BZPRPG News and Discussion

[Palm]

 

Pffttt. Please. A war between psionics-users with no experience in other element-users versus elements-users with no experience in psionic-users?

 

I think slightly more than one or two families will be killed.[/underexaggeration]

 

 

I would like to point out that psionics were banned from being played before because they were over-powered in the first place. Although the Dasaka powers have been toned down a bit thanks to splitting up specific allocations of powers and their usage. Still.

 

Makes you think. hehe

[25K Now!]

The economic benefits to contact between the two cultures will be amusing.

 

inb4 bakumatsu, sakoku, Commodore Perry.

 

[Geardirector]

I don't even... wha... huh?

[NorikSigma]

I just hope there isn't a war based on bigotry and misunderstanding. Those just make my blood boil over.

[Geardirector]

While it wouldn't bother me as much, I think Norik makes a good point.

 

Why lower ourselves to fighting for such arbitrary causes that we on a base level know is wrong, and that I can imagine our characters would as well. It is a fools' errand, a simpleton's commision if you well. Have we not the strength of character to be better than this?

 

Let us go into battle, I say, as gentlemen. We will add "if you please" and "do you mind?" to our exclamations of "eat dirt and die" and "I'll see you in Karzahni". Lest our morals falter, let us step onto the field of battle in respect and know in our hearts that when all is said and done, it was a war most glorious, fought for causes worth fighting for, on either side.

 

I have raised the banner, the challenge has been issued, and I hold out my hand to ask: Will you do the same?

[NorikSigma]

Glad to have made a good difference.

[Toatapio Nuva]

It's up to us how we make our characters behave in the potential war or conflict. There are naturally those who think of the other culture in a shallow and xenophobic way, and those who are more understanding and tolerant.

[Geardirector]

And you're welcome to it. I was merely trying to be inspirational

[Ghosthands]

I think a lot of people here are forgetting just how different the Dasaka's morality system is to that of Mata Nui (and, really, to our own). What are Mata Nui's three virtues? Unity, Duty, and Destiny. These are the core principles by which a good Mata Nuian is expected to live their life.

 

In the Kentoku Archipelago, however, the core principles are different. Order, Power, and Honour. Their culture is built on these Zuto-Virtues. If these virtues are your moral reference-point, so to speak, then invading Mata Nui could very easily seem like the right thing to do:

• Order - the people of Mata Nui are disparate, split into six independent city-states, and they are still (compared to Kentoku) plagued by criminality and terrorism. By invading, the Dasaka would be able to unify the people of Mata Nui under the Empire and stamp out criminal elements, thus bringing Order.
• Power - taking over Mata Nui would greatly increase the Empire's resources. Their prerogative is to increase their own Power, and that would certainly do the trick.
• Honour - the Dasaka are militaristic, no argument there. A good fight would probably be considered very Honourable to them.

And not to mention the fact that the Mata Nuians worship a different Great Spirit, with different Virtues - that in itself could make them heathens in the Dasaka's eyes, and spreading Zuto Nui's worship would probably be seen as their duty to their god.

 

It's also clear that the Dasaka's information about Mata Nui is rather limited, so being 'understanding' is not as simple as it may seem

 

I'm not saying that's the only way the Dasaka Virtues can be interpreted, but I am saying that it's possible for Dasaka characters to support a war against Mata Nui without necessarily being 'shallow' or 'xenophobic'. The Dasaka's moral compass points in a different direction to the Mata Nuians', if you see what I mean, and that's part of what makes them so interesting. Please don't ignore that when you think about your character's viewpoint!

[NorikSigma]

I know, I was pointing to the players being bloodthirsty and too full of a thirst for war, and I was worried that peile might compromise their characters personality for the sake of war.

 

Of course, I know BZPRPGers aren't usually like that, but it would be important to point out that war is not an inevitability like some people might be led to believe.

[Voxumo]

I think a lot of people here are forgetting just how different the Dasaka's morality system is to that of Mata Nui (and, really, to our own). What are Mata Nui's three virtues? Unity, Duty, and Destiny. These are the core principles by which a good Mata Nuian is expected to live their life.

 

In the Kentoku Archipelago, however, the core principles are different. Order, Power, and Honour. Their culture is built on these Zuto-Virtues. If these virtues are your moral reference-point, so to speak, then invading Mata Nui could very easily seem like the right thing to do:

• Order - the people of Mata Nui are disparate, split into six independent city-states, and they are still (compared to Kentoku) plagued by criminality and terrorism. By invading, the Dasaka would be able to unify the people of Mata Nui under the Empire and stamp out criminal elements, thus bringing Order.
• Power - taking over Mata Nui would greatly increase the Empire's resources. Their prerogative is to increase their own Power, and that would certainly do the trick.
• Honour - the Dasaka are militaristic, no argument there. A good fight would probably be considered very Honourable to them.

And not to mention the fact that the Mata Nuians worship a different Great Spirit, with different Virtues - that in itself could make them heathens in the Dasaka's eyes, and spreading Zuto Nui's worship would probably be seen as their duty to their god.

 

It's also clear that the Dasaka's information about Mata Nui is rather limited, so being 'understanding' is not as simple as it may seem

 

I'm not saying that's the only way the Dasaka Virtues can be interpreted, but I am saying that it's possible for Dasaka characters to support a war against Mata Nui without necessarily being 'shallow' or 'xenophobic'. The Dasaka's moral compass points in a different direction to the Mata Nuians', if you see what I mean, and that's part of what makes them so interesting. Please don't ignore that when you think about your character's viewpoint!

You have a very good point... But this is once again one of the basic conflicts in society. What one may consider wrong another considers right.

 

Also I just have to say I felt the dasaka would have been a little smarter. I mean who basis their analysis on an entire island by a single trip? Wouldn't someone suggest perhaps sending another expedition?

[Snelly]

Oh, I'm fairly certain some sort of conflict is pretty much inevitable no matter how much you slice it. It might not start out as a full scale war per say but it could easily come to that. Especially with the Dasaka's current hate for Skakdi combined with just seeing the Mata Nuians as primitive heathens who would benefit from being part of the empire.

 

Not to mention there are a lot more men on Mata Nui that the Kentoku Archipelago. That to me sounds like an incentive for the Dasaka in itself.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Yoko Littner

[25K Now!]

"Attacker of the Killer Samurai Women From Kentoku!"

 

Now in cinemas!

 

On a more serious note.

 

Think of this as a ... crusade of sorts. :3

[Geardirector]

I actually like TPA's reasoning there, it's not too hard a parallel to imagine.

[NorikSigma]

And a violent, painful one at that.

[Geardirector]

The "primitive" thing will probably change once the Dasaka see Onu-Koro, although I suppose "primitive" here applies just as much to way of life as it does to technology.

[Constructelf]

You have a very good point... But this is once again one of the basic conflicts in society. What one may consider wrong another considers right.

 

Also I just have to say I felt the dasaka would have been a little smarter. I mean who basis their analysis on an entire island by a single trip? Wouldn't someone suggest perhaps sending another expedition?

So much this. If my memory serves me correctly, the European countries (Britain, France, not so much Spain) didn't go all conquest of the indigenous peoples after only discovering the Americas. While the Spanish got to "pillage and burn" very quickly, the most British and the French for quite a while was build a few towns, trade furs for metal goods, and send out explorers. And the cultures were a LOT more ethnocentric and in my opinion (YMMV), a lot more dumb than the Dasaka. So why can't our psionic warrior women do the same?

[25K Now!]

>Comparing early modern societies and tribal nations to late Heian Dasaka and tribal nation Mata Nui which is technically really modern in outlook

>Serious?

[Dapper-Sama]

...

 

Brinkmanship?

[NorikSigma]

@Hubert: That's because previous posters already assumed the Dasaka really were dumb bigots like the flawed comparisons, when they so clearly are not. In any case, both comparisoons offer a chance if peace. And honestly, our Akiri(even Ambages) wouldn't risk war with Psionics users even if the Dasaka wanted to. And the Umbralines don't seem so crazy either.

 

As much as a war is 'phun', it wold totally fly in the face of our calm-headed leaders.

 

In fact, they might even try to co-operate to capture the Piraka for their 'atrocities' on the Archipelago.

 

Which brings me to my original questiion. Are the atrocities stated just player-created details or official canon?

 

EDIT: Thanks, Dapper, almost forgot. MAD(mutually assured destruction) and brinkmanship would pull the two cultures away from war to some sort of compromise. That is assuming they even have a beef with each other in the first place.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Norik Of Gielinor

[shadow pridak money gang]

While it wouldn't bother me as much, I think Norik makes a good point.

 

Why lower ourselves to fighting for such arbitrary causes that we on a base level know is wrong, and that I can imagine our characters would as well. It is a fools' errand, a simpleton's commision if you well. Have we not the strength of character to be better than this?

 

Let us go into battle, I say, as gentlemen. We will add "if you please" and "do you mind?" to our exclamations of "eat dirt and die" and "I'll see you in Karzahni". Lest our morals falter, let us step onto the field of battle in respect and know in our hearts that when all is said and done, it was a war most glorious, fought for causes worth fighting for, on either side.

 

I have raised the banner, the challenge has been issued, and I hold out my hand to ask: Will you do the same?

 

Hey, you know who tried this? The South, in the American Civil War. You know who didn't handle that so well? William T. Sherman.

 

Google William T. Sherman.

 

That's what chivalry gets you.

 

-Tyler

Edited January 17, 2014 by Aegon Targaryen

[Mel]

>Comparing early modern societies and tribal nations to late Heian Dasaka and tribal nation Mata Nui which is technically really modern in outlook

>Serious?

 

Well, the Heine period, if you notice, did not include any extensive campaigns to foreign lands, so we have to improvise here. Besides Japan had trade with China and modern day Korea for ages, even during their supposed period of "isolation." The Dasaka have been in actual isolation for hundreds if not thousands of years. Charging in blind would be honorable maybe, but it would also be stupid. The Dasaka may be war-like, but it's pretty obvious that they also value wisdom.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Yukiko

[25K Now!]

I was more responding to Constructman's inaccurate comparison between the colonial powers and the Dasaka Empire of Kentoku.

[Aurora the cat]

 

While it wouldn't bother me as much, I think Norik makes a good point.

 

Why lower ourselves to fighting for such arbitrary causes that we on a base level know is wrong, and that I can imagine our characters would as well. It is a fools' errand, a simpleton's commision if you well. Have we not the strength of character to be better than this?

 

Let us go into battle, I say, as gentlemen. We will add "if you please" and "do you mind?" to our exclamations of "eat dirt and die" and "I'll see you in Karzahni". Lest our morals falter, let us step onto the field of battle in respect and know in our hearts that when all is said and done, it was a war most glorious, fought for causes worth fighting for, on either side.

 

I have raised the banner, the challenge has been issued, and I hold out my hand to ask: Will you do the same?

 

Hey, you know who tried this? The South, in the American Civil War. You know who didn't handle that so well? William T. Sherman.

 

Google William T. Sherman.

 

That's what chivalry gets you.

 

-Tyler

 

Ta-koro will not be given as a gift to the Rora.

[shadow pridak money gang]

Talk about...

 

scorched earth.

 

 

Anyway, this discussion is great - really, it is. Keep at it. Just remember that we're not really debating historical parallels here - they're totally okay to put up and all, but just try to keep it linked to the RPG as much as possible. I really don't want to have to slap an off-topic warning on this page.

 

-Tyler

[25K Now!]

That was bad.

 

You should feel ashamed.

 

Anyway, culture shock should be much more interesting than all-out-war.

[Geardirector]

Seconded

[sunflower]

Maybe we'll actually get some respectable naval battles.

 

Eh? :3

[Shadowhawk]

 

While it wouldn't bother me as much, I think Norik makes a good point.

 

Why lower ourselves to fighting for such arbitrary causes that we on a base level know is wrong, and that I can imagine our characters would as well. It is a fools' errand, a simpleton's commision if you well. Have we not the strength of character to be better than this?

 

Let us go into battle, I say, as gentlemen. We will add "if you please" and "do you mind?" to our exclamations of "eat dirt and die" and "I'll see you in Karzahni". Lest our morals falter, let us step onto the field of battle in respect and know in our hearts that when all is said and done, it was a war most glorious, fought for causes worth fighting for, on either side.

 

I have raised the banner, the challenge has been issued, and I hold out my hand to ask: Will you do the same?

Hey, you know who tried this? The South, in the American Civil War. You know who didn't handle that so well? William T. Sherman.

 

Google William T. Sherman.

 

That's what chivalry gets you.

 

-Tyler

 

Amen.

 

I can't think of a single real-life war that, no matter how it started or what the end result was, didn't involve blood, carnage, and immense loss of innocent life.

 

Because this is war we're talking about here. War, although sometimes justified, is invariably an ugly, brutal thing. War is what comes after diplomacy and chivalry fail. War, in its most elemental, realistic sense, is all about winning. By any means necessary. Period.

 

If the people want war, it doesn't matter what their leaders think, because the people outweigh and outnumber their leaders. Literally. Mob anger has no place for diplomacy and chivalry. Mobs have a one-track mind, and when it comes to fighting, that means all they want is to win. War is not a pleasant thing, never has been, and never will be, because then it would cease to be war. War is a violent, all-out conflict between two opposing forces, who have (hopefully) tried every nonviolent method of keeping peace, and failing, have resorted to removing their opponents via force. True war can't successfully mix with diplomacy and chivalry, because, like oil and water, it floats at a separate, lower level. It's primal, bestial, and unrefined. It's ugly. Admit it.

 

If we're going to talk about this, we need to use our brains. Out of character (OOC), we do need to respect one another, keep things polite, and remember that this is all just a friendly (and awesome, BTW) RPG where we can do awesome things via virtual avatars that we could never hope of doing in our actual lives.

 

In character (IC), however, we need to tone down the sappy 'please-no-fighting' attitude and act like real people. In war, real people don't lay down their weapons, because the feral instinct of self-preservation trumps everything else. In the heat of combat, someone else is trying to kill you, and because you want to live, you have to kill them first. I've read enough first-hand accounts by war veterans to know what I'm talking about.

 

Real people, people just as real in their mental processes as our characters should be, sometimes fight unjustified wars. Sometimes, real people are stupid. Therefore, it follows that sometimes our characters do stupid things too. Being stupid is often synonymous with being realistic, I'm afraid.

 

War. Is. Not. Diplomatic. Or. Courteous.

[Mel]

Maybe we'll actually get some respectable naval battles.

 

Eh? :3

 

People who can break ships with their minds vs. people who can control the sea.

 

Sounds legit.

 

In character (IC), however, we need to tone down the sappy 'please-no-fighting' attitude and act like real people. In war, real people don't lay down their weapons, because the feral instinct of self-preservation trumps everything else. In the heat of combat, someone else is trying to kill you, and because you want to live, you have to kill them first. I've read enough first-hand accounts by war veterans to know what I'm talking about.

 

Real people, people just as real in their mental processes as our characters should be, sometimes fight unjustified wars. Sometimes, real people are stupid. Therefore, it follows that sometimes our characters do stupid things too. Being stupid is often synonymous with being realistic, I'm afraid.

 

War. Is. Not. Diplomatic. Or. Courteous.

That would be a good point if we were actually fighting now. But we aren't.

 

Yes, it isn't realistic to have every character sue for peace, but neither is it to have everyone be bloodthirsty mongrels. The fact that there's an argument happening in IC now is a good thing, because it shows that the same society does not produce robots, but in fact different people with differing opinions. Furthermore, any war is going to be fought by the Menti, not the majority of the population, although they are necessary for support. Thus, a war would have to mean the majority of Toroshu (some of whom are possibly old/experienced enough to realize the cost of war) deciding that it was a good idea, and that's where we get our political intrigue. I'm sure it will be juicy.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Yukiko

[Shadowhawk]

 

In character (IC), however, we need to tone down the sappy 'please-no-fighting' attitude and act like real people. In war, real people don't lay down their weapons, because the feral instinct of self-preservation trumps everything else. In the heat of combat, someone else is trying to kill you, and because you want to live, you have to kill them first. I've read enough first-hand accounts by war veterans to know what I'm talking about.

 

Real people, people just as real in their mental processes as our characters should be, sometimes fight unjustified wars. Sometimes, real people are stupid. Therefore, it follows that sometimes our characters do stupid things too. Being stupid is often synonymous with being realistic, I'm afraid.

 

War. Is. Not. Diplomatic. Or. Courteous.

That would be a good point if we were actually fighting now. But we aren't.

 

Yes, it isn't realistic to have every character sue for peace, but neither is it to have everyone be bloodthirsty mongrels. The fact that there's an argument happening in IC now is a good thing, because it shows that the same society does not produce robots, but in fact different people with differing opinions. Furthermore, any war is going to be fought by the Menti, not the majority of the population, although they are necessary for support. Thus, a war would have to mean the majority of Toroshu (some of whom are possibly old/experienced enough to realize the cost of war) deciding that it was a good idea, and that's where we get our political intrigue. I'm sure it will be juicy.

 

Ah, but we will be fighting.

 

Maybe. Probably first with words; perhaps eventually with blades, circumstances warranting. I dunno.

 

Either way, it will be 'juicy', as you say. I love this game.

[EmperorWhenua]

So very j-j-ju-uicyyyyy

 

I'm glad you all are having this discussion because, whether you realize it or not, the choices you make in-game will have a great impact on the outcomes.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Daenerys Targaryen

[Observedhalo]

Either way we play this, it will be will interest to see how this will all pan out. Assuming war does come to pass, with the empires forces divided, a coup could easily be staged. That could be interesting to role play, be the results good or ill. Political conflict will be interesting, and soon factions could form among the clans.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Observedhalo

[Snelly]

Also think about this, if the Dasaka wage war against the koros, unity between the koros will quickly become stronger than it's ever been. As the koros clearly wouldn't stand a chance if they didn't work together.

 

So really, the Dasaka could inevitably cause Mata Nuians to further embrace unity, and become more powerful than ever. Wouldn't that be a bit ironic?

[Mr. House]

The Dasaka will invade. As we have seen in previous posts, jingoistic fervor is being stirred in the capitol. Within a month or two, Dasaka warships will sail. There will be opposition, naturally, but being an honorable people, the Dasaka will go to war anyway. The only realistic way the invasion could be stalled is if fears of internal rebellion (Fursic coup while troops are across the sea), overcome the fear of the Piraka. Or remotely, the Mata Nuiians send diplomats beforehand, which I doubt will happen.

 

In regards to who would win, I don't know. The Dasaka have psionic abilities, a large, established warrior class, a vast naval tradition, and enough money to support a war. However, there is underlying intriques and inter-clan tensions, and they haven't really much actual combat experience. The Mata Nuiians have a smaller navy, more land to defend, and powerful rogue elements within their borders. But they are hardened after centuries of war, their cities are well fortified, their militaries are varied and specialized, and they have more advanced technology.

 

And in regards to characters, I agree with Shadowhawk. We should take this far more realistically, not push our personal opinions and feelings through our characters. For instance, I have Tarotrix, a Colonel in the guard, a jingoistic, prideful Matoran who dislikes Toa and holds racist views towards Skakdi and Vortixx. I'm not going to have call for peace and diplomacy upon Dasaka landings, no. I'm going to write what I think the character would do in the situation. I'll have him call for war, try to rally the troops, push to take the fight to the Kentokus, and vow to put the Rora's head upon a stake. Exactly the thing a character with such a mindset would do.

[Shadowhawk]

Ninja'd. This was directed @ Yoko Littner's last post.

 

---

 

On the other hand, because the Dasaka will have to put an end to their inter-clan squabbling in order to wage effective war against the Koros, such an outcome will result in two massive global superpowers, each strong in Unity and hostile to the other.

In other words, a Cold War. Cue superspy subplots and nuclear bomb threats. Stralix powder cruise missiles, anyone?

[otter]

Ninja'd. This was directed @ Yoko Littner's last post.

 

---

 

On the other hand, because the Dasaka will have to put an end to their inter-clan squabbling in order to wage effective war against the Koros, such an outcome will result in two massive global superpowers, each strong in Unity and hostile to the other.

 

In other words, a Cold War. Cue superspy subplots and nuclear bomb threats. Stralix powder cruise missiles, anyone?

 

Sorry, did somebody say Cold War?

 

Wasn't I one of the people who said he liked such things, or was that from a post I never finished? But yeah, a Cold War would be acceptable, but an outright war would just be blegh.

[Mr. House]

To those interacting, I'll be gone until Sunday. Control of Larikon goes to the guys in Blackrock, control of Tarotrix goes to Justin Bieber, control of Jorruk goes to Kughii, and control of Shajs goes to the guys in the medical hut.

[Aurora the cat]

 

Stralix powder cruise missiles

[Visaru]

Please don't think I as a person like war and bloodshed, which is what some of these posts have been implying. In reality, peace is the way to go.

 

But in game we need more conflict to drive forwards the plot, and war allows for a lot of cool opportunities, so I really hope it breaks out. This game does not have as much activity as it did, and I think something like a war would keep us all engaged. As Lloyd pointed out, we tried the cool cold war with politics and scheming and it was terrible and riled up a ton of anger and conflict between the players themselves as tensions rose. All out war keeps the game interesting but gets rid of all the intrigue and much of the animosity between us since we know where loyalties lie.

 

If there is no war I will be severely disappointed.