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Did Teridax Think He Was Doing The Right Thing?


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#1 Offline toa kopaka4372

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Posted Jan 03 2012 - 08:54 PM

I've wondered if Teridax ever felt his actions were justified, or if they were actually "ok", and not evil. I don't think we've ever gotten a clear answer in the story. Did Teridax, like Tuyet, think, in his own twisted, bizarre mind, that all his actions were not evil? For example, did he know what he was doing was clearly immoral, or did he think he was actually doing everyone a favor. Teridax never regretted his actions; there's not a single part of the story in which we see him feel remorse. At one point in Time Trap, Teridax seems surprised when Vakama calls him a monster. He replied something along the lines of "Me, a monster? For giving my brother a rest?" or something like that. Of course, he could've been being sarcastic, but I thought it was an interesting topic. For example, when Teridax caused the Archives Massacre, he didn't see it as evil; he saw it as a deonstration to show how Makuta can impose order.
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#2 Offline Nuparu1995

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Posted Jan 03 2012 - 08:58 PM

I imagine so. So do just about every other person doing a bad thing. They find the means to justify it.
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#3 Offline Paleo

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Posted Jan 03 2012 - 09:06 PM

It's a possibility. However, Teridax most likely did it for personal gain. A quote from BS01

Teridax was influenced by the Barraki's idea to overthrow Mata Nui, and soon began to contemplate usurping the Great Spirit himself. When the Matoran Civil War broke out on Metru Nui, Teridax was ordered to stop the fighting. Seeing the war as an opportunity to show how the Makuta can impose order, he ended the war by locking the opposing armies in the Archives and unleashing the exhibits on them.


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#4 Offline Zarohum

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Posted Jan 03 2012 - 09:10 PM

No, I really don't think so. He knew he was doing things his way, and he knew it wasn't what everyoen wanted.
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#5 Offline T.B.O.C

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Posted Jan 03 2012 - 09:17 PM

I think to a certain extent, he may have. Many of his actions though were indeed for personal gain. I believe much of the reason for his take-over was to be the Great Spirit, to have everyone revere him, rather than Mata-Nui.
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#6 Offline Toa Smoke Monster

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Posted Jan 03 2012 - 09:32 PM

"No one sees themselves as the bad guy in their own story."I'm not sure who came up with this quote, but I think it rings true here. Teridax did a lot of bad things, but he never stated that he was doing them for evil reasons. (At least, I don't remember anywhere in the story where he said it.) Teridax probably knew that his actions were selfish, but he most likely didn't see them as 'evil.'
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#7 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jan 03 2012 - 09:43 PM

I think to a certain extent, he may have. Many of his actions though were indeed for personal gain. I believe much of the reason for his take-over was to be the Great Spirit, to have everyone revere him, rather than Mata-Nui.

Yes, the poor guy was probably just jealous. But I don't think he was exactly the most benevolent guy in the universe, and he knew that his destiny was to take over the MU robot. He was a shameless opportunist.He did end up fufilling the GB's purposes, however, by sending the Mask out into space where it would land on SM and allow Mata Nui to power up the Prototype robot. But his plans to use the MN robot as a world-destroying menace was an act of pure spite and mockery of the robot's original purpose. And I think that was merely for his own personal amusement.

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#8 Offline Takatu

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Posted Jan 03 2012 - 10:12 PM

Well, just because it was for personal gain doesn't mean he didn't see it as okay. I think in the later stages of his plan, he stopped trying to justify it and did whatever he wanted, but early on, his methods, while still selfish, seemed to stem from the fact that he didn't think he and his fellow Makuta were getting the respect they deserved. They were the ones who created all those Rahi that assisted the Matoran's lives, they were the Matoran's large-scale guardians at one point. Again, he was probably still looking more after himself than the Brotherhood as a whole, but initially I don't think his train of thought was purely "I want this because I want it."It's an interesting question, though. In the end, I think he may have thought his goals weren't wrong, but he at least was aware his methods were more than a little questionable and just didn't care.
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#9 Offline Eeko

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Posted Jan 03 2012 - 10:56 PM

I believe that he thought he could make a better Mata Nui than The Mata Nui. Since Mata Nui ignored his internal workings, Makuta thought if he paid attention to the Matoran, he could run it better, (and be the receiver of the Matoran's worship).That's just my theory though. :P
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#10 Offline ManiacToaLaco

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Posted Jan 04 2012 - 12:46 AM

Perhaps he thought he was doing the right thing for himself? I don't really know, but think of ants; they're feeding themselves and their colony by taking your food of the picnic table, but you don't like it. So what do you do? Squish 'em.I'm not sure where the analogy is in there, but it's nearby..MTL
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#11 Offline Taipu1

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Posted Jan 04 2012 - 12:51 PM

Most villains delude themselves that they are working for 'The Greater Good', but Teridax's plan seemed to be inspired by the actions of the League of Six Kingdoms, and he obviously didn't think what they were doing as for good. At the end of the day, I think it was all just the standard arrogance and selfishness that all Makuta are blessed with.

Perhaps he thought he was doing the right thing for himself? I don't really know, but think of ants; they're feeding themselves and their colony by taking your food of the picnic table, but you don't like it. So what do you do? Squish 'em.I'm not sure where the analogy is in there, but it's nearby..MTL

Amusingly, I would take the ants in your analogy to be a 40,000,000 foot tall robot. It's minding its business, it has a job to do. Makuta doesn't like this though.

Edited by Taipu1, Jan 04 2012 - 12:54 PM.

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#12 Offline JDJackson

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Posted Jan 04 2012 - 02:09 PM

Makuta was pretty evil. Just saying. Even if he were doing the right thing, he had a funny way of doing it.Then again, what do I know? Haven't read any of the recent stuff. If there is any since it's only been a couple years since Bionicle died.
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#13 Offline Toa of Nerds

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Posted Jan 04 2012 - 06:13 PM

Nobody thinks that what they're doing is evil. In his heart, Teridax thought that what he was doing was good. He thought that he would be a better leader of the matoran than Mata-Nui. Jealousy was also a part of it. He thought that it was unfair that Mata-Nui got all the credit for many things that he did, and wanted a piece of the pie, so to speak. But did he think he was evil? No. Nobody thinks that they are evil. Even unquestionably evil men such as Adolf Hitler and Osama Bin Laden thought that they were doing good.-don't touch my pocket protector
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#14 Offline Takatu

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Posted Jan 04 2012 - 09:25 PM

For the most part, I agree, but at least in fiction, I've come across some characters that are clearly aware that what they're doing is not good, and just don't care. One example is the player character, of all people, in Saints Row 2 (more this game than the first and third). It's very obvious that their mentality is something along of the lines of, "I want power, I have the ability to take it, and I will take it." And there's really not much more to it than that.In Makuta's case, I think he may have had shades of this toward the end of the story, especially after he took control of Mata Nui's body, but like I said before, it stemmed from jealousy so I think on some level he thought at least his end goals were for the best, if not his methods of getting there.
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#15 Offline KlakWest

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Posted Jan 04 2012 - 11:26 PM

A lot of people on here are throwing around some good ideas. But here's my two cents:Teridax's plan for universal domination seems to have stemmed from jealousy (which itself is rather evil, but I won't get into that to avoid a semantical conversation). Although he most likely had some sort of delusion of himself working for the greater good, he most likely devolved into the raving, heartless psychopath we know him to be someway down the line.I guess, in this particular aspect, he could be compared to Vader. Both originally thought that they had to achieve a greater good by falling to darkness. However, they ultimately were transformed into twisted and evil beings who craved power, and would stop at nothing to achieve it.Also, both Teridax and Vader fulfilled their destinies through their actions. I believe it was confirmed that Teridax lost sight of his ultimate goal: to help his "brother" Mata Nui repair Spherus Magna.
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#16 Offline Axilus Prime

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Posted Jan 05 2012 - 12:48 AM

He knew no one wanted his will, but he believed it was right anyway.
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#17 Offline Raph

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Posted Jan 05 2012 - 03:55 AM

Teridax thinked and belived that his actions is good. In some point they are. But in some not. Example: He felt that Matoran did not respect Brotherhood and gave all the credits to Mata Nui. That "hurted" him. But when he decided to put Mata Nui on sleep.....put all the universe in jeopardy.
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#18 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted Jan 05 2012 - 02:38 PM

No. I think he knows that Makuta are considered "bad guys" because he calls the Toa "heroes", as if he considers them the good guys.Also, I think he likes being evil. XD
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#19 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jan 05 2012 - 03:28 PM

The vibe I get from him is that he believes it's good to look out for your own interests at the expense of others.There are people in real life and throughout fiction with that philosophy and they seem to be able to confidently work against anyone who gets in their way with no feeling of remorse, and yet also have an intense passion for what they want (often a murderous passion).They don't seem to ever feel like they're doing the wrong thing and yet enjoying it too much to stop, or worry about the greater good. Teridax seems to fit that patttern perfectly.It's also kinda codified into Brotherhood law, isn't it? Or something like that; I forget exactly.
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#20 Offline The Dandy Automaton

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Posted Jan 05 2012 - 04:14 PM

I don't believe anyone sees themselves as evil, unless it's in a form of children's media, in which case everything has to have black and white morality....Okay, Bionicle may be aimed at children, but it does have some more adult themes.But back on subject, I'd have to say that Teridax would never have seen his actions as evil, just fun. He was always fairly sadistic, so he probably just saw what he did as acceptable, until he became his own God in which case his ego probably got so large he decided he was above morals. After all, who could punish him for his actions?
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#21 Offline Baron Von Nebula

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Posted Jan 05 2012 - 04:16 PM

Teridax would have thought he was doing the right thing, but he would not believe in good or evil. According to his view, he is a superior being who deserves to rule the universe. "There is no good or evil, only power and those too weak to take it", to paraphrase a Voldemort quote.
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#22 Offline KlakWest

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Posted Jan 05 2012 - 07:02 PM

Teridax would have thought he was doing the right thing, but he would not believe in good or evil. According to his view, he is a superior being who deserves to rule the universe. "There is no good or evil, only power and those too weak to take it", to paraphrase a Voldemort quote.

Besides my theory, I think this is also plausible. Of course, he was proved wrong.

I don't believe anyone sees themselves as evil, unless it's in a form of children's media, in which case everything has to have black and white morality....Okay, Bionicle may be aimed at children, but it does have some more adult themes.But back on subject, I'd have to say that Teridax would never have seen his actions as evil, just fun. He was always fairly sadistic, so he probably just saw what he did as acceptable, until he became his own God in which case his ego probably got so large he decided he was above morals. After all, who could punish him for his actions?

I'm pretty sure Vezon KNOWS he is evil.

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#23 Offline The Dandy Automaton

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Posted Jan 06 2012 - 02:20 PM

I'm pretty sure Vezon KNOWS he is evil.

Hm, I'm gonna have to disagree with that. Mainly because I strongly don't believe in the words good and evil.Vezon is insane, so he'd think anything. I wouldn't be surprised if at one point he thought he was a fruit bat. Vezon's not evil, he's just a tad selfish and has a few violence issues.

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#24 Offline Taipu1

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Posted Jan 06 2012 - 03:14 PM

I'm pretty sure Vezon KNOWS he is evil.

Hm, I'm gonna have to disagree with that. Mainly because I strongly don't believe in the words good and evil.Vezon is insane, so he'd think anything. I wouldn't be surprised if at one point he thought he was a fruit bat. Vezon's not evil, he's just a tad selfish and has a few violence issues.

I think with Vezon not even that is fully true, he's so insane that his personality changes depending on nothing in particular. He doesn't always seem violent prone. It is one of his more recurring personality traits, but he's only talking, I don't remember him ever physically being violent. The only opportunity he almost had was that trader in Federation of Fear. Of course this depends how you define violence, he did plenty of fighting when he guarded the Mask of Life, but that was with the power of the mask, not full contact fighting.

Edited by Taipu1, Jan 06 2012 - 03:15 PM.

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#25 Offline KlakWest

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Posted Jan 06 2012 - 03:26 PM

I'm pretty sure Vezon KNOWS he is evil.

Hm, I'm gonna have to disagree with that. Mainly because I strongly don't believe in the words good and evil.Vezon is insane, so he'd think anything. I wouldn't be surprised if at one point he thought he was a fruit bat. Vezon's not evil, he's just a tad selfish and has a few violence issues.

See, this is the only problem with this topic. The whole good/evil thing crosses into semantics. I obviously disagree with you because I believe in both good and evil. I would not want to debate that because, as I have said, it would cross into semantics, something which is not allowed in BZPower.I guess you're both right, though. Vezon was only insane, and very prone to evil actions (with the Mask, its possible that he had some evil intentions).One thing I think that should be brought up is that Makuta Teridax gave himself to the shadows. He more or less knew what he was doing, or had to at some point. Somewhere down the line, Teridax had to have completely disregarded all codes of morality that he had, and exchanged them for his own, twisted ethic of "kill or manipulate all who get in my way".

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#26 Offline Yaldabaoth

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Posted Jan 08 2012 - 06:34 PM

Actually, Vezon seemed to me much less evil when he had the Ignika. He was constantly talking to Fenrakk of his regrets, and sayings things like "Stupid, stupid me... if I had known then what I know now... perhaps no one would have to die today." He seemed almost sympathetic.Then, of course, by the time the Inika knocked down the door, he had accepted his fate as the Mask's guardian and fought them outright. But that was only for a brief spit of time that he seemed actively malevolent. All of his other appearances have featured him being more lighthearted by far. I'd say he's far from evil -- he's just so detached from common laws of logic and morality that he floats outside the alignment spectrum.But we digress entirely from the point of the topic. It's not "Did Vezon Think He Was Doing the Right Thing," it's Teridax, or the Makuta, as the more nostalgic of us prefer to call him. I would have to agree that the Makuta was similar to Voldemort and many other villains; he discarded the concepts of Good and Evil in favor of Inferior and Superior, and saw himself as the latter.

Edited by Angel Bob, Jan 08 2012 - 06:36 PM.

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#27 Offline ZippyWharrgarbl

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Posted Jan 09 2012 - 01:33 AM

I remember reading BS01 a while back, and they described Teridax as 'sociopathic'. I think the description fits him rather well; he did not seem to feel empathy towards those around him, he was very manipulative, he had no qualms about lying or using others to his own benefit, he felt no guilt or remorse, along with many other signs of a sociopath. (Also there is Incapability for Love but everyone in that universe has it so whatever).He may not have even seen other beings as people, but as thins that are to be used fo his own benefit. As we see a pencil as something to be used for writing, he would see a living, breathing person as something to serve a purpose. When they have outlived that purpose, he would see no problems in getting rid of them.With these thoughts in mind, he probably thought that what he was doing was right. Sociopaths often feel entitled to things as 'Their Right', and so he would have seen no wrong in doing what he did so he could claim his 'rightful place' as King of Everything. So, I do not believe he thought what he did was wrong.Also, with Vezon, I don't think the guy's evil. He's crazy. He's more of an anti-hero, if anything. He occasionally does good things, he occasionally does bad things. It's questionable whether he can tell the difference between them.

Edited by ZippyWharrgarbl, Jan 09 2012 - 01:38 AM.

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#28 Offline Duarack5

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Posted Jan 13 2012 - 07:40 PM

I've always thought his opinion on the matter was, "I want to rule, and subject the others to my will. If that somehow makes living better for them, then good, it'll make my rule easier. If not, who cares? I'll be in control regardless."
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#29 Offline Scrash

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Posted Jan 13 2012 - 08:22 PM

From what I remember from the bits written in Teridax's viewpoint in the universe guidebook, he did think he was doing the universe a favor by replacing Mata Nui. He saw Mata Nui as obsolete and undeserving of the reverence the Matoran gave him, and saw the universe as too unaware of what he and the Makuta were doing for them. I think that, over time, the sheer amount of resistance he and the others faced just made him into the bitter sociopath he was. By the time he took over, he no longer saw the Matoran as people to benevolently rule, but as insects (calling almost every Toa, Matoran, or Turaga he mentioned "pathetic," "foolish," "miserable," and things along those lines) to be dominated. I honestly believe he never completely understood why he was being resisted by the Toa and others, especially if he truly believed that the Makuta were doing the right thing by taking over. In the end, he went from an ambitious powerhouse individual to a sociopathic tyrant, and I think it's almost unfortunate in a way that he died as such.
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#30 Offline ~garnira returns~

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Posted Jan 18 2012 - 11:28 PM

according to makutas guide to the universe he thought of himself as more intelligent then good beings and told the toa he was protecting mata nui to throw them off.
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#31 Online Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Jan 20 2012 - 06:56 AM

"Now I will protect Mata Nui from you.""Protect him?""Sleep spares him pain. Awake he suffers." - Makuta and Takanuva in Mask of Light"You were sworn to protect the Matoran!""I shall. And when they awake, I will be their great leader." - Lhikan and Makuta in Legends of Metru Nui"Me, a monster?" - Makuta in Time TrapSo yeah, I guess he did think he was doing the right thing. He saw Mata Nui as someone who didn't deserve to rule, because it was Makuta and his brothers who protected the Matoran and made Rahi. Being opposed so much by the Toa and the Matoran made him bitter and even more evil and insane than he was before. But he did care for Mata Nui in a way, I think. See the first quote I posted and remember how he offered partnership with Mata Nui in Journey's End. He was evil, but did not see himself in a way others did.
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#32 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Jan 21 2012 - 11:57 AM

I think, in the line you were referring to from Time Trap, Makuta claimed to be giving his brother a much-needed rest, and also claimed to volunteer his own leadership in the Great Spirit's place, as well as having defeated Krekka and Nidhiki. I think he was just being sarcastic.
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#33 Offline g.m.c4

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Posted Jan 24 2012 - 07:41 PM

I think Teridax new that his actions were evil but it didn't really bother him because he has no conscience. He also had a selfish desire for power and he knew it.Also, he did justify his actions on the basis that Mata Nui was a poor leader and deity.
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#34 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Jan 24 2012 - 07:52 PM

Some more food for thought is Teridax's belief that the Matoran withheld the rightful praise for the Makuta, and instead praised Mata Nui. Which is, in a way, correct, because the Brotherhood did contribute an exorbitant amount to Mata Nui's universe. There was also the "curse" of the Makuta; the fact that their desire for praise and reverence they were accidentally imbued with upon creation.I think Teridax himself was an "end justifies the means" leader. He believed that complete one-man totalitarianism would allow him the level of power he saw himself as deserving.
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#35 Offline Maganar

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Posted Jan 26 2012 - 01:05 AM

I think it's pretty clear Makuta initially saw his actions as just setting the record straight. He just wanted to make it clear who had really done all the work, who had been taking care of everything, and, frankly, who he saw as in charge - himself and the other Makuta. At first, we could say, he saw himself as trying to be a sort of hero and champion of good for his brethren.In time though, that didn't seem to work. No one got his message, and he turned to morally and ethically questionable means to attain his goals. When that continued to be ineffective, I think he stopped viewing the world as right and wrong - just whether it suited him or not. In the end, I think Makuta is just a case of someone who doesn't see any fairness in the world (because he never got his credit) and therefore felt that it didn't matter if he did supposedly evil things. If the world wasn't fair, what did anything at all matter? Why shouldn't he take power at the expense of others? In the end, I don't think he saw anything as good or evil, much less viewed himself as one or the other. He'd just given up on playing the hero.
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#36 Offline Bionickel

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Posted Jan 26 2012 - 10:45 AM

This is why I love this site. In reality, Bionicle didn't have a ton of wiggle-room to explore the dark complexities of Teridax's inner motives. To kids, Makuta is just evil, and portraying him any other way would seem confusing.I think Teridax ultimately became single-minded. He was entitled to Mata Nui's position; therefore, he had the right to blot out anyone and everyone that got in his way, even the Matoran themselves. I'm sure that he wound up being more evil than he ever wanted to be when he eventually took over Mata Nui and later Metru Nui, but I think old habits die hard. If you win an island with blood, you're going to keep an island with blood.
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#37 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jan 27 2012 - 08:23 PM

Some more food for thought is Teridax's belief that the Matoran withheld the rightful praise for the Makuta, and instead praised Mata Nui. Which is, in a way, correct, because the Brotherhood did contribute an exorbitant amount to Mata Nui's universe. There was also the "curse" of the Makuta; the fact that their desire for praise and reverence they were accidentally imbued with upon creation.I think Teridax himself was an "end justifies the means" leader. He believed that complete one-man totalitarianism would allow him the level of power he saw himself as deserving.

Basically, Teridax thought that they should deserve some credit for what they had done for the Matoran. The problem is, it isn't exactly clear what they had done for the Matoran, other than create Rahi beasts that the Matoran had to invent the Vahki and/or call in the Toa to deal with. I suppose they protected the Matoran from the Barraki...oh, and Teridax broke up that nice Matoran civil war with less than friendly means...See, that's the thing. For the Makuta, the results justified the means, and they believed that they should get credit from the Matoran for their results (civil war ended and Barraki gone) without consideration of the means (unleashing of Archives exhibits and treachery). However, the Matoran resented the means the Brotherhood used to achieve their ends, largely because they believed that those ends could be achieved in better ways - like the Toa did. That's probably part of the reason why the Order chose to stay secret - they didn't want confrontation with the Toa over their ways that they achieved the greater good. But for some reason, and this went for Teridax especially, they wanted some credit at least. They felt that they deserved more credit for what they did than Mata Nui, who, at least according to their perspective, did nothing for the Matoran. That was the beginning - think Metru Nui. But somewhere along the line, the Makuta transferred their resentment from the Matoran - the true objects of their fury - to Mata Nui himself. Teridax certainly did. He blamed Mata Nui for not giving him credit for what he had done, even though what he had done before he had done through immoral means. Towering over Mata Nui, Teridax wanted an acknowledgement that he had actually done something to help the Matoran - and then he wanted to pound him into the dust because it had been far too long in coming. He actually believed that he had done better by the Matoran then Mata Nui had even though the Matoran disagreed with him. He had done things for them, and Mata Nui had ignored him and them.

* * *

That's where the quote comes from in JE, now that I think on it "Stand 40 million feet tall, or 100 million, you are still an insect." Mata Nui seems to be referring to the fact that no matter how much Makuta achieves, he will never get the admiration he wants because of how he achieves his ends. Bottom line: He tried to the right thing, but did it the wrong way. He was supposed to take over that giant robot, remember, he just did it in the wrong fashion, and that goes for just about everything he did.

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#38 Offline Takatu

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Posted Jan 27 2012 - 08:42 PM

Eh, you got some of that a little backwards. The civil war and Teridax's less than reasonable way of ending it happened a good five hundred years after he put an end to the Barraki's uprising and began planning his takeover.Also, the Makuta did create legitimately helpful Rahi, from the ussal crabs that helped the Matoran's day-to-day work to large, carnivorous beasts that balanced out the ecosystem in some way. So their initial complaint about not getting the credit they deserved is actually kinda legitimate, they probably did deserve more of a thanks. Doesn't make how they handled it right, of course.
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#39 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jan 27 2012 - 08:52 PM

Eh, you got some of that a little backwards. The civil war and Teridax's less than reasonable way of ending it happened a good five hundred years after he put an end to the Barraki's uprising and began planning his takeover.Also, the Makuta did create legitimately helpful Rahi, from the ussal crabs that helped the Matoran's day-to-day work to large, carnivorous beasts that balanced out the ecosystem in some way. So their initial complaint about not getting the credit they deserved is actually kinda legitimate, they probably did deserve more of a thanks. Doesn't make how they handled it right, of course.

If I couldn't see it, do you think the Matoran could?

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#40 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Jan 27 2012 - 10:52 PM

Yes, it seems to be implies the Makuta did do an awful lot. From when Turaga Lhikan said, "Makuta! You were sworn to protect the Matoran!" in LoMN, it seems that Lhikan didn't expect Makuta to actually go through with any plan like this. If anyone would have seen it coming, it would have been Toa Lhikan.Plus, after Makuta were assigned regions, it can be assumed they did a decent job of maintaining order, as no problem as major as the Matoran Civil War occurred again until their rebellion. I assume that, except for the Makuta such as Mutran, the Makuta did their jobs and kept peace in their regions and the Matoran safe.
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"
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