The Official RPG Planning Topic

[Nato G]

However. "Play nice," nice as it is in theory, cannot be relied upon. People want to win. 

 

This is a tournament, after all. The whole point of it is to win. 

[Blessed Blade]

Write off most weapons and armor as biometals, perhaps? A hybrid of metal and organic materials that make up the tool, rendering it unaffected by iron and other such abilities?

I wanna ROCK on if that's the case, then- wait, we'd start mega merged, nevermind. =P /mega man zx joke

 

That would make sense, though; I'm down for that explanation.

 

However. "Play nice," nice as it is in theory, cannot be relied upon. People want to win. If you don't specify "hey no absorbing projectiles," someone will do it.

Yeah, that might be a good point there. That might appear in our next revision, then. ^^

[Xaeraz]

I think you basically need a "no no-selling" clause, tbh. After all, even if I block my enemy's hatchet with my shield, I'm still jostled a tiny bit because of it. Absorbing projectiles or getting stronger from them? That's a textbook no-sell.

[Nato G]

I still think it would be far simpler to ban iron altogether, since you're already gotten rid of magnetism.

[Wyrd Bid Ful Araed]

Seemingly, no, because you can't just go 'lol magnetic field' and blow attacks away.

Well firstly I'd point out that, as staff, you could just step in and give someone a slap on the wrist if they tried blocking every attack with a magnetic field, especially if it extends to non-magnetic attacks (how would you block fire or ice with magnetism?)

Secondly, since someone has already pointed out Iron can be used for much the same rule-bending as Magnetism, I'll mention that so can Lightning. Creating electrical forcefields and the like has been a confirmed power of that element ever since Tahnok-Kal. If you're going to try and prevent autododging by banning elements I fear you may run out of elements very quickly

[Not Quite Dead]

Or just enforce fair play and consistently rule on unfair uses of iron and magnetism, instead of banning them.

[Voltex]

Or just enforce fair play and consistently rule on unfair uses of iron and magnetism, instead of banning them.

I like this idea.

[Toa of Dancing]

IMO every power (except for something like time or life) is viable if there is an understanding between the staff and the players that if one were to overstep his or her boundaries, the staff have the right to be as vehement as they like in punishment. It's honestly harder to play an overpowered character, and that can make it either more or less fun.

 

But, it's up to you guys. It's your RPG. As it stands, it's looking pretty good. Only comment I have is that Mahri-Nui still seems off with the whole bubble-popping.

[Chro]

We could probably ditch the "half the fighters die immediately" thing and instead write that the entire stage being flooded obviously poses a significant threat...

In the past, since we didn't have much plot for Bionifight, we agreed that when the stage flooded, the Pit Mutagen affected most of players and made them amphibious, which was an effective excuse for not killing all of them. I guess that could still work too - perhaps the Organizers synthesized a short-term fast-acting imitation of the mutagen. Or it could be removed from the body of every fighter upon leaving the battle (by death or by outlasting the round).

Edited January 17, 2015 by Chro

[Xaeraz]

You could just replace the water surrounding the bubble with some kind of hyper-oxygenated fluid, as well, enabling fighters to breathe semi-normal after a few minutes of panic. That'd be a solution that didn't require competitors to mutate without the permission of their players. 

[Blessed Blade]

Well, to be fair, the Pit's mutagen already IS fast acting, isn't it? Wasn't that how the Mahri transformed, or am I misremembering the parts of 2007 that were locked behind a book-wall?

 

Though, there'd definitely be a counter-agent if we still had mutagen of some sort.

[IcarusBen]

Nope. Technically, the Mahri got mutated by the Ignika before they could drown. That's how they were stopped from dying.

[Chro]

I think the Mahri were mutated by the Ignika. (Ninja'd by Ben)

 

Xaeraz - I'm looking at the "mutation" here not as an actual plot element but as a way to explain why we aren't insta-KO-ing all if the combatants. Considering my hypothetical solution includes the mutagen being removed or reversed after the battle, and its sole purpose would be to prevent your character's death (or KO... I'm still used to it being considered death in Bionifight), I kinda doubt anyone would be opposed to it?...

Edited January 17, 2015 by Chro

[IcarusBen]

Give them rebreathers for the Mahri Nui level.

[Some Random Phrase]

I imagine that a mask of healing would do a fair job of dealing with that.

No, it wouldn't unless the user had a good understanding of the particular user. 

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

BIONIFIGHT REVIEW

 

I'm going to streamline the review process a bit, just to save some time:

 

I. Things to Add:

1. More arenas.

 

II. Things to Remove:

1. Giving specified times, hour warnings, and so forth? Unnecessary. Especially here, on the opening thing. Everything about "lasting until X time" or whatever should be cut out, as far as I'm concerned. But i notice that this isn't exactly the first time, that somebody has brought this up. Nevertheless, not a fan.

2. The "the location of the tournament is based on legendary items" line. Why would this be common knowledge for the contestants?

3. The arenas. To explain: having five arenas doesn't really seem like enough, and gives too little environmental diversity. At the same time, describing them now takes away the surprise. If older players from previous games get involved, they can have their characters tell others about it in-character; otherwise, let every new environment be a surprise.

 

III. Things to Change:

1. The name "Bionifight" works as a title for the RPG, but not as the name for the tournament itself. The name "Bionifight" implies a very light-hearted tone, which is directly contrasted by the actual content of the story. After all, nobody uses the name "Bionicle" as an in-story term, so why should it be used in this one? Treat the game aspect as a game; treat the story, which includes names and people, as a story.

2. I normally don't say this, but I think the current RPG write-up could use a little bit more fluff. While excess fluff is useless, there's very little provided to give a proper understanding of the setting itself. Some quotes from the Host, accounts by NPCs regarding the area... maybe even an in-character description for the RPG? This is your starting post, and yet outside of the initial "hook", it's a little boring. I'll also profess to disliking the font size, but that's almost a non-issue.

3. I would do an overhaul of the point system. I would drop the "ten points" deal, because it sets a quantitative amount of effort to get special rewards and the like. Stating that the "points" a character achieves tends to correlate which achievement by the Host and Queen would work a lot better, and also allows more leeway for the staff in doling out items and the like.

 

IV. Suggestions:

1. You should have at least one preliminary round prior to the actual tournament, where players are placed into brackets; you might even have it be a free-for-all with everybody, to act as a skills test. This allows players to plan ahead of time, and maybe even attempt action against their rivals prior to the fight beginning. It would allow players to make bets, and possibly even deals with others in terms of those bets. Perhaps the Host and other event managers might even come to certain characters and have them intentionally lose? Of course, along those lines, a losers bracket would almost certainly be needed, to keep the fights going. Now, also keep in mind the most important part of this: it allows you to place overtly powerful characters against enemies who can no-sell those abilities. For instance, a Toa of Magnetism has a huge advantage in melee combat; against a Psionics user who doesn't employ metallic weapons? They're going to have a much tougher time. Do this, and you can ensure players never win as a result of having "OP" characters; everyone has a weakness.

2. As an addendum to the above point, since new players will constantly be coming in, you might want to make the brackets exceptionally large, with the assumption that NPC fights are taking place, at least until the addition of two new characters, and new spots in the fights. Towards the very end, this would pose a problem; but then again, it wouldn't seem particularly fair to give a one-week player the championship title, in sans of a three-month one. Oh, and whenever a player drops out, their character could be replaced by the Host with a newbie, just for kicks.

3. Final addendum to the above point; the various game types do work quite well, even with the brackets. The only real change needed would be the number of players advancing, possibly allowing a lot more.

 

There's probably more than that, but I can't think of it at the moment, and my time to make this post is running out. So here, have fun; knock me, you, everybody out.

 

Also:

 

Write off most weapons and armor as biometals, perhaps? A hybrid of metal and organic materials that make up the tool, rendering it unaffected by iron and other such abilities?

 

Listen to this. This is a good idea.

 

-Toa Levacius Zehvor

Edited January 17, 2015 by Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Voltex]

BIONIFIGHT REVIEW

 

I'm going to streamline the review process a bit, just to save some time:

 

I. Things to Add:

1. More arenas.

You say here that we should add more arenas, but then immediately suggest that we simply remove the arenas entirely instead.

 

II. Things to Remove:

1. Giving specified times, hour warnings, and so forth? Unnecessary. Especially here, on the opening thing. Everything about "lasting until X time" or whatever should be cut out, as far as I'm concerned. But i notice that this isn't exactly the first time, that somebody has brought this up. Nevertheless, not a fan.

The time limits are staying - nobody has explicitly stated that they would be a deal breaker. Besides, if you want advance warning about being summoned to the arena... then we kind of have to work in real time.

2. The "the location of the tournament is based on legendary items" line. Why would this be common knowledge for the contestants?

Because the contestants are free to go look for them? We said that there are tunnels leading to the Infinity Gems for a reason - so that players can explore and see what they find.

3. The arenas. To explain: having five arenas doesn't really seem like enough, and gives too little environmental diversity. At the same time, describing them now takes away the surprise. If older players from previous games get involved, they can have their characters tell others about it in-character; otherwise, let every new environment be a surprise.

I don't see any reason why the arenas have to be a surprise - if every player knows what the arenas are, then they can all think about what strategies they might utilize in each one. What I have done in the past is allowed players to design new arenas and then, after making sure that they would work, I have added them to the game. I would be willing to do something of the sort this time around as well. Besides, with the current setup for arena battles, we might only have a single arena battle in one month; which in turn means that less arena variants are necessary.

 

III. Things to Change:

1. The name "Bionifight" works as a title for the RPG, but not as the name for the tournament itself. The name "Bionifight" implies a very light-hearted tone, which is directly contrasted by the actual content of the story. After all, nobody uses the name "Bionicle" as an in-story term, so why should it be used in this one? Treat the game aspect as a game; treat the story, which includes names and people, as a story.

There's no reason to call the RPG "Bionifight" if the tournament itself is not also called "Bionifight". If we call the tournament "Flubber", I'd expect the RPG to be called "Flubber". 

2. I normally don't say this, but I think the current RPG write-up could use a little bit more fluff. While excess fluff is useless, there's very little provided to give a proper understanding of the setting itself. Some quotes from the Host, accounts by NPCs regarding the area... maybe even an in-character description for the RPG? This is your starting post, and yet outside of the initial "hook", it's a little boring. I'll also profess to disliking the font size, but that's almost a non-issue.

Some extra fluff could certainly be added. As to the font size, I have no reason to believe that it is really an issue.

3. I would do an overhaul of the point system. I would drop the "ten points" deal, because it sets a quantitative amount of effort to get special rewards and the like. Stating that the "points" a character achieves tends to correlate which achievement by the Host and Queen would work a lot better, and also allows more leeway for the staff in doling out items and the like.

I like this idea and I'll see if Blade and Chro are fine with implementing it.

 

IV. Suggestions:

1. You should have at least one preliminary round prior to the actual tournament, where players are placed into brackets; you might even have it be a free-for-all with everybody, to act as a skills test. This allows players to plan ahead of time, and maybe even attempt action against their rivals prior to the fight beginning. It would allow players to make bets, and possibly even deals with others in terms of those bets. Perhaps the Host and other event managers might even come to certain characters and have them intentionally lose? Of course, along those lines, a losers bracket would almost certainly be needed, to keep the fights going. Now, also keep in mind the most important part of this: it allows you to place overtly powerful characters against enemies who can no-sell those abilities. For instance, a Toa of Magnetism has a huge advantage in melee combat; against a Psionics user who doesn't employ metallic weapons? They're going to have a much tougher time. Do this, and you can ensure players never win as a result of having "OP" characters; everyone has a weakness.

2. As an addendum to the above point, since new players will constantly be coming in, you might want to make the brackets exceptionally large, with the assumption that NPC fights are taking place, at least until the addition of two new characters, and new spots in the fights. Towards the very end, this would pose a problem; but then again, it wouldn't seem particularly fair to give a one-week player the championship title, in sans of a three-month one. Oh, and whenever a player drops out, their character could be replaced by the Host with a newbie, just for kicks.

3. Final addendum to the above point; the various game types do work quite well, even with the brackets. The only real change needed would be the number of players advancing, possibly allowing a lot more.

I think the tournament will work fine as-is right now. We have enough tools to stop players from being unfair in battle.

 

Replies are in blue above.

[IcarusBen]

I think he meant to add more arenas but not tell the players about them. Having them as a surprise keeps players on there toes.

 

Also, remember, fights can go on for weeks. Having them based on a real time schedule is simply awful, especially when you have to go spend a week or two on an out-of-battle quest and get snatched up to go fight, only to get dropped back off a few weeks later IRL and have to start over. If I go on a excursion that takes me a week to do, then I get whisked away, I have to do that whole week over again. It's frustrating.

[Nato G]

Also, remember, fights can go on for weeks. Having them based on a real time schedule is simply awful

 

I agree. Not everyone can be online all the time, so forcing all of the competitors into a position where they have to finish the fight before a certain date IRL is going to be a real problem. If someone can only post once or twice a day, or ends up fighting a particular opponent who lives in a completely different timezone, then things could drag on for quite a while. I honestly think it would be simpler to let fights run their natural course instead of adding time constraints. 

[Voltex]

I think he meant to add more arenas but not tell the players about them. Having them as a surprise keeps players on there toes.

 

Also, remember, fights can go on for weeks. Having them based on a real time schedule is simply awful, especially when you have to go spend a week or two on an out-of-battle quest and get snatched up to go fight, only to get dropped back off a few weeks later IRL and have to start over. If I go on a excursion that takes me a week to do, then I get whisked away, I have to do that whole week over again. It's frustrating.

 

At the above point: that sounds better, yeah. I misread that part of the post.

At your second point: I'm not that cruel, though. If you go questing for three weeks and then get pulled into the arena... I'm not gonna make you travel for three weeks again. Certain locations (spoilers, so I'm not going into detail) might have to be travelled to again, but I'd allow that travel time to be drastically cut down; but if you were just in, say, a locker room, there's no reason you can't land right back where you were before the battle.

 

 

Also, remember, fights can go on for weeks. Having them based on a real time schedule is simply awful

 

I agree. Not everyone can be online all the time, so forcing all of the competitors into a position where they have to finish the fight before a certain date IRL is going to be a real problem. If someone can only post once or twice a day, or ends up fighting a particular opponent who lives in a completely different timezone, then things could drag on for quite a while. I honestly think it would be simpler to let fights run their natural course instead of adding time constraints. 

 

 

There have been six Bionifight games.

All of them have had time limits for the rounds (it used to be three days before I made it a week), and there have never been problems with it. I can increase the battle time to the second Saturday after the announcement instead of the first (which guarantees at least a week in the arena), but there's no reason to get rid of it entirely.

 

E: And yes, I do realize that games are different from RPGs. But when said game was all about RPG-style combat, you'll forgive me for expecting that RPGers can manage it as well.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Strange Festive Voltex

[Silvan Haven]

Your version of the RPG Zehvor, sounds less like tournament and more like a bunch of rigged matches with the winner chosen by the people running the place.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Silvan Haven

[IcarusBen]

There have been six Bionifight games.

 

All of them have had time limits for the rounds (it used to be three days before I made it a week), and there have never been problems with it. I can increase the battle time to the second Saturday after the announcement instead of the first (which guarantees at least a week in the arena), but there's no reason to get rid of it entirely.

 

This isn't a part of Games and Trivia. This is an RPG. You'll naturally have both more well-thought out posts, but also lots more filler. Things work differently here, and combat (especially a battle royale) lasts much, much, much longer. I've been lucky because my fights last for a very short amount of time, but I'm the exception, not the rule. Combat between a lot of characters WILL last a long time, meaning having at least a week isn't going to be even close to enough.

 

As for adventuring vs. combat, a better idea is to give each player a notification that a match will be starting soon and give them a choice of teleporting back. You can give them an incentive for participating, but forcing them to drop everything to fight is annoying, and your players will not be happy.

 

This idea doesn't work for an RPG because it's inherently flawed. You give players the option of exploring but you yank them from exploration to fight each other. Could you imagine;

 

BOB : So, we're going to jump across the pit, pull the rope, ring the bell, then swing from vine to vine until we reach the door and the ancient artifact.

ALICE : Okay... So, ready?

BOB : Ready if yo-

*FLASH*

BOB: -u are... Wait... What's going *stab* URK!

ALICE : Sorry Bob, ARENA FIGHT! 

 

Situations like that are going to happen under this model, and they'll break up the flow of gameplay tremendously. The arena shouldn't interfere with the exploration, it should help complement it. 

 

Again, here's an idea. Give players a notice that there will be a match soon and give them the choice of fighting or not. After a day, tally up how many fighters that agreed to fight and choose the type of battle from there. Give incentives for fighting in the arena but don't force players to fight. Then, let the fight continue until there is a winner, give them a reward, rinse and repeat.

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

Your version of the RPG Zehvor, sounds like tournament and more like a bunch of rigged matches with the winner chosen by the people running the place.

 

That is, in fact, what a tournament is.

 

The way the proposed Bionifight RPG is set up at the moment makes it a mess of unnecessary fights in sequence. The Infinity Gems and stuff on the side are there, sure, but they're completely reactive to the players, rather than an active player in the plot.

 

When you make an RPG, you're trying to create a setting and a story. There needs to be an objective, and there needs to be difficulties which show up to prevent individuals from reaching that objective. There needs to be some form of an antagonistic force (not necessarily evil, not necessarily a person, not necessarily even aware that it's the antagonist), or there's no sense of drive.

 

I think the problem is that because the fights tend to be the most memorable aspect of RPGs, people in turn view them as the most important factor. But every memorable fight has something which transpires before it, and has some sort of build up, which separates it from the less memorable fights which just randomly happen. The example of Star Wars vs. the Prequels comes to mind via natural reflex, really.

 

In any case, rigging the matches won't always be the case. Especially if players don't follow "the rules" that those in charge want. Really, the biggest matter is ensuring the NPC leaders have their own personal motivations, which are separate from those of the GMs; otherwise, the whole thing falls apart. And, frankly, there's a reason why I listed it as a "suggestion"; it's based on my personal judgement on the matter, and for all I know could be just as fallible, if not worse. I can't say for certain.

 

I do recall one of the things that crossed my mind, as I'm writing now - there need to be gamblers. Like, seriously, gambling options are pretty much a requirement in this setting.

 

But back to the initial point: If the game is going to be done as an RPG, it can't be a straight line. Tournaments don't just take place for the laughs; they take place because they're a sport, and like all sports, the money comes from either advertising, the state, or gambling. Seeing as there doesn't appear to be advertisements or state involvement, I'd say gambling wold be the case here. Which means there will be people up above not playing fair.

 

Plus, not everything needs to happen in the open. Two players could easily go to PM with the GM, and describe their own under-the-table dealings to ensure that lovely reward money is being raked in.

 

(Sorry if I got a little verbose, but some things need to be said. )

 

There have been six Bionifight games.

All of them have had time limits for the rounds (it used to be three days before I made it a week), and there have never been problems with it. I can increase the battle time to the second Saturday after the announcement instead of the first (which guarantees at least a week in the arena), but there's no reason to get rid of it entirely.

 

E: And yes, I do realize that games are different from RPGs. But when said game was all about RPG-style combat, you'll forgive me for expecting that RPGers can manage it as well.

 

At the risk of summoning up the "elitist" comment from before... there are some pretty heavy differences.

 

I checked the last Bionifight topic, read over stuff, and can say that most of those posts are quite simple, quick, and to the point. Contrast that to most of the posts here, where a character introduction can go over one thousand words easily. Older writers in particular like to take their time, and internal monologue, particularly during a fight, is the order of the day.

 

Don't expect RPGers to "manage it as well"; design your RPG to match them. If Bionifight is better served as a fighting game, then Games & Trivia is the ideal forum. If it's meant to tell an interactive story, then this is the forum to use. But it takes time.

 

There's no reason to call the RPG "Bionifight" if the tournament itself is not also called "Bionifight". If we call the tournament "Flubber", I'd expect the RPG to be called "Flubber".

 

The RPG "City in the Dark" takes place in a city, which is in the dark, but the city itself is not called "City in the Dark".

 

If the RPG is called "Bionifight", it applies that Bionicle characters are fighting. It does not, in fact, imply that the setting is called Bionifight.

 

I don't see any reason why the arenas have to be a surprise - if every player knows what the arenas are, then they can all think about what strategies they might utilize in each one. What I have done in the past is allowed players to design new arenas and then, after making sure that they would work, I have added them to the game. I would be willing to do something of the sort this time around as well. Besides, with the current setup for arena battles, we might only have a single arena battle in one month; which in turn means that less arena variants are necessary.

 

You just answered your own question.

 

Keep in mind two things:

 

- Multiple fights can take place at the same time, no problem. Seeing as the Enforcer seems specifically designed to the unbeatable, at this stage in the game, no reason he can't monitor two places at once.

 

And:

 

- There's no need to reuse arenas.

 

There are literally thousands of possible arena options. Making every fight different adds flavor, adds an element of unpredictability, and forces players to utilize their powers better. As mentioned prior, it can also even the ground between two players; a Toa of Fire might hold an advantage over a Ga-Matoran in most cases, but once you throw them in an underwater arena, things get a lot more interesting.

 

Because the contestants are free to go look for them? We said that there are tunnels leading to the Infinity Gems for a reason - so that players can explore and see what they find.

 

Yes, that is true. But the question was, why do characters know that previous tournaments have also been established where items could be located?

 

You say here that we should add more arenas, but then immediately suggest that we simply remove the arenas entirely instead.

I think he meant to add more arenas but not tell the players about them. Having them as a surprise keeps players on there toes.

 

This.

 

-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Nato G]

As for adventuring vs. combat, a better idea is to give each player a notification that a match will be starting soon and give them a choice of teleporting back. You can give them an incentive for participating, but forcing them to drop everything to fight is annoying, and your players will not be happy.

 

Corpus Rahkshi is a really good example of this. There are assignments, but they aren't mandatory. Players can choose if they want their characters to participate or not. I'd suggest you try to do similar. Now obviously, you can't be letting players sit out on every single arena fight, but I still think giving them a choice is a good idea. 

 

There have been six Bionifight games.

 

All of them have had time limits for the rounds (it used to be three days before I made it a week), and there have never been problems with it. I can increase the battle time to the second Saturday after the announcement instead of the first (which guarantees at least a week in the arena), but there's no reason to get rid of it entirely.

 

 

Again, this attitude of "we've done this before, there's no reason to change anything" is coming through. As IcarusBen said before:

 

 

This isn't a part of Games and Trivia. This is an RPG.

 

I've had a look over he old Bionifght stuff you've linked in previous discussions. Skimming over, it really is all just fighting, and very fast-paced at that.

 

If you're planning to turn it into an RPG, expect there to be players who like to add depth to their writing, and want to focus on characterisation, description, interaction, and so on. If you're really set on putting this game here in the RPG forum, you're going to get RPG players, and we like to do things a certain way, so unless you're willing to accommodate your game to fit that, there's really no point in trying to fit it in here. 

 

Also, I'd expect that if this game gets off the ground, you're going to have lots of Bionifght fans join up, as well as RPG forum regulars, and a whole lot of new members who think this thing sounds interesting. Potentially, you'll end up with a lot of players who'll all have very different styles of writing, so I think it's unrealistic to expect that fights can actually be wrapped up within just one week, or even two. I've seen one-on-one battles in Corpus and the BZPRPG that can last days, whether it's because the characters are really good fighters, or because the players aren't online as often. In a free-for-all, even a team battle, things are going to take much longer. 

 

I'd still suggest letting fights play out naturally instead of trying to constrain them to a real life timeframe. 

[Silvan Haven]

 

That is, in fact, what a tournament is.

 

I really have to wonder what sort of tournaments you have been a part of/watched to think that this is common practice.

 

 

But back to the initial point: If the game is going to be done as an RPG, it can't be a straight line. Tournaments don't just take place for the laughs; they take place because they're a sport, and like all sports, the money comes from either advertising, the state, or gambling. Seeing as there doesn't appear to be advertisements or state involvement, I'd say gambling wold be the case here. Which means there will be people up above not playing fair.

 

Somehow I don't think money is a very big issue for the people capable of pulling beings out of their home dimensions almost at will. From the look of things these people just do it for the lulz.

 

Aside from those points everything else are pretty close to spot on and give and good look at some of the base problems here.

 

 

 

If you're really set on putting this game here in the RPG forum, you're going to get RPG players, and we like to do things a certain way, so unless you're willing to accommodate your game to fit that, there's really no point in trying to fit it in here.

 

Don't mind this part everyone. Apparently Nato was rushed while writing and it came out wrong.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Silvan Haven

[JiMing]

Keep in mind that any introspection and monolouging was usually kept to a minimum so not to get the game shut down. You skimmed the topic, but there were hints of banter, rivalries, alliances, and character. Not exclusively 'persun 1 pawnches persun 2 and den person 2 keecks persun lol we smarty-pants', like some believe.

 

I see no reason those hints could flourish in an environment where they are encouraged.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Toru Acura: The Saboteur

[IcarusBen]

Actually, I agree with that last point Silvan quoted from Nato. You're going to get a very specific audience here and if we don't like it, it won't be played and it'll flop. With the model you keep insisting on, it won't fit here. You're going to have to seriously overhaul it or it'll be putting a square peg in a round hole. 

 

I'm going to bring up two proposals, my own and "Tanks."

 

The Asylum is mostly exploration and interaction with other characters based with survival horror complementing it. Tanks is mostly exploration and interaction with other characters with tank combat complementing it. Bionifight is a tournament that takes the spotlight from exploration and character interaction by overruling it on all levels.

 

The tournament model is best for two things; G&T or to complement, you guessed it, exploration and character interaction.

[Silvan Haven]

You may agree with the sentiment, but it is not something we want to encourage here.

 

"Make what we like or get out" is not a very good way to bring in new players and ideas.

[Blessed Blade]

Actually, I agree with that last point Silvan quoted from Nato. You're going to get a very specific audience here and if we don't like it, it won't be played and it'll flop.

Here, can I throw in my two cents about this sorta attitude?

 

It's horrible.

 

It's so counter intuitive; and basically you're trying to say that the only things that can ever be accepted are the things that are guaranteed to work and appeal to the current audience is something that really harms the RPG scene. But yet, it's something that is definitely ever present. I've seen it, for years now. It probably wasn't as noticeable here, because of how it was run in a contest until recently, but Completely Off Topic/Off Topic Culture has kinda had that sorta feel for a while.

 

There's a reason that I very rarely propose RPGs in any forum. It's because I don't like having to gut my plans all the time, just to appeal to one or two people who can't give things a chance as they are. Heck; I've had ideas for a long time, but every time I want to try to go for it, either I hesitate because I know that everyone will want it changed so that it's a totally different thing, just to fit their own wants; or because even the co-hosts want that.

 

It's not even close to just being because of tournament RPGs or the like, either; even plain adventure ones, that are almost guaranteed to work for different reasons, are forced to conform to 'the audience's expectations', despite the fact that half the people who want those changes in the first place won't even play it.

 

I get that there's probably a reason, but it's a very big thing that I see, and it's just... I don't like seeing it, because if I'm getting that sorta feel because of stuff like that; what about the other potential RPG hosts?

[Nato G]

Actually, I agree with that last point Silvan quoted from Nato. You're going to get a very specific audience here and if we don't like it, it won't be played and it'll flop. 

 

That's not quite what I meant, Ben. I'm not saying it'll flop. 

 

 

 

Don't mind this part everyone. Apparently Nato was rushed while writing and it came out wrong.

 

Yeah, that came out really badly, I'll admit. Let me try this again. 

 

You've taken a game that was popular and successful in the G&T forum and brought it here, to the RPG forum, without stopping to consider the writing styles and expectations of the players that spend their time here. Right now, there's a lot of elements in Bionifight that seem designed to specifically appeal to only the G&T crowd, without considering the RPG forum's perspective. I'm not trying

 

 

 

 to say that the only things that can ever be accepted are the things that are guaranteed to work and appeal to the current audience   

 

What I'm trying to say is that you need to find a midway point where your game will appeal equally to both sets of audiences. 

[IcarusBen]

Think about it; you wouldn't make a Tetris game that makes you play a rhythm game before you place a block or it turns into another block. You wouldn't make an RPG that makes you play Tetris to do an attack. You wouldn't make a GTA clone where you have to randomly get out of the car and repair the engine. Certain things don't mesh at all.

 

To Nato, yeah, I misinterpreted your statement, but I do believe in my interpretation of it.

[Silvan Haven]

See my above post.

 

I admit that there is some amount of what you are talking about, not much, but there are a couple people like that.

 

However most of the reviews you are getting do have more to do with what makes a good RPG than what we prefer to play. Thirty Contests with at least ten RPGs each does a pretty good job with the refining process. Sure not all of use were here for all of those contest but for the most part we do still know what we are talking about.

 

Not that you don't its just that we put more of our skill points towards TBRPGs.

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

I just want to point out a somewhat amusing thing:

 

The Academy was (one of) first RPG(s) in the contest system, and it was set in a school. Before my time, by over half a decade easily. I believe the topic had some 1000 pages or whatever? Not sure, but it was an enormous number.

 

And what is the first RPG of the judging system? Corpus Rahkshi, set in a school. Also an enormous success, particularly compared to past RPGs over the last few years. Give it another month, and it'll have surpassed Techna in the same amount of time (or is it already over?), and that was the biggest one we've had during my time here (excepting maybe War Zone, because I don't recall how many pages it had).

 

Everything is running parallel, people. Everything.

 

I really have to wonder what sort of tournaments you have been a part of/watched to think that this is common practice.

 

The fun kinds.

 

Plus, narrative with magical flying Toa shooting fire. Realism is a dead concept around here.

 

Somehow I don't think money is a very big issue for the people capable of pulling beings out of their home dimensions almost at will. From the look of things these people just do it for the lulz.

 

Aside from those points everything else are pretty close to spot on and give and good look at some of the base problems here.

 

For over one thousand years? No, they've got to have an ulterior motive of some kind, or the lulz would start to get old.

 

Besides, where there's spectators, there's capital, and there's people. Where there's people, they are people who want capital, and people without the guile to hold onto it. Gambling is only natural. Also? Fun. A fool and his money are easily parted, after all.

 

Especially when the "loser" gets 30% of your winnings for betting against him.

 

Actually, I agree with that last point Silvan quoted from Nato. You're going to get a very specific audience here and if we don't like it, it won't be played and it'll flop. With the model you keep insisting on, it won't fit here. You're going to have to seriously overhaul it or it'll be putting a square peg in a round hole. 

 

I'm going to bring up two proposals, my own and "Tanks."

 

The Asylum is mostly exploration and interaction with other characters based with survival horror complementing it. Tanks is mostly exploration and interaction with other characters with tank combat complementing it. Bionifight is a tournament that takes the spotlight from exploration and character interaction by overruling it on all levels.

 

The tournament model is best for two things; G&T or to complement, you guessed it, exploration and character interaction.

 

Actually, that's wrong.

 

The tournament model is good for creating a focused storyline, and setting an objective for players to reach for. It is a tool; neither good, or bad. All that matters is how the RPG is run.

 

Exploration is also feasible, but once again, it's a tool.

 

Everything. Is. A. Tool.

 

Bionifight has it's problems, but exploration isn't one of them. If anything, I'd cut out the Infinity Stone sub-plot entirely, and focus entirely on character interaction within the arena areas. The tunnels and the like could remain as old, abandoned areas for players to have nightly duels and stuff like that, trying to remove the competition or whatever. Maybe even secret meetings, beneath the notice of those above.

 

When all is said and done, though, two factors dominate: playerbase and GMs.

 

Bionifight will likely bring in new players, if it really does drag a few G&T posters over here.

 

The GMs, I can never say entirely for sure. However, since Blade is acting as a co-GM, and has been RP'ing longer than I have, I don't think there's much room for concern in that department.

 

Our issue isn't whether the RPG will flop; it's whether it's best turned into an RPG, or best left in G&T.

 

You may agree with the sentiment, but it is not something we want to encourage here.

 

"Make what we like or get out" is not a very good way to bring in new players and ideas.

 

"Hey, Xerox, we made this cool device that let's you operate a GUI!"

 

"That's ridiculous, and useless."

 

"Hey, Xerox, were' a small corporation who like that. Can we steal it?"

 

"Go ahead, it's useless."

 

"Xerox, you're going to regret not listening to us."

 

Later...

 

"Hmm, maybe the engineers were right."

 

I think that "don't be Xerox" might be a good addendum to the original post. Should someone get GSR to edit that in?

 

Here, can I throw in my two cents about this sorta attitude?

It's horrible.

It's so counter intuitive; and basically you're trying to say that the only things that can ever be accepted are the things that are guaranteed to work and appeal to the current audience is something that really harms the RPG scene. But yet, it's something that is definitely ever present. I've seen it, for years now. It probably wasn't as noticeable here, because of how it was run in a contest until recently, but Completely Off Topic/Off Topic Culture has kinda had that sorta feel for a while.

There's a reason that I very rarely propose RPGs in any forum. It's because I don't like having to gut my plans all the time, just to appeal to one or two people who can't give things a chance as they are. Heck; I've had ideas for a long time, but every time I want to try to go for it, either I hesitate because I know that everyone will want it changed so that it's a totally different thing, just to fit their own wants; or because even the co-hosts want that.

It's not even close to just being because of tournament RPGs or the like, either; even plain adventure ones, that are almost guaranteed to work for different reasons, are forced to conform to 'the audience's expectations', despite the fact that half the people who want those changes in the first place won't even play it.

I get that there's probably a reason, but it's a very big thing that I see, and it's just... I don't like seeing it, because if I'm getting that sorta feel because of stuff like that; what about the other potential RPG hosts?

 

It's in situations like this where I find my love of debate to be advantageous, really...

 

I think the best rule of thumb to use is "boring, therefore wrong." If the RPG is made more interesting by doing something, it needs to be done. If it becomes less interesting, then don't do it. I mean, heck, wasn't that pretty much the whole reason why Aloft was made in the first place: to make something completely new and interesting?

 

Personally, I feel that Bionifight, at the moment, isn't offering much more than any other tournament RPG could. There needs to be something distinctive about it; something new and different. One tournament RPG basically means no other tournament RPGs can be running at the same time, for lack of players. If this will be the case, there needs to be something about it the others can't offer.

 

Keep in mind that any introspection and monolouging was usually kept to a minimum so not to get the game shut down. You skimmed the topic, but there were hints of banter, rivalries, alliances, and character. Not exclusively 'persun 1 pawnches persun 2 and den person 2 keecks persun lol we smarty-pants', like some believe.

I see no reason those hints could flourish in an environment where they are encouraged.

 

Yes, all of this is understood. But the "why" isn't important; the result is. When you add other elements, you get longer posts.

 

Think about it; you wouldn't make a Tetris game that makes you play a rhythm game before you place a block or it turns into another block. You wouldn't make an RPG that makes you play Tetris to do an attack. You wouldn't make a GTA clone where you have to randomly get out of the car and repair the engine. Certain things don't mesh at all.

 

To Nato, yeah, I misinterpreted your statement, but I do believe in my interpretation of it.

 

I've played D&D games which required going across a Minesweeper field so I don't know what you're talking about.

 

-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[Blessed Blade]

Nato: Good usage of working my quote in seamlessly. xD

 

Just as a note about this, though; I wasn't directing that to anyone but people who actually believe that sort of interpretation. You have points, and we've been trying to work to it, but sometimes things are underestimated a bit.

 

Icarus:

You wouldn't make an RPG that makes you play Tetris to do an attack.

I would play that. =P

 

You wouldn't make a GTA clone where you have to randomly get out of the car and repair the engine.

... I would play that too. xP

 

Only thing I wouldn't play is the tetris thing.

 

Also, as for your interpretation, please see my post, because yeah. Because if the 'different stuff' things were to my post, then, that does not match up to your example. Because what you're trying to say is that I'm pitching an adventure game as a shooter game; where I'm pitching an adventure game as an adventure game, but people hate that it's such, and want it changed up so it's not that anymore.

 

It was a general thing, and not even related to Bionifight, to be honest.

[Voltex]

Think about it; you wouldn't make a Tetris game that makes you play a rhythm game before you place a block or it turns into another block. You wouldn't make an RPG that makes you play Tetris to do an attack. You wouldn't make a GTA clone where you have to randomly get out of the car and repair the engine. Certain things don't mesh at all.

 

To Nato, yeah, I misinterpreted your statement, but I do believe in my interpretation of it.

 

Um... what?!

 

For what it's worth, I would absolutely play an RPG that involved performing attacks by playing Tetris. 

 

---

 

@Silvan/Nato/Levacius: Re-reading over your posts so that I don't miss (or just misunderstand ) anything. 

[Nato G]

 

 

 Our issue isn't whether the RPG will flop; it's whether it's best turned into an RPG, or best left in G&T. 

 

^ This.

 

 

This is basically exactly what I've been doing an awful job of trying to say this entire time. I feel really stupid now that someone's managed to condense my entire poorly-worded paragraph-long  outlook into one sentence. 

[Blessed Blade]

I think the best rule of thumb to use is "boring, therefore wrong." If the RPG is made more interesting by doing something, it needs to be done. If it becomes less interesting, then don't do it. I mean, heck, wasn't that pretty much the whole reason why Aloft was made in the first place: to make something completely new and interesting?

I can get that, as that really was the biggest point behind that. xP

 

The issue I have isn't behind criticism; it happens, it's going to be required, and it's very useful at times. xP

 

The thing I'm not impressed about, is when you're outright told a thing can't work just because people hate it. Not because it could be done better, or improved, but outright that people won't play it because it's not good, so you have to 'improve' it by changing the very foundation of... everything. Like some people in OCT in the past saying that because licensed material RPGs tended to fail, that everyone should shy away from trying it and that it likely wouldn't be approved or such.

 

Basically, if it's good, then I like it, if it's criticism just to be Xerox, then I don't like it, to use your example. xP

[JiMing]

IcarusBen, I must say, I disagree heartily with your vision.

 

I hope you don't like seeing your metaphor being used in this post too. See, I'm not gonna argue an RPG mixes with Tetris is an unorthodox RPG. But what I WILL argue is that it is still an RPG, and NOT inherently bad in it of itself. Not everyone shares your perspective.

 

Imagine a person who likes platformers. Now imagine him admitting that to an FPS player, who derides the platformer player for not being a 'true' gamer, and that only FPS games are 'real' video games and capable of being successful. Except, both platformers and FPS games are videogames, and each has its fans and neither are a 'true' representation of what gaming is.

 

Now to take things back to the situation at hand. You're essentially saying the kind of RPGs you like are the only ones that can ever be successful and that anything else isn't a 'real' RPG and is doomed to failure. This is a poisonous attitude, and it kills several potential newcomers turned off by just how closed-minded it is... Maybe Bionifight has its issues, but to say it should be completely overhauled to have a chance? Highly presumptuous.

 

Also, there are critics of Bionifight Infinite who don't approve of your attitude. Think you had the majority on your side? Not anymore...

[Voltex]

I think one thing I need to remind you all of is that the characters in Bionifight Infinite are being pulled into this tournament against their will, with no warning or say in the matter.

 

So why on earth would the Organizers give them the choice of whether to fight or not?

 

(That being said, I like to believe that I listen to critique, and I am actually looking at a way to make optional arena battles a logical thing within the RPG right now)

[IcarusBen]

I never have the majority on my side. I honestly couldn't care if the majority was on my side. I'm not the majority, never said I was.

 

I know a lot of people disagree with me, and you may be right, but I'm sticking to my guns.