some point. Again, depends on how long this lasts and how much of the world they want to open up.

Edited February 6, 2015 by NickonAquaMagna

[believe victims]

 

One more example I want to give is the Metal Gear series. Now, just how good the storytelling is varies from game to game. Some installments fall kinda flat or end up all over the place. For the most part, though, I like its approach to the main characters. We've got Solid Snake, Naked Snake, and Raiden. In the case I'm making, these guys are analogous of the 3 main Toa teams. heck, Naked Snake is basically the Vakama of that series, as we see what the Metal Gear world was like long before most of the other games take place. We don't follow the same character in every game. We alternate between them a few times from game to game, and for the most part, it works because they all have valuable stories that are worth being told. Every character gets their due, and they're changed up just frequently enough that we never have to go too long or too many games without seeing how one of these characters is doing in some form or other. If new Toa teams are introduced in the future, this is basically how I would like to see them handled. Enough alternation to keep things surprising, as long as they don't lose sight of other important things.

 

The Metal Gear series is a video game series. Video game storytelling is much more about the individual parts than the story they add up to, partially because each game is almost always going to have to act as both the first game of the series some people are playing and the last game that might ever be produced.

 

Bionicle was never like that. The original Bionicle was a continuous story with one main goal (even if it was split up into smaller goals). It, therefore, has much more to lose by upsetting its storytelling methods part of the way through. If the new Bionicle also tells a continuous story, it will also have a lot to lose by throwing the current team in the trash for a ~*~shiny new team~*~

 

I also fail to see how it's bad storytelling for protagonists to prepare themselves for a new threat, nor how it's necessarily a "gimmick". They don't even have to be called "upgrades", because I do agree that after a while "upgrading" has a limit. But specializing your tools and weapons for a specific threat isn't really an "upgrade" as much as it is "actually preparing instead of charging in unprepared like a buffoon".

 

I see absolutely no need to interrupt narrative flow just because you think the characters will get "boring". If the new Bionicle sticks with Okoto for a setting, I see even less need.

 

(Also need I point out just how many Optimus Prime toys [and yes, I mean even just focusing on a single iteration] Hasbro has churned out, and they're still very much in the action figure business.)

[Bfahome]

Personally, I would like to see a new team at some point down the road.  Maybe after the three-year arc that's currently planned, if BIONICLE continues after that.

 

I would also like to see a Toa->Turaga kind of transformation for the current Toa.  Maybe not Turaga in name and role, but maybe some kind of spirit or energy beings that help guide the new team.  That way there can be a shake-up of the main protagonists while still keeping the previous characters.

 

Keep in mind that would be one new team, and only after the current arc is over.  Not three years of this team then two of this team then two of this other team and then a year of the first team again and then whoops new planet bye everyone.  It would be a sort of passing of the torch once the initial team's destiny is fulfilled.

[Voltex]

Personally, I would like to see a new team at some point down the road.  Maybe after the three-year arc that's currently planned, if BIONICLE continues after that.

 

I would also like to see a Toa->Turaga kind of transformation for the current Toa.  Maybe not Turaga in name and role, but maybe some kind of spirit or energy beings that help guide the new team.  That way there can be a shake-up of the main protagonists while still keeping the previous characters.

 

Keep in mind that would be one new team, and only after the current arc is over.  Not three years of this team then two of this team then two of this other team and then a year of the first team again and then whoops new planet bye everyone.  It would be a sort of passing of the torch once the initial team's destiny is fulfilled.

 

I would definitely prefer this sort of approach. Keep the current Toa team around in a sort of mentor capacity for the new team for at least a year.

[NickonAquaMagna]

 

 

One more example I want to give is the Metal Gear series. Now, just how good the storytelling is varies from game to game. Some installments fall kinda flat or end up all over the place. For the most part, though, I like its approach to the main characters. We've got Solid Snake, Naked Snake, and Raiden. In the case I'm making, these guys are analogous of the 3 main Toa teams. heck, Naked Snake is basically the Vakama of that series, as we see what the Metal Gear world was like long before most of the other games take place. We don't follow the same character in every game. We alternate between them a few times from game to game, and for the most part, it works because they all have valuable stories that are worth being told. Every character gets their due, and they're changed up just frequently enough that we never have to go too long or too many games without seeing how one of these characters is doing in some form or other. If new Toa teams are introduced in the future, this is basically how I would like to see them handled. Enough alternation to keep things surprising, as long as they don't lose sight of other important things.

 

The Metal Gear series is a video game series. Video game storytelling is much more about the individual parts than the story they add up to, partially because each game is almost always going to have to act as both the first game of the series some people are playing and the last game that might ever be produced.

 

Bionicle was never like that. The original Bionicle was a continuous story with one main goal (even if it was split up into smaller goals). It, therefore, has much more to lose by upsetting its storytelling methods part of the way through. If the new Bionicle also tells a continuous story, it will also have a lot to lose by throwing the current team in the trash for a ~*~shiny new team~*~

 

I also fail to see how it's bad storytelling for protagonists to prepare themselves for a new threat, nor how it's necessarily a "gimmick". They don't even have to be called "upgrades", because I do agree that after a while "upgrading" has a limit. But specializing your tools and weapons for a specific threat isn't really an "upgrade" as much as it is "actually preparing instead of charging in unprepared like a buffoon".

 

I see absolutely no need to interrupt narrative flow just because you think the characters will get "boring". If the new Bionicle sticks with Okoto for a setting, I see even less need.

 

(Also need I point out just how many Optimus Prime toys [and yes, I mean even just focusing on a single iteration] Hasbro has churned out, and they're still very much in the action figure business.)

 

 

I just think that there comes a certain point where you've done everything you really can with a character, like they've reached the end of their character arc and don't have any development to go through left. Like they've moved on from a loss, or gotten over their hangups. What else is there for them to do, then?

 

But you know what? Whatever, I give up. You and I just have very different ideas of effective storytelling when it comes to a toy line. I shouldn't take it personally, but I keep thinking back to Nova Orbis and can't help wondering what you must think of that, considering some of the curveballs I've thrown that, surely, you must consider sloppy writing.

[believe victims]

I've never bothered to read it, so I can't tell you. If nothing else, at least use that to take it to heart that this isn't personal.

[Ballom Nom Nom]

I would prefer if Lego made two different sets of Toa teams per year, rather than them gimping out and keep adding new characters to the already existing roster--I'll remind me of HF too much. (shivers)

So rather than Lego add new characters, you'd prefer new Toa teams per wave ... which would be more characters as well.

 

 

~B~

[Jobber]

 

I would prefer if Lego made two different sets of Toa teams per year, rather than them gimping out and keep adding new characters to the already existing roster--I'll remind me of HF too much. (shivers)

So rather than Lego add new characters, you'd prefer new Toa teams per wave ... which would be more characters as well.

 

 

~B~

 

Yes?

[Quisoves Potoo]

I just think that there comes a certain point where you've done everything you really can with a character, like they've reached the end of their character arc and don't have any development to go through left. Like they've moved on from a loss, or gotten over their hangups. What else is there for them to do, then?

While I do agree that it isn't inherently bad storytelling for something like BIONICLE to switch heroes, I really don't see how you can "use up" a character. It's one thing if the writer reaches his limit in regards to the character, having lost interest or inspiration or what you might. But the character itself can be perpetually expanded upon, surely? It's not as if a human has done everything he really can by the time he dies of old age. There are always opportunities for more development.

 

For my own part, I think BIONICLE's story, episodic as it is, makes it rather easy to switch heroes, should the writers so desire. Provided that the previous year didn't end on a cliffhanger, its heroes have a natural ending. They've defeated the latest menace to the island, and there's no reason that they should be suited to fighting next antagonists. Perhaps they simply have to stay where they are while another team sallies forth to nip the latest problem in the bud. Etc.

 

This isn't to say that switching heroes is necessary, story-wise (I'd be much more worried about set-design, but keeping the same heroes could even work in that regard, theoretically.) I'd be the last to suggest that. But I think it is unnecessarily limiting to preclude the possibility of different main characters. The fact that you don't like how the original BIONICLE did it doesn't mean that the new BIONICLE can't do it well.

[Ballom Nom Nom]

 

 

I would prefer if Lego made two different sets of Toa teams per year, rather than them gimping out and keep adding new characters to the already existing roster--I'll remind me of HF too much. (shivers)

So rather than Lego add new characters, you'd prefer new Toa teams per wave ... which would be more characters as well.

 

 

~B~

Yes?

I didn't think that required further explanation. It's blatantly obvious that new characters are added either way, even though that's what you're complaining about in the first place.

 

~B~

[Jobber]

 

 

 

I would prefer if Lego made two different sets of Toa teams per year, rather than them gimping out and keep adding new characters to the already existing roster--I'll remind me of HF too much. (shivers)

So rather than Lego add new characters, you'd prefer new Toa teams per wave ... which would be more characters as well.

 

 

~B~

Yes?

I didn't think that required further explanation. It's blatantly obvious that new characters are added either way, even though that's what you're complaining about in the first place.

 

~B~

 

Alright.

[Dorek]

So the digital BIONICLE insert from the magazine STILL hasn't been fixed online and people should email LEGO about it because I already have and I want that file.

[Prowl Nightwolf]

I also fail to see how it's bad storytelling for protagonists to prepare themselves for a new threat, nor how it's necessarily a "gimmick". They don't even have to be called "upgrades", because I do agree that after a while "upgrading" has a limit. But specializing your tools and weapons for a specific threat isn't really an "upgrade" as much as it is "actually preparing instead of charging in unprepared like a buffoon".

Oh you mean like how the Toa did when they first thought to go 1 on 1 with the LoSS? lol.

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

A little late on the subject of switching teams, but having reread the whole Bionicle story not too long ago, I have to say the story team did a pretty decent job of juggling the main focus. The only time it really threw me off was in 2009 because we knew nobody except for Mata Nui. Honestly, I really liked the cast changes - it created pretty cool dynamics. The Toa Metru/Hordika arc really worked because it was told as a series of flashbacks that really gave depth to the history of that universe and seriously, the events that followed those years were enhanced greatly by exploring a different world through new yet previously introduced characters. As for 2006's cast change, it might have seemed a bit abrupt in the comics and online animations but I think it was done with a lot of care in the books. The Toa Nuva aren't exactly "ignored" and the I honestly don't see why people think the Inika's personalities were "completely different" other than Kongu (which was at least explained in 2007). Honestly, other than Jaller, these characters weren't exactly fleshed out in the past and I think the Inika/Mahri arc did a lot to make them more interesting.

 

Yes, the side-characters disappear after their respective years but that's to be expected. Having to include every set released in a year into the story is a big burden and I am more impressed that they were able to do so in a way that was not exactly intrusive to the main plot.

 

Moreover, I think as a story designed to sell toys it was pretty well-developed and consistent. When looking at Bionicle's story, you really have to take into consideration the business model of LEGO at the time as well the design and number of sets. G1 Bionicle did a good job, all things considered. 

 

-NotS

[bioniclepluslotr]

 

I would prefer if Lego made two different sets of Toa teams per year, rather than them gimping out and keep adding new characters to the already existing roster--I'll remind me of HF too much. (shivers)

So rather than Lego add new characters, you'd prefer new Toa teams per wave ... which would be more characters as well.

 

 

~B~

 

I think he meant taking one or two out and replacing them.